'Everyone in US under virtual surveillance' - NSA whistleblower

[Moonbeam]

I think people just feel hopeless more than anything at this point. They just feel like hey I can't change the world but I can at least enjoy what is left of my life and not worry about it.

Now when you get to the point where you feel so hopeless you die to all hope, call me and we can go fishing. A world without hope is the most beautiful place you can imagine. In a world without hope, there is nothing to fear.

 

[Moonbeam]

OK? What are you going to do, stop posting on the net? Stop using electronic resources connected to anything else electronic? Try and make a case that the NSA shouldn't be monitoring things in an ever increasingly connected world on behalf of the society it is sworn to protect?

How massive must that electronic volume be? So they get your e-mail. And then what? They scan it, it has nothing of value in it, and it's either dumped or filed, to be dumped later. The scanner thinks it has something of value? It gets kicked out to a human who laughs at you and then hits the Who Cares? button.

Think of the volumes involved. Do you think they have time to start or the inclination to start oppressing the common man? They can't even get real intelligence processed fast enough to be actionable for gods sake...

Chuck

Did you think I was kidding when I said I'm just like you. Well that and the fact that aliens have hacked my email. They store themselves in SSD's. I have several I've hidden in bird houses hanging from my redwood trees.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

Now when you get to the point where you feel so hopeless you die to all hope, call me and we can go fishing. A world without hope is the most beautiful place you can imagine. In a world without hope, there is nothing to fear.

I meant hopeless with regards to being able to change anything. Not hopeless as in I want to kill myself. lol Moonie, you gotta stop taking everything so seriously/literally.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I'm much more worried about the borders continually being invaded, paychecks being invaded, etc. Those things have had, are, and will continue to have real affects. Compared to those things, this issue - and, it is an issue, I do agree with you there - is wwwaayyy down the list.

Chuck

So am I, doesn't mean I'll nonchalantly shrug off invasion of my privacy.

 

[hal2kilo]

I meant hopeless with regards to being able to change anything. Not hopeless as in I want to kill myself. lol Moonie, you gotta stop taking everything so seriously/literally.

He's only talking about killing the ego my friend.

 

[Nebor]

I think people just feel hopeless more than anything at this point. They just feel like hey I can't change the world but I can at least enjoy what is left of my life and not worry about it.

That's pretty much how I feel. Our society is on the road to destruction. Plummeting marriage & birth rates, skyrocketing divorce, depression, stratification, etc.

 

[irishScott]

Everyone's talking about the lack of outcry, outcry over what? What blatant invasion of privacy has the government done that the masses can identify with?

That's the thing, humans are reactionary by nature. Until people's personal interests are directly threatened, the vast majority don't give fuck. This is nothing new.

When the government eventually does step over the line, people will take action, and it will likely be the watergate of my generation.

 

[irishScott]

That's pretty much how I feel. Our society is on the road to destruction. Plummeting marriage & birth rates, skyrocketing divorce, depression, stratification, etc.

We've had all of those things before and survived them. Things will suck, probably for a while, but with effort they inevitably get better.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Everyone's talking about the lack of outcry, outcry over what? What blatant invasion of privacy has the government done that the masses can identify with?

That's the thing, humans are reactionary by nature. Until people's personal interests are directly threatened, the vast majority don't give fuck. This is nothing new.

When the government eventually does step over the line, people will take action, and it will likely be the watergate of my generation.

Unless those people plan their action via email, then the FBI will be there to hush them up for being terrorists.

 

[irishScott]

Unless those people plan their action via email, then the FBI will be there to hush them up for being terrorists.

And if non-violent political dissidents start getting arrested left and right, that will be the start of things.

Democracy was designed to limit corruption, not destroy it. Like all filters, it needs to be purged of the collected bullshite from time to time.

 

[piasabird]

With all the laws the Democrats keep passing, everyone is guilty of something.

 

[ch33zw1z]

And if non-violent political dissidents start getting arrested left and right, that will be the start of things.

Democracy was designed to limit corruption, not destroy it. Like all filters, it needs to be purged of the collected bullshite from time to time.

I strongly believe this will be tested in my lifetime.

 

[Darwin333]

Shit, now they're going to know I got a Crucial M4 256GB on a hotdeal. Get away from the doors and windows mom and dad!

I am with ya, fuck that 4th amendment bullshit. Hell, fuck all of them! We don't need no stickin speech or guns.

 

[Darwin333]

OK? What are you going to do, stop posting on the net? Stop using electronic resources connected to anything else electronic? Try and make a case that the NSA shouldn't be monitoring things in an ever increasingly connected world on behalf of the society it is sworn to protect?

How massive must that electronic volume be? So they get your e-mail. And then what? They scan it, it has nothing of value in it, and it's either dumped or filed, to be dumped later. The scanner thinks it has something of value? It gets kicked out to a human who laughs at you and then hits the Who Cares? button.

Think of the volumes involved. Do you think they have time to start or the inclination to start oppressing the common man? They can't even get real intelligence processed fast enough to be actionable for gods sake...

Chuck

Roughly 10 years ago I built a very nice top end computer. Full tower case, overclocked CPU, loads of RAM, 2 HDDs etc.... Today I carry virtually the same computer is carried around in my pocket. Storage is becoming cheaper everyday and technology is constantly improving. Maybe they can or maybe they can't automate "oppressing" the common man with the information they are supposedly collecting but you would be absurdly ignorant if you think they won't (if they don't already) have that ability very soon.

 

[Darwin333]

We've had all of those things before and survived them. Things will suck, probably for a while, but with effort they inevitably get better.

If by suck you mean most probably turn into a dictatorship, at least historically speaking when a democracy fails, I might agree.

 

[Darwin333]

Can't crunch things that are human bound.

What exactly would be "human bound"?

You can have all the processing power needed (which I'm sure, NSA does), and when it kicks out to a human to see what's what, if the human has 1000 hours of backlogged work this week, it's not going to matter.

Chuck

And they can't develop better algorithms (or whatever the hell you call the "scanning" software) to take out 95% or more of that human work?

 

[Darwin333]

This

And most people are so distracted by the red-team vs blue-team drama that they don't see what is actually happening.

You don't think that distraction isn't absolutely intentional do you?

 

[irishScott]

If by suck you mean most probably turn into a dictatorship, at least historically speaking when a democracy fails, I might agree.

You're assuming the people will just lie down and take it. If that's the case then the entire world is screwed and we'll have 1984 in a few decades. Such predictions have historically come... and gone. Case in point 1984 itself.

The beauty of democracy is ultimately the people can step in, and in America they usually do. Just look at SOPA and the outpouring of popular opposition in just 24 hours. That was largely over youtube, facebook, and wikipedia. Can you imagine what people would do if black helicopters started showing up everywhere kidnapping people out of their homes? If the government threatened to disenfranchise the people?

All the doom and gloom predictions I've heard are largely based on a perception of citizen complacency. Well yeah, we're a complacent people. Right up until we aren't. It takes more than the head of the CIA getting his email ransacked to spur large amounts of people to action. You have to affect people's lives personally en-masse, like SOPA would have.

To bring it back into the context of the thread, yes I'm sure the NSA is virtually tracking everyone. But they haven't actually done anything with it yet. By that I mean nothing most people care about. Nothing that really affects the lives of the average American. They've done stuff that hypothetically could affect the lives of the average American, but that's simply not enough to spur most people to action.

Now I've heard the argument that it will happen slowly, incrementally, so that the populace slowly conforms to some government conspiracy to shape the US into a de-facto dictatorship. Yeah well, better hope the government is run by a bunch of J Edgar Hoovers, because it would take generations for something like that to actually work. People greedy for power usually don't look too far beyond their own time.

Bottom line, doom and gloom theories are a staple of human history. In medieval Europe it was Muslim caliphs being the literal incarnations of the antichrist and judgement day was just around the corner. During the cold war a nuclear apocalypse was deemed inevitable and unavoidable by many. With the advent of the internet, the modern incarnation of annihilation myth is the government, in some vague and non-specific manner, turning into a bunch of evil men in suits who sit around circular tables in shadowy rooms and plot ways to extend their power. Hell just look at the sheer amount of video games and books based on the subject.

That's not to say we should be complacent or that things will be all rosy, but I don't buy the whole "democracy is doomed forever" view. It just makes no sense in light of even a limited survey of history. There are entire anthropological and psychological studies devoted to this annihilation fantasy phenomenon. Frankly my amateur opinion is simply the age old "afraid of what we don't understand". Culturally speaking, the internet is a new and relatively unknown thing. Like all great inventions, it has great potential for both good and evil uses. Well, so did/do nuclear weapons. We didn't nuke each other off the face of the planet, and likewise we won't use the internet to "nuke" democracy off the face of the planet.

 

[DAGTA]

You don't think that distraction isn't absolutely intentional do you?

I do, but most people don't understand that. Most people also have very little knowledge of history. The rich controlling everyone else is the same pattern since documented history started.

 

[3chordcharlie]

You're assuming the people will just lie down and take it. If that's the case then the entire world is screwed and we'll have 1984 in a few decades. Such predictions have historically come... and gone. Case in point 1984 itself.

The beauty of democracy is ultimately the people can step in, and in America they usually do. Just look at SOPA and the outpouring of popular opposition in just 24 hours. That was largely over youtube, facebook, and wikipedia. Can you imagine what people would do if black helicopters started showing up everywhere kidnapping people out of their homes? If the government threatened to disenfranchise the people?

All the doom and gloom predictions I've heard are largely based on a perception of citizen complacency. Well yeah, we're a complacent people. Right up until we aren't. It takes more than the head of the CIA getting his email ransacked to spur large amounts of people to action. You have to affect people's lives personally en-masse, like SOPA would have.

To bring it back into the context of the thread, yes I'm sure the NSA is virtually tracking everyone. But they haven't actually done anything with it yet. By that I mean nothing most people care about. Nothing that really affects the lives of the average American. They've done stuff that hypothetically could affect the lives of the average American, but that's simply not enough to spur most people to action.

Now I've heard the argument that it will happen slowly, incrementally, so that the populace slowly conforms to some government conspiracy to shape the US into a de-facto dictatorship. Yeah well, better hope the government is run by a bunch of J Edgar Hoovers, because it would take generations for something like that to actually work. People greedy for power usually don't look too far beyond their own time.

Bottom line, doom and gloom theories are a staple of human history. In medieval Europe it was Muslim caliphs being the literal incarnations of the antichrist and judgement day was just around the corner. During the cold war a nuclear apocalypse was deemed inevitable and unavoidable by many. With the advent of the internet, the modern incarnation of annihilation myth is the government, in some vague and non-specific manner, turning into a bunch of evil men in suits who sit around circular tables in shadowy rooms and plot ways to extend their power. Hell just look at the sheer amount of video games and books based on the subject.

That's not to say we should be complacent or that things will be all rosy, but I don't buy the whole "democracy is doomed forever" view. It just makes no sense in light of even a limited survey of history. There are entire anthropological and psychological studies devoted to this annihilation fantasy phenomenon. Frankly my amateur opinion is simply the age old "afraid of what we don't understand". Culturally speaking, the internet is a new and relatively unknown thing. Like all great inventions, it has great potential for both good and evil uses. Well, so did/do nuclear weapons. We didn't nuke each other off the face of the planet, and likewise we won't use the internet to "nuke" democracy off the face of the planet.

I'm not so sure that 1984 was intended as a literal 'this is exactly what is going to happen' sort of an exercise.

Some of the fantasy in the book has become pretty salient though: Cameras on every street corner, people more interested in the lottery than who is in Government.

I do wish the freedom loving types would be more concerned about this, rather than worrying exclusively about being allowed to keep their gun.

 

[chucky2]

What exactly would be "human bound"?

What do you mean, what exactly would be 'human bound'? Think about it: You've got the NSA supercomputers setup with logic+filters reading supposedly every email. Plus txt now of course if we're going to assume they're doing that also. Plus actual voice calls. In the entire US, plus, in all the other places in the world we're monitoring.

Stop and think for a minute how much pure information that is to process. Now realize that the logic+filters are going to cull some x amount of information out of the raw feed, to possibly be further processed by another set of supercomputers. Finally, at some point, y amount of information hits a real low level person (with the requesite security clearances of course, and NDA) for the first step in human processing. How much info do you think that person is getting put in their queue, given the truly massive (I'd almost say unimaginable) amount of raw data the NSA and other agencies process? The answer would be: More than the person could handle.

Now, I know we make fun of government around here, and a lot of it as warranted. I'd hope though that at the NSA and other agencies, where doing their job really is something the Fed should be doing and is actually important, they'd be taking things a little more more seriously than say those who hand out the Links card crack. So I've got to think, the intent of the system as setup isn't to get these folks my NewEgg receipt, or my e-mail where I'm asking my uncle how many oil filters he wants for the lake tractor, but rather, get these limited human assets as good as possible intercepts.

Even with such a system in place, given the amount of raw intelligence processed, each person is going to have a perpetual backlog of work to get through*. It is for this reason alone I'm not too worried about NSA doing this. The odds are just so massively low for any normal person in the US even getting contacted/truly monitored that it's a non-issue.

*: I'm talking about those that work at the NSA/CIA, not some bored security person at some US base whose in charge of monitoring base communications.

And they can't develop better algorithms (or whatever the hell you call the "scanning" software) to take out 95% or more of that human work?

They can. 95% of 1,000,000,000,000 though is still a really large number. Now you need the people to handle that. Then another set of people to handle their output. How big of a workforce do you want to have, how much security overhead do you want to have watching those people?

Chuck

 

[blankslate]

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.

 

[Saint Nick]

I love the response of "If you have nothing to hide..."

This country was built on life and liberty. Invasion of privacy violates the ideals our country was built on.

 

[Nebor]

We've had all of those things before and survived them. Things will suck, probably for a while, but with effort they inevitably get better.

Birth rates like ours (below replacement) have never ended with anything other than societal collapse. Factor in the birth rate of the kind of people that hate our society, and we're boned.

 

[irishScott]

I'm not so sure that 1984 was intended as a literal 'this is exactly what is going to happen' sort of an exercise.

Some of the fantasy in the book has become pretty salient though: Cameras on every street corner, people more interested in the lottery than who is in Government.

I do wish the freedom loving types would be more concerned about this, rather than worrying exclusively about being allowed to keep their gun.

A lot of those cameras are privately owned, and I'd say most people have always been more interested in the lottery than who's in government. If anything we have ready access to more information about our government now than at any other time in history.

Just look at wikileaks. Something like that would have been utterly impossible not 10 years ago. Or fuck-ups like Fast and Furious, which before the internet would likely have simply had no exposure to speak of.

Essentially most of the sum of human knowledge is available and readily searchable to the average citizen, within seconds. The 1984ish scenarios center on governments controlling literally all information. Well now the task of doing so has multiplied by a few dozen orders of magnitude.