Egyptians call to cancel peace with Israel

[Lemon law]

To Harabec,

The problem is that Israel has the current view that as long as it keeps a lopsided military superority, it does not have to confront the
right to return---and ignores that hatreds festering.---building them to new highs.---and then congradulates itself for the self restrain of
only half beating Lebanon to death---using collective punishment.----yes Israel has a right to defend itself---but that right does not extend an inch North
of the Rockets range---Israel had no right to bomb Beruit---your enemy is no longer a State---its a terrorist organization.

The world changed when the terrorist got the rocket---now they can stand a safe distance away---and your vaunted military can't stop it.
States like Iran and Saudie Arabia will now cheerfully look the other way as private citizens fund these rockets. Israel is no longer able to
ignore the harvest hatred brings---worse yet---the world will no longer allow this kind of collective punishment---ya done lost American public opinion on your latest rape of Lebanon---then you snubbed our secretary of State---made our losing venture in Iraq more difficult---and screwed up nuclear containment for Iran.-------and if Israel loses the USA's support---its game over.

So Israel best be thinking of ways to get the hatreds down----Israel greatest danger is an illusion of superiority. The terrorists are winning
and will keep winning until Israel starts to defuse the reason for terrorists hating Israel---at first in was Arab Xenophobia---since then Israel has earned the hatreds that have built up.----and now those hatreds will become huge liabilities---on that day the calculus changes.---its just the fact that no one in Israel has noticed yet.

 

[imported_toxigun]

yes Israel has a right to defend itself---but that right does not extend an inch North
of the Rockets range---Israel had no right to bomb Beruit---your enemy is no longer a State---its a terrorist organization

Of course it does. This terrorist organization operates from Beirut too. It has headquarters, weapons stores, command centers, communication networks and vehicles in many places in Lebanon, including Beirut. If you want to wipe Hezbollah off the face of the Earth, you must attack all of its infrastructures, not only the rocket launchers.

Anyway, you have a point about the hatred. But I believe that if this strike succeeds and Hezbolla will be eliminated (or even almost eliminated, doesn't matter) a peace agreement with the Lebanese government can be achieved. If there is a peace agreement between two states and trade relationship is established, no terrorist organization will dream about attacking Israel (which will be a source of money for many Lebanese), and if they do the government will stop them.
Egypt and Jordan are good examples. I don't know of any terrorists operating from Egypt or Jordan against Israel without being arrested.

 

[Harabec]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
To Harabec,

The problem is that Israel has the current view that as long as it keeps a lopsided military superority, it does not have to confront the
right to return---and ignores that hatreds festering.---building them to new highs.---and then congradulates itself for the self restrain of
only half beating Lebanon to death---using collective punishment.----yes Israel has a right to defend itself---but that right does not extend an inch North
of the Rockets range---Israel had no right to bomb Beruit---your enemy is no longer a State---its a terrorist organization.

The world changed when the terrorist got the rocket---now they can stand a safe distance away---and your vaunted military can't stop it.
States like Iran and Saudie Arabia will now cheerfully look the other way as private citizens fund these rockets. Israel is no longer able to
ignore the harvest hatred brings---worse yet---the world will no longer allow this kind of collective punishment---ya done lost American public opinion on your latest rape of Lebanon---then you snubbed our secretary of State---made our losing venture in Iraq more difficult---and screwed up nuclear containment for Iran.-------and if Israel loses the USA's support---its game over.

So Israel best be thinking of ways to get the hatreds down----Israel greatest danger is an illusion of superiority. The terrorists are winning
and will keep winning until Israel starts to defuse the reason for terrorists hating Israel---at first in was Arab Xenophobia---since then Israel has earned the hatreds that have built up.----and now those hatreds will become huge liabilities---on that day the calculus changes.---its just the fact that no one in Israel has noticed yet.

Ever since that...thing (I do not wish to hurt the feelings of pigs by calling him one) "Grand mufti" Amin we have been hated for simply living on earth.

Your suggestions might be applicable if we were dealing with people who's original grudge was as simple as "stolen land".
If it weren't for bastards such as the one mentioned above driving poorer people completely insane from childhood, we would be living peacefuly with arabs right now.

On the "right to return" - return to where, exactly?
Israel right now is nothing like it was 60 years ago.
What would we do with 5-8 million more arabs in Israel? we are nearly over-populated as it is. Need I remind you that Israel, despite being viewed as a world-destroying behemoth, is the size of a sandbox and the bottom half of it is still an undeveloped desert?
As of now, it is an issue that will forever be used by extremist leaders to deter any peace proccess and, due to real-world limitations, will not happen.

I have much more to add about this, but later. Dinner time...

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
To Harabec,

The problem is that Israel has the current view that as long as it keeps a lopsided military superority, it does not have to confront the
right to return---and ignores that hatreds festering.---building them to new highs.---and then congradulates itself for the self restrain of
only half beating Lebanon to death---using collective punishment.----yes Israel has a right to defend itself---but that right does not extend an inch North
of the Rockets range---Israel had no right to bomb Beruit---your enemy is no longer a State---its a terrorist organization.

The world changed when the terrorist got the rocket---now they can stand a safe distance away---and your vaunted military can't stop it.
States like Iran and Saudie Arabia will now cheerfully look the other way as private citizens fund these rockets. Israel is no longer able to
ignore the harvest hatred brings---worse yet---the world will no longer allow this kind of collective punishment---ya done lost American public opinion on your latest rape of Lebanon---then you snubbed our secretary of State---made our losing venture in Iraq more difficult---and screwed up nuclear containment for Iran.-------and if Israel loses the USA's support---its game over.

So Israel best be thinking of ways to get the hatreds down----Israel greatest danger is an illusion of superiority. The terrorists are winning
and will keep winning until Israel starts to defuse the reason for terrorists hating Israel---at first in was Arab Xenophobia---since then Israel has earned the hatreds that have built up.----and now those hatreds will become huge liabilities---on that day the calculus changes.---its just the fact that no one in Israel has noticed yet.

Israel has earned the haterd by simply forming. You can't change that.

I agree that the world is greatly changing, but you don't seem to realize the heading of the change.
Global terror has made the problem Israel deals with since it's inception into a global affair. Before 9/11, who knew ****** in the US about Mullahs? Who even cared? Islam was something belonging to the third world and Americans could live their life happily.
The worldwide pressure for democratizing ME countries goes greater, and eventually, Arabs will grow tired of hating Israel and will instead revert to developing their miserable countries.
You tell me, what business does Syria have supporting the Hizbullah and threatning Israel with war? What good will it bring for its people? What does Iran have to do with Israel at all?

So now the terrorists bring the problems Israel deal with to the rest of the world. Hizbullah is no different than any other terror organization and when facing terror, you must win.
If you loose, you only get more terror.

Israel CAN NOT and WILL NOT accept the right of return, as it means a conclusion to the Jewish state. Israel will go to war against the entire ME before accepting that. Requiring the right of return is no different than, during peace conversations, requesting Israel to cancel itself. It's absurd. Every Palestinian leader that doesn't want to negotiate on the right of returns and outright demands it does not want, and consequtively won't get peace.

If that means that the region will have war for 100 more years, so be it.

Are you of Arab roots too?

 

[Lemon law]

To Samur,

You too demonstrate that Israel is still deep in denial---yes arab Xenophobi started this---at every turn thereafter---Isreal has done everything posssible to drive those hatreds up not down. Early on, confronted with a choice of granting Palistinians equal rights---Israel unerringly took to the politics of a pig---making the Palistinian a second class citizen in the land of their own birth.---having a dominant military has allowed the Israelies to deny this---but its fundemental human rights that Israel is denying here---and that is wrong.

But even now confronting the right to return does not mean the end or the canceling of the State of Israel--but it is a necessary start---but at this point a vaible Palistinian state looks like a possible better course for defusing hatreds.

But one set of sentences spells out your position---"Israel can not and will not accept the right to return, as it means the conclusion of the Jewish State. Israel will go to war with the Mid-east before accepting that."---------translation---we stole it and our entire existance is based on that theft.

But have the Israelie people learned nothing in 3000 years?-------as a set of small tribes they were heap big ****** in brutalising other local tribes---but when they ran up against the real deal---the Babalonians, then the Egyptians, and later the Romans---the Israelies were made short work of.---and then and only then did they understand the retrobuition they had been dishing out to those weaker than them

Here we are 3000 years later-------and you pop out with---" If that means the region will have war for 100 more years, so be it." What arrogant hogwash from a pipsquek of a country. Without the USA to protect you---Israel will get squashed like a bug---tough talk---but Israel can't take on world public opinion---you are a wee might outnumbered.

But fate has planted Israel in a area surrounded by Arab nations---Israel now must prove it can live with its neighbors---and start defusing the hatreds---cause building up the hatreds won't work---because now the fear us tactic no longer works.

And by the way---I am third generation American---not a drop of arab blood as far as I know---but 1/4 Jewish blood----to me this is not a religious issue---its an issue of fundemental human fairness---and I can't endorse theft---and the treatment of the Palistinians people by Israel. But if Israel opts to be the threat to peace in the mid-east---Israel can be sent packing in very short order by an angry world.----or Israel can be part of a peace process that can build a nation like the UN intended it to be in 1948.

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
To Samur,

You too demonstrate that Israel is still deep in denial---yes arab Xenophobi started this---at every turn thereafter---Isreal has done everything posssible to drive those hatreds up not down. Early on, confronted with a choice of granting Palistinians equal rights---Israel unerringly took to the politics of a pig---making the Palistinian a second class citizen in the land of their own birth.---having a dominant military has allowed the Israelies to deny this---but its fundemental human rights that Israel is denying here---and that is wrong.
Okay it is a right. But lets be adults about this. What does that one little right have to do with the whole middle east fiasco?I donot see you arguing about the human rights the arabs states deny there own people everyday.
yet I see you saying --"at every turn thereafter---Israel has done everything posssible to drive those hatreds up not down."
So how does a small country like Israel deal with the rest of the middle east that desires there removal from the middle east? for that matter the destruction of the nation of Israel?
What you are describing is not the Israeli`s. It is the way these other middle eastern countries operate. You have peace for a brief moment then somebody does something stoopid like blowing themselves up in a crowded bus and killing 40 people. Then one of these middle eastern countries takes credit for the bombing. That makes no sense to continue to instigate this thing even when there is a brief peace.

But even now confronting the right to return does not mean the end or the canceling of the State of Israel--but it is a necessary start---but at this point a vaible Palistinian state looks like a possible better course for defusing hatreds.
The right to return is not an issue. You know little about the original history of my homeland after it took possesion of what is now calld Israel. We did not kick all the arabs out of the land. In fact we told the arabs they could stay and live.
but after 1948 a majority of the Jews who were living in arab states were expelled after Israel was created. So much for there right to return. huh???
the right to return in the scheme of things at present time is a non issue. people who do not understand the history of the region make it out to be a huge deal.

But one set of sentences spells out your position---"Israel can not and will not accept the right to return, as it means the conclusion of the Jewish State. Israel will go to war with the Mid-east before accepting that."---------translation---we stole it and our entire existance is based on that theft.
Translation they won it fair and square as the victors of war. Go to wikipedia and read about the history of that region. Nothing was stolen. Only the losers cry that their land was stolen. Sorry you grab the lions tale you will get bitten. Beeter yet you take the lions cubs and the lion comes looking for you!

But have the Israelie people learned nothing in 3000 years?-------as a set of small tribes they were heap big ****** in brutalising other local tribes---but when they ran up against the real deal---the Babalonians, then the Egyptians, and later the Romans---the Israelies were made short work of.---and then and only then did they understand the retrobuition they had been dishing out to those weaker than them
YES!! Finally what you say is almost correct. With over whelming force as was sent against Israel in Bible times or previous to the state of israel. You get defeated. So whats the issue?
Things have changed now? Well the principle applys you would think. But the bottom line is almost every war that Israel has fought when confronted with superior forces and those superior forces lost. I find the about paragraph of yours to sort of short sided.

Here we are 3000 years later-------and you pop out with---" If that means the region will have war for 100 more years, so be it." What arrogant hogwash from a pipsquek of a country. Without the USA to protect you---Israel will get squashed like a bug---tough talk---but Israel can't take on world public opinion---you are a wee might outnumbered.

let me ask you this Lemon law. In the war of 1948. When niether the United states nor the Soviet Union was involved Israel still managed to win.

To quote wikipedia--1948 War of Independence
Main article: 1948 Arab-Israeli War
Immediately following the Declaration of Independence of the State of Israel, Egyptian, Syrian, Iraqi, Jordanian, and Lebanese forces invaded the newly formed state on all fronts. In a desperate and costly war characterized by use of makeshift armaments and resourceful tactics, Israel eventually repelled the attacking armies, and then advanced its forces to occupy some of the territory set aside under the Partition Plan for the Arabs and for the City of Jerusalem. A cease fire agreement was signed between the two sides, with the current front line becoming the boundary between Israel and the Arab territories. As a result of the 1948 war, Israel controlled all the territory allotted to them under the Partition Plan, much of the territory allotted to the Arabs under the Plan, and half of what was to be the UN-administered City of Jerusalem. The remaining Arab territories were the West Bank and the Gaza Strip; the West Bank was administered by Jordan, while the Gaza Strip was administered by Egypt.

So let me make sure I understand your argument. You are saying that if the arabs confronted the Israeli`s with superior forces and drove israel into the Ocean they could occupy Israel as victors of war??
But let Israel do the same and they have to return it, as a good faith peace gesture?

But fate has planted Israel in a area surrounded by Arab nations---Israel now must prove it can live with its neighbors---and start defusing the hatreds---cause building up the hatreds won't work---because now the fear us tactic no longer works.
Israel has proven it can live with its neighbors. If left alone. It is the nieghbors that have no desire to live with israel. It is the arabs who must defuse this silly fighting. You would think by now the arabs would get tired of having their butts handed to them everytime the go to war with Israel! The arabs don`t use fear tactics?
The difference is the arabs have no clue and IMO should leave well enough alone. Knowing full well Israel almost always gives back the land won in wars.

And by the way---I am third generation American---not a drop of arab blood as far as I know---but 1/4 Jewish blood----to me this is not a religious issue---its an issue of fundemental human fairness---and I can't endorse theft---and the treatment of the Palistinians people by Israel. But if Israel opts to be the threat to peace in the mid-east---Israel can be sent packing in very short order by an angry world.----or Israel can be part of a peace process that can build a nation like the UN intended it to be in 1948.

I am a full blooded 100% Jew. you being a 1/4 blood is actually unimportant. there are alot of people even arabs in the midle east who have some jewish blood in them. So go figure. Its not about human fairness at all.
You are portraying this to be about Israeli fairness. As if they are the blame for all these wars that take place in the mifddle east.
The only way the arabs will be happy is if tomorrow they were to wake up and the land of Israel was in Alaska or somewhere else.
Its hard to talk or even try to reason with people who twist history to meet there needs. or even worse who really need to read some history.
let me leave you with this...
name one instance where israel invaded another country just because it wanted the land?
name me one instance where an Israeli went into a arab nation and blew up a bus or a daycare center or an eating establishment by strapping explosive to themselves and committing suicide?
I guarantee you that if you leave the israeli`s 100% alone. That means no kidnappings, no suicide bombers, etc etc, the Israeli`s will be content to stay in there land.
But has the Israeli`s ever been left alone since 1948....Nooo!!

lemon Law--you are right the Israeli`s do have superior lopsided military capability.
Without that capabilitie there would be no land of israel!
In another thread you go on about Israel learning to live with its arab neighbors. That sounds all good to people who do not understand that there neighbors want the destruction of Israel. There is nothing that Israel can do to change that. Except to be strong and vigilant.
there are alot of people on these forums who say kiss and make up. That will not happen. Sorry! Sounds all goodie goodie. But its not reality!

 

[Lemon law]

To Irate Leaf,

Therein lies the rub---you portray it as always the Arabs fault and none of Israel's---sorry--you are both deeply in the wrong---and the right to return is the issue that drives much of this.

But you can lead the clueless to water and be unable to make them drink the water of reality. You think its business as usual---but the world has changed.

But we are argueing opinions---wait a few months and I am guessing you will see I am right.
As the events I predict will start to happen.

 

[kobymu]

As a not so young Israeli that was born and raised in Israel and has live and dealt with the Middle East on a day by day basis, I don?t know if you are simply naive or worse.

The problem is that Israel has the current view that as long as it keeps a lopsided military superority, it does not have to confront the right to return
plain old wrong.

and ignores that hatreds festering.---building them to new highs
where are not the main contributors to that growing hatred, there are others that contribute much more then us.

and congradulates itself for the self restrain of only half beating Lebanon to death---using collective punishment.
ohhh , poor Lebanon, all they wanted was to be left alone while other countries use it territory, through an extremely well armed organization called the Hezbollah, to lunch attacks on Israel, is not like their territory is their responsibility. And its not like the Hezbollah has a political representation in Lebanon.

-yes Israel has a right to defend itself
We really don?t, not in your opinion anyway. You're just giving us a sympathetic line so the readers wont think you are not completely biased but i see through you. My proof:

but that right does not extend an inch North of the Rockets range---Israel had no right to bomb Beruit
You are a military master mind did you know that? :laugh:

your enemy is no longer a State---its a terrorist organization.
unless its Syria, then the distinction isn?t so easy, but I diverse.

The world changed when the terrorist got the rocket---now they can stand a safe distance away---and your vaunted military can't stop it.
unless we are willing to kill all the civilians with them, the rockets are not the problem, they never were.

States like Iran and Saudie Arabia will now cheerfully look the other way as private citizens fund these rockets.
now ?!?! spin much?

Israel is no longer able to ignore the harvest hatred brings
and so is the UK (watch the news recently), and US (9/11), and i got more where that come from.

worse yet---the world will no longer allow this kind of collective punishment---ya done lost American public opinion on your latest rape of Lebanon---then you snubbed our secretary of State
and than that thing in the UK happened, so what's plan B?

made our losing venture in Iraq more difficult-
sympathy rising?wait for it?.. now!

and screwed up nuclear containment for Iran.
"excellent work guys we managed to confused them, and somehow blame Israel"
spin spin spin all day long.

and if Israel loses the USA's support---its game over.
if Israel will lose US support it wont be game over, it would be a different game all together.

So Israel best be thinking of ways to get the hatreds down----Israel greatest danger is an illusion of superiority
that?s why we don?t settle for mere superiority, we want ridicules superiority

The terrorists are winning and will keep winning until Israel starts to defuse the reason for terrorists hating Israel
not with ridicules superiority V.2

at first in was Arab Xenophobia---since then Israel has earned the hatreds that have built up and now those hatreds will become huge liabilities
see above.

on that day the calculus changes
nhaaa we where always better in math then them.

its just the fact that no one in Israel has noticed yet.
yeah, that and the apocalypse. Behold, a prophet.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Lemon Law, and other lefties too,

Perhaps this idea will be strange to you, but the best way to ensure a peaceful ME is by the existance of an absurdly strong Israel, one that no Arab country wants to confront.
It worked until now, no Arab country chose to directly attack Israel for the last 33 years.
However, terror organizations which have no such regard to their hosting countries and the wellbeing of Arab citizens have chosen to do so, so the game has moved on.
Israel will address these issues just as it did in Gaza and the West Bank; The never-ending stream of terror originating there is kept in check by the IDF for years now. The success rate in preventing terror attacks is well beyond 90%, or even more.
As for Lebanon, they will understand, following the war, that they should restrain Hizbullah or never live proper life again. That's good too.

 

[kobymu]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Lemon Law, and other lefties too,

Perhaps this idea will be strange to you, but the best way to ensure a peaceful ME is by the existance of an absurdly strong Israel, one that no Arab country wants to confront.
It worked until now, no Arab country chose to directly attack Israel for the last 33 years.
However, terror organizations which have no such regard to their hosting countries and the wellbeing of Arab citizens have chosen to do so, so the game has moved on.
Israel will address these issues just as it did in Gaza and the West Bank; The never-ending stream of terror originating there is kept in check by the IDF for years now. The success rate in preventing terror attacks is well beyond 90%, or even more.
As for Lebanon, they will understand, following the war, that they should restrain Hizbullah or never live proper life again. That's good too.

7/10, i have a better one:

Lemon Law, and other lefties too,

name an arab country that was willing to make peace with isreal, and isreal didn?t wanted to make peace with them.

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
To Irate Leaf,

Therein lies the rub---you portray it as always the Arabs fault and none of Israel's---sorry--you are both deeply in the wrong---and the right to return is the issue that drives much of this.

But you can lead the clueless to water and be unable to make them drink the water of reality. You think its business as usual---but the world has changed.

But we are argueing opinions---wait a few months and I am guessing you will see I am right.
As the events I predict will start to happen.

No we are not arguing opinion!
I am arguing as a person born and schooled in Israel. I understand better than you do that Israel doe not care what the world things. Nor do they have too.
if you check out your history which for some reason you refuse to.
You will find that it was not Israel who attacked the arabs first in the 1948 war.
It was the very arabs who you believe Israel should suck up to in the name of peace.

from 1948 til present day Israel has always given back land that it won during wars.
there is no debating that fact.
There is land which they have that is hugely debated as to who owns that land.
We are talking about land whose ownership is clear cut and not debated.

Again we are not arguing opinions I am arguing fact. You are attempting to be somebody who believes they know the issues.
All the arab world has to do is a few minor things and there will be peace.
none of this kiss and make yp lovey dovey stuff the liberals want.
The arabs ned to do 2 little things and there will be peace.
Its very simple really....
The arabs need to acknowledge Israel`s right to exist as a country on its present location.
Then they need to leave them alone - no suicide bombing, no missles being lobbd at them, no kidnapping of troops. Thats not very hard is it?


You Lemon and others this mideast agreement will not last very long at all. It one missle is fired at Israel with the peacekeping force in place and nothing substantial is done, then Israel will be forced to act. With or without the UN Peacekeeping force in place.

lemon law mind you unless the arabs recognize isarael and stop calling for there death and destruction there will never be peace!

those 2 items are shall we say - All Israel really wants.

 

[kobymu]

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
...
lemon law mind you unless the arabs recognize isarael and stop calling for there death and destruction there will never be peace!

those 2 items are shall we say - All Israel really wants.

that and an oil field in the negev.

 

[linkgoron]

Originally posted by: kobymu

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
...
lemon law mind you unless the arabs recognize isarael and stop calling for there death and destruction there will never be peace!

those 2 items are shall we say - All Israel really wants.

that and an oil field in the negev.

Only 1?