Egyptians call to cancel peace with Israel

[woland223]

I was reading this Forum.. I think I have a few comments

SamurAchzar-

Stay safe!!!...... I like your posts... its sounds like things are getting a little dangerous over there... Keep posting but please be careful.

Gamer X-

what drugs are you on??? ... I had NO IDEA that people like you existed. There seems to be a serious lack of reality in the world you live in... I don't live in Israel.. I don't live in Egypt.. But you can't seriously really believe all the garbage you have been spewing???? I would say you really need to relax. The death / extermination people in Israel isn't going to make your life any better. Does the Koran really teach such hatred? I thought (but could be wrong) that Islam was supposed to be the religion of peace????

More thoughts..

about US selling weapons to Egypt...

Someone said something about not giving them are finest and best stuff....

Well I really hope we (I live in the US) have not given Egypt our best weapons... M1 tanks I think are currently the worlds best tank design... I suspect that we will regret selling/giving Egypt such an advanced weapon.... I was very surprised to learn we had sold them Apaches also .. bad move on our end... I really hope we knew what we were doing.

but.. with that said... no mater what weapons the Egyptian army has, its the training that really matters. Unless Egypt is serious about training its army, I don't think that they will do any better in a war with Israel then they have done in the past.

The real reason why the American Army does so well is our training. I suspect the Army in Israel has better training and is more motivated then the US Army. I have total confidence that they can get the job done even if they are attacked by Egypt with American Tanks and Helicopters. I just hope that never happens.

just a few more thoughts

About The Merkava tanks being damaged... As I understand it... they are VERY good tanks.. (as good as U.S. made M1A3 tanks??? don't know).. But I do know that they are run by a very well trained Army...

but that doesn't mean that they can not be damaged. I suspect that the attacks may have injured or killed crew members and even damaged some of them....but I seriously doubt that any Merkava tanks were destroyed, my guess is.. most if not all of them were repaired / cleaned up and put back into action the very next day, or if not the next day, close to it.


Here is an interesting link for everyone to look at.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys&eurl=

I found it totally amazing... After watching that, I don't think I will ever think the same way about news coming from the region ever again.

If the Arabs want peace and want us to stop helping Israel, then two things have to happen.

1. They have to stop trying to kill us... (both the US and Israel)...

It makes no sense to me that on one hand they call for the death of America and Americans and on the other hand want us to stop supporting Israel... Most of us in the U.S. are not that stupid...

2. They have to start telling the truth and stop the lies... How can we believe a single thing that comes out of the Middle East with links like the one I just gave? And Gamer X please.. was that all Israeli lies????.... mmm ok....

I'm sick of the Arab lies.... I'm sick of the press giving us BS and calling it news.... I know that some times Israel does things that are wrong... I know that the U.S. does things that are wrong... None of us are Perfect... That DOES NOT give Arabs the moral ground to attack us or Israel ???? The U.S. would be sooo happy if the Arab nations calmed down... stopped trying to kill everyone thats different from them... and relaxed... I'm amazed at the hatred they have for sooo much of the world.

One last thought.... If you poke the dog long enough he will bite you!!!




sooo what does this mean?

???? ???? = Atrocious ermine

???????

 

[SamurAchzar]

woland223, Thanks

sooo what does this mean?

???? ???? = Atrocious ermine

???????

You got that right (although "Cruel Weasel" fits, too)

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: Aimster
& Egypt's military is not designed for an offensive attack. It is all defensive.

Egypt has no intentions of attacking Israel or cutting off relations.

The two nations and the people are friends.

/Thread

You mean the dictator leader of Egypt is at peace with Israel. The average Egyptian gal/guy on the street has no love for Israel. I've always said that once democracy reigns in the Middle-East and the true opinions of the people in ME start being heard that Israel should start preparing for a all out war.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: Dari
Why are people under the illusion that India and Israel favor each other? Nothing could be further from the truth. India has always supported the Arab cause. That's why when Indians kill hundreds of muslims, you don't hear a peep from the Arab world.

The only friend Israel really has in Asia is China. Let's not forget that China supports Pakistan, which is India's arch foe.

China supports whoever buys the most weapons from them or is willing to sell them the most US military weapons to them.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Dari
Why are people under the illusion that India and Israel favor each other? Nothing could be further from the truth. India has always supported the Arab cause. That's why when Indians kill hundreds of muslims, you don't hear a peep from the Arab world.

The only friend Israel really has in Asia is China. Let's not forget that China supports Pakistan, which is India's arch foe.

China supports whoever buys the most weapons from them or is willing to sell them the most US military weapons to them.

On the contrary the US has only become freinds with India to counter the China threat.

 

[woland223]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
woland223, Thanks

sooo what does this mean?

???? ???? = Atrocious ermine

???????

You got that right (although "Cruel Weasel" fits, too)

LOL... nice ... very nice... I sure wish I could read Hebrew

 

[Lemon law]

To Samur Achzar,

What you fail to see if the future trend line----Israel---with its powerful military is surrounded by far vaster populations that now hate Israel with a passion. The existing governmental leaders that were hostile to Israel---are rational enough to refrain from an attack--but would if it were remotely possible and survivable---so these leaders are rational enough to enforce the status quo. And an uneasy and untrustful general shooting war is avoided.

But in the near future the range of the missles in terrorist and in insurgent groups hands is going to increase---its the nature of technology---and soon Southern Lebanon is not going to be the only spot on earth where such missles can be launched from to enperil greater Israel proper.---so everyone with a eye to the future can see that if I am right---it will be terrorists groups driving the agenda. Lets say such a group sets up in Jordan---without the knowledge and consent of the Jordanian government---and starts peppering Israel with Missles---and then disappears into the night.---and other groups do the same from within the borders of other sorverign nations surrounding Israel. Even if those national leaders do the utmost to prevent such hit and run attacks they will likely be powerless to stop many of them--then and into the future.---without making their nation into a total police state.

Then the question becomes---will Israel then engage in an a orgy of collective punishment against all of its neighbors?---like it did in Lebanon?---and you can see exactly how well its working there?----because now Hezbollah is more popular than ever.-----------------this is simply the trend line for the future---which means its a new ball game---and the conventional wisdom that has kept this simmering caldron in stalemate for so many years may be developing leaks.---and turning up the heat may be the dead wrong approach.

The other point is---thus far---its conventional explosives being pegged at Israel---that have a limited blast range---and somewhat random accuracy---but its well within a terrorists groups capacity to use biological weapons---or even dirty bombs using mere radioactive material---it would not take many such weapons to really up the stakes---while one might hope a national leader would be rational enough to never consider those type of things---can we expect the same of very angry terrorists?

Please understand I am advocating nothing---I am just reading the tea leaves---nor do I give terrorists any ideas they don't already have.

But the days of Israelie military might making right may be already as obsolete as the the buggy whip.---and from now on it will just be counterproductive.

 

[5150Joker]

Lemon, what's--with--all---the-----------da---shes?

 

[SamurAchzar]

Very well then,

What you fail to see if the future trend line----Israel---with its powerful military is surrounded by far vaster populations that now hate Israel with a passion.

It's always been this way. In fact, things were much worse in the past, with the Arabs having a relatively much stronger force than they have today. Israel had nowhere as advanced weapons, was weaker financially, had less population and the Arabs got USSR backing. They went to war and lost.

The existing governmental leaders that were hostile to Israel---are rational enough to refrain from an attack--but would if it were remotely possible and survivable---so these leaders are rational enough to enforce the status quo. And an uneasy and untrustful general shooting war is avoided.

Correct. That's a result of past time wars.
But why do they want to destroy Israel? Is it because it's killing Lebanese, or is it because they see a democratic neighbour as a threat and are humiliated by their past attempt to destroy it?

But in the near future the range of the missles in terrorist and in insurgent groups hands is going to increase---its the nature of technology---and soon Southern Lebanon is not going to be the only spot on earth where such missles can be launched from to enperil greater Israel proper.

1. It seems that Israel has taken very good care of the longer range rockets Hizbullah has. They are currently only firing the short range 120mm Katyushas.
Long range missiles are carried by trucks and are much more vulnerable.
You can't hide such trucks so easily.

2. Israel has, and is developing anti missiles systems capable of shooting down long range missiles. The Katyushas are too small to detect and honestly don't inflict enough damage to justify firing an Arrow missiles at, but the heavier rocketry can be shot down.

---so everyone with a eye to the future can see that if I am right---it will be terrorists groups driving the agenda. Lets say such a group sets up in Jordan---without the knowledge and consent of the Jordanian government---and starts peppering Israel with Missles---and then disappears into the night.---and other groups do the same from within the borders of other sorverign nations surrounding Israel. Even if those national leaders do the utmost to prevent such hit and run attacks they will likely be powerless to stop many of them--then and into the future.---without making their nation into a total police state.

Then we'll have another Black September. Do you think King Adbullah will sit back while terrorists kidnap his country? It's simply not going to happen. Unlike Israel, Arab leaders aren't concerned with civil life loss, even as its their civilians - as long as the perpetrator isn't Israel.

Then the question becomes---will Israel then engage in an a orgy of collective punishment against all of its neighbors?

No need, will not happen, see above. And if it does - then it's an all out war.

---like it did in Lebanon?---and you can see exactly how well its working there?----because now Hezbollah is more popular than ever.-----------------this is simply the trend line for the future---which means its a new ball game

First of all, I've not seen any piece of evidence claiming Hizbullah is stronger than ever.
Secondly, you have to make a difference between liking Hizbullah and supporting another attack, yielding similar results, on Israel.
Do you SERIOUSLY think the Lebanese public will be stupid enough to encourage another attack like this? They can hate Israel for all they like - it's not like they liked it before. But they will NOT support more aggression towards Israel, at least not as long as they are cited on the "Billing Address".

---and the conventional wisdom that has kept this simmering caldron in stalemate for so many years may be developing leaks.---and turning up the heat may be the dead wrong approach.

No, it's working just fine. It's people like you who overcomplicate things. Don't forget it's the ME, it works in a rather primal sort of way.

The other point is---thus far---its conventional explosives being pegged at Israel---that have a limited blast range---and somewhat random accuracy---but its well within a terrorists groups capacity to use biological weapons---or even dirty bombs using mere radioactive material---it would not take many such weapons to really up the stakes---while one might hope a national leader would be rational enough to never consider those type of things---can we expect the same of very angry terrorists?

Of course not, and that's why those terrorists must not be allowed to exist, at any price. That's why US is hunting down Osama.

Please understand I am advocating nothing---I am just reading the tea leaves---nor do I give terrorists any ideas they don't already have.

But the days of Israelie military might making right may be already as obsolete as the the buggy whip.---and from now on it will just be counterproductive.

That's what you think. There's no solution other than a military one to deal with those who seek and publicly call for your demise, and there has never been.
The new age has corrupted the Western thought, values and morals. Fighting for your survival seems like a thing you only see on Lost and terrorists are romantic Freedom Fighters - and all the while, the clock ticks until a WMD goes off in some US city.

I'd like to think that's an age that will past someday, when people get some sense knocked into their collective heads. 9/11 went some length for explaining what we are ALL - yes, you, and I, US, Israel, UK, Indonesia (Bali, remember?), and many more - up against.

 

[5150Joker]

Samur there is no larger terrorist agenda. Every single so-called terrorist group has their own individual agenda and goal. While its popular today to try to group them all into a single monster and claim it's a common problem for the nations you listed it's really not. The people bent on Israel's destruction are completely focused on Israel and it's entirely Israel's problem. If anything, Americans have already surrendered enough national interests, lives, money and freedom just to protect Israeli interests and have been doing so long before 9/11. Personally I don't think Israeli help in joint military tech development is worth the cost America has paid and continues to pay. The welfare state needs to be let loose and let it fend for itself, maybe it will finally learn to behave itself as a result and there might finally be some peace and less paranoia about terrorism.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Sorry, but I just don't get it.

Every single so-called terrorist group has their own individual agenda and goal. While its popular today to try to group them all into a single monster and claim it's a common problem for the nations you listed it's really not.

All the same. All are fundamentalists, all are Islamic, all object the American - Western - way of life. All of them attempt to maximize civilian casualities. There's a very clear connecting line between all of them and I can't see how you don't realize it. Of course, they are geographically apart, and might have different LOCAL objectives, but they are all the same, and none of them stop when meeting these objectives.

The people bent on Israel's destruction are completely focused on Israel and it's entirely Israel's problem.

Al Qaeda and the likes target US way before they target Israel. The ones dealing with Israel are the small players, and Israel more than takes care of them (Hamas, etc.).

f anything, Americans have already surrendered enough national interests, lives, money and freedom just to protect Israeli interests and have been doing so long before 9/11.

What sacrifice - other than direct aid in money - has the US made for the wellbeing of Israel? Do you think siding with the opponents - like Iran - or playing the passive, cowardice role like France will do the US better?
Was the invasion to Iraq at '91 a result of Israeli interests, or was it because of Kuwait?
Was the Vietnam war related to Israel? Afghanistan? Iraq?

Not even ONE US soldier died protecting Israel's interest. Israel stands for what the US stands for - at least, more than any other country in the Middle East and Africa.
US and Israel are allies just like US and UK are allies, and if anything, US lost many more lives - MANY more - protecting UK's interests.

Personally I don't think Israeli help in joint military tech development is worth the cost America has paid and continues to pay.

It's much more than joint military development since many years ago. When dozens of leading American companies have signifcant R&D operations in Israel, when people like Warren Buffet buy Israeli companies for Billions, Intel trusts the Haifa R&D center with its entire main product line - Pentium M/Core - and every respected investment fund targets Israel before even targeting Europe - you know the relation between the countries is much more significant than you try to picutre.

The welfare state needs to be let loose and let it fend for itself, maybe it will finally learn to behave itself as a result and there might finally be some peace and less paranoia about terrorism.

Calling Israel a "wellfare state" when the financial support given by the US is roughly 1% of it's GDP is absurd. BTW, almost all of the monetary aid given to the US is in the form of credits for purchasing US goods made in the US. That's why the IDF even buys tents from the US instead of producing them locally, and doesn't source weapons and equipment from anywhere other than the US.
Up until the late 60's, US has not intervened in favor of Israel. Israel has more than protected itself back then, but wasn't subject to American foreign policy.


I wonder how supporting Iran, either actively or by ignoring the situation in the ME, will enhance your freedom or any other interest you may have.
I don't know what your roots are and background is, but it seems like Israel hits a soft spot.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Sorry, but I just don't get it.

Well that's no surprise given the laughable things you say here.

All the same. All are fundamentalists, all are Islamic, all object the American - Western - way of life. All of them attempt to maximize civilian casualities. There's a very clear connecting line between all of them and I can't see how you don't realize it. Of course, they are geographically apart, and might have different LOCAL objectives, but they are all the same, and none of them stop when meeting these objectives.

Their religious connection doesn't bind them at all. They're relatively independent of each other with their own ambitions and goals. They don't share in a common philosophy to convert the "kafirs" as much as you'd like to get everyone to believe. Israel would love for people to think there's a larger connection between them so it can have conduct unchecked violence against it's downtrodden Palestinian (and now Lebanese) neighbors but that's a far cry from reality.

Al Qaeda and the likes target US way before they target Israel. The ones dealing with Israel are the small players, and Israel more than takes care of them (Hamas, etc.).

Al Qaeda is pretty much a buzz word these days. Their infrastructure has been pretty much crippled. Furthermore their objective was to get the US out of Saudi Arabia and since 9/11 their organization has pretty much been left in ruins anyway.

What sacrifice - other than direct aid in money - has the US made for the wellbeing of Israel?

Well leave it to an Israeli to shrug off American sacrifices for Israel. Ok I'll bite: Politically the US has antogonized a large portion of the world by exclusively siding with Israel every single time. By giving it a blank check to do whatever it wants, it led to 9/11 and the deaths of >3000 Americans and they are the ones that were unwilling sacrifices for Israel's gain. Furthermore, USS liberty soldiers also paid with their lives when Israel bombed them. Financially the US gives a lot more than just aid to Israel: http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240


Also: http://www.wrmea.com/archives/Jan_Feb_2001/0101015.html

Do you think siding with the opponents - like Iran - or playing the passive, cowardice role like France will do the US better?
Was the invasion to Iraq at '91 a result of Israeli interests, or was it because of Kuwait?
Was the Vietnam war related to Israel? Afghanistan? Iraq?

Iraq was quickly removed from Kuwait but the subsequent sanctions that crippled the country and caused millions of Iraqis to die was a direct benefit for Israel. It destroyed one of it's chief antagonists ability to strike against Israel and/or fund groups like Hezbollah/Hamas (UN food for oil scam not withstanding) that could do it harm. Neoconservatives in this country have always focused on securing Israel first and foremost and our recent invasion of Iraq is proof of that; Israel kept pushing for the US to take out Syria while it was at it as well but fortunately Bush didn't accomodate them (much to their dismay) due to the enormous quagmire that Iraq quickly became.

Not even ONE US soldier died protecting Israel's interest. Israel stands for what the US stands for - at least, more than any other country in the Middle East and Africa.
US and Israel are allies just like US and UK are allies, and if anything, US lost many more lives - MANY more - protecting UK's interests.

The Presence (an ex-Israeli soldier) has admitted that Israel would have no qualms with running to China or anyone else that promised them a big check with a lot of $$$ on it; it's demonstrated it's steadfast loyalty to the US continually over the years by selling sensitive technology to the Chinese. Israel has forced itself on the US through its large diaspora which has established a very strong pro-Israeli lobby, nothing else. The US is not a state founded on the principals of being a homeland for a single group of people nor does it have colonial desires like Israel does via it's unquenchable thirst for settlements. The US and Israel are far more different than they are alike.

It's much more than joint military development since many years ago. When dozens of leading American companies have signifcant R&D operations in Israel, when people like Warren Buffet buy Israeli companies for Billions, Intel trusts the Haifa R&D center with its entire main product line - Pentium M/Core - and every respected investment fund targets Israel before even targeting Europe - you know the relation between the countries is much more significant than you try to picutre.

Companies are multinational by nature, the Japanese, Americans and everyone else invest heavily in India and China and any other emerging market--Israel isn't unique. That doesn't make them natural allies by any stretch, it's just capitalism doing it's job.

Calling Israel a "wellfare state" when the financial support given by the US is roughly 1% of it's GDP is absurd.

Making a specious argument about % GDP is not even telling half the story. See above for the real expenditures on the welfare state of Israel--and those figures are outdated!

BTW, almost all of the monetary aid given to the US is in the form of credits for purchasing US goods made in the US. That's why the IDF even buys tents from the US instead of producing them locally, and doesn't source weapons and equipment from anywhere other than the US.

Of course the IDF will buy US arms with that aid, who else has the best stuff?

Up until the late 60's, US has not intervened in favor of Israel. Israel has more than protected itself back then, but wasn't subject to American foreign policy.

Yeah before that it was France that was your patron.

I wonder how supporting Iran, either actively or by ignoring the situation in the ME, will enhance your freedom or any other interest you may have.
I don't know what your roots are and background is, but it seems like Israel hits a soft spot.

I don't support Iran nor am I against them. Personally I don't think Israel or Iran should have access to nuclear technology but since Israel already does, I'm not surprised that Iran wants it as well for its own security. Of course the US will try its best to stop them because it doesn't want the mullahs blackmailing the entire region--Arabs also want Iran crippled. Contrary to what you think, I have nothing against Israel but arrogant Israelis like you that posture about nuking Mecca/Medina do worry me and make me realize that the US's blind support of Israel is a liability.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Their religious connection doesn't bind them at all. They're relatively independent of each other with their own ambitions and goals. They don't share in a common philosophy to convert the "kafirs" as much as you'd like to get everyone to believe. Israel would love for people to think there's a larger connection between them so it can have conduct unchecked violence against it's downtrodden Palestinian (and now Lebanese) neighbors but that's a far cry from reality.

That's what they claim, not Israel. They have, again and again, laid out their agenda of converting the Infidels. That you choose to ignore it has nothing to do with reality.
Israel's violence is far from unchecked, and to my opinion, is too little, too late.
Ignoring the ongoing arming of Hizbullah for 6 years all in the name of the failed peace has done no good to the Israeli or Lebanese.

Al Qaeda is pretty much a buzz word these days. Their infrastructure has been pretty much crippled. Furthermore their objective was to get the US out of Saudi Arabia and since 9/11 their organization has pretty much been left in ruins anyway.

Is it a buzzword that's killing US troops on Iraqi soil? A buzzword that planned the London and Madrid bombings? How do you explain those incidents?

Well leave it to an Israeli to shrug off American sacrifices for Israel. Ok I'll bite: Politically the US has antogonized a large portion of the world by exclusively siding with Israel every single time.

It also antogonized a large part of the USSR population when it objected Communism, what's your point? If America supports

By giving it a blank check to do whatever it wants, it led to 9/11 and the deaths of >3000 Americans and they are the ones that were unwilling sacrifices for Israel's gain.

Your accusations of Israel indirectly responsible for 9/11 are laughable at best. So Israel is the root of all problems now?
Your ignorance shows - the US RESTRAINED Israel in past conflicts, like the Six Days war and the '73 war of Yum Kippur. Only due to American intervention Israel stopped.
Israel did not retaliate upon having missiles shot from Iraq in '91, again in the name of restraint imposed by the US and American interests.

The late Peace process was planned by the US and Israel simply followed.

Furthermore, USS liberty soldiers also paid with their lives when Israel bombed them.

Yea, one regrettable incident surely proves Israel seeks to destroy America.

Financially the US gives a lot more than just aid to Israel: http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240


Also: http://www.wrmea.com/archives/Jan_Feb_2001/0101015.html

That's a part of the US foreign policy. Since the lesson learned at WWII, US no longer stands aside in conflicts. The US policy is interventional in its roots.

If you want this to be fair (and of course you don't), why don't you state:

1. The cost of Vietnam war
2. The cost of the Iraq war and Operation Desert Storm
3. The running costs of the Navy stationed near conflicts
4. The cost of American military outposts on NATO soil (Germany, for example)
5. The protection given to Japan due to the latter having no considerable army following WWII
6. The money given to Russia recently
7. Monetary support of Egypt for it agreeing to make peace with Israel

These are all examples of the interventional American policy and how it costs money. Israel is no different. Unlike other cases, Israel only receives direct money and doesn't require any American military assistance.

Iraq was quickly removed from Kuwait but the subsequent sanctions that crippled the country and caused millions of Iraqis to die was a direct benefit for Israel. It destroyed one of it's chief antagonists ability to strike against Israel and/or fund groups like Hezbollah/Hamas (UN food for oil scam not withstanding) that could do it harm. Neoconservatives in this country have always focused on securing Israel first and foremost and our recent invasion of Iraq is proof of that; Israel kept pushing for the US to take out Syria while it was at it as well but fortunately Bush didn't accomodate them (much to their dismay) due to the enormous quagmire that Iraq quickly became.

Israel interests in this case are clear, and it can present them to the US for all that it wants. The US may or may not accept them, and that's fine.
A democratic regime in Iraq, assuming you can really take an Arab state and kick it to the western world - which we know is impossible now - could benefit the people of the entire region. Funny you don't blame Israel for the invasion of Afghanistan too.

The Presence (an ex-Israeli soldier) has admitted that Israel would have no qualms with running to China or anyone else that promised them a big check with a lot of $$$ on it; it's demonstrated it's steadfast loyalty to the US continually over the years by selling sensitive technology to the Chinese.

1. What does it have to do with him being a soldier? I was one too.
2. He never admitted such a thing, I'd be happy if you point it to where it was said.

LOL, aren't the Americans themselves funding the Chinese monster by relocating all production there?
Israel did not sell the technology in question to the Chinese after the US vetoed. As simple as that. The check was big enough - approximately 2bil$.
That's another case of US buying control of Israel in exchange for its assistance.

Israel has forced itself on the US through its large diaspora which has established a very strong pro-Israeli lobby, nothing else. The US is not a state founded on the principals of being a homeland for a single group of people nor does it have colonial desires like Israel does via it's unquenchable thirst for settlements. The US and Israel are far more different than they are alike.

The US is democratic, like Israel. Israel has an unquenchable thirst for settlements only in your own and your Arab friends minds; In fact, EVERY goverment elected since '92 supported some sort of land return, the last 3 goverments even promised to do so one-sidedly.
The bottom line is that Israel is the closest country to the US in ALL aspects from those around the Middle East and Africa, and it's clear why US would rather support it and not Iran.

Companies are multinational by nature, the Japanese, Americans and everyone else invest heavily in India and China and any other emerging market--Israel isn't unique. That doesn't make them natural allies by any stretch, it's just capitalism doing it's job.

Yet they don't invest in Saudi Arabia, do they. Don't be naive, the economical elite and coporations have their word in this too, and I'm sure many of those support the interests of Israel. Some of the people involve are even avid Israel supporter publicly.

Making a specious argument about % GDP is not even telling half the story. See above for the real expenditures on the welfare state of Israel--and those figures are outdated!

If that's a welfare state, what does it make of Germany? Japan? Any other country receiving US aid in the last 60 years?

Of course the IDF will buy US arms with that aid, who else has the best stuff?

USSR had good stuff, in the day, Europe too. Not everything is on par with the US equipment, but Israel buys from the US exclusively.
Even El Al, the national aviation company, was committed to buying Boeing jets despite the Airbus offerings being better, at the time.

Yeah before that it was France that was your patron.

You need some kind of patron as a young state surrounded by Arabs supported by the USSR. Nothing wrong about that.

I don't support Iran nor am I against them. Personally I don't think Israel or Iran should have access to nuclear technology but since Israel already does, I'm not surprised that Iran wants it as well for its own security. Of course the US will try its best to stop them because it doesn't want the mullahs blackmailing the entire region--Arabs also want Iran crippled. Contrary to what you think, I have nothing against Israel but arrogant Israelis like you that posture about nuking Mecca/Medina do worry me and make me realize that the US's blind support of Israel is a liability.

So you're claiming we might find ourselves in a state where Israel is the aggressor and Iran is defending itself? That's an interesting school of thought.

I was just trying - and failed - to knock some sense into The Green Bean's posts about enraged Muslims.
You seem to be offended, are you a Muslim too? I stated my origin, why don't you do the same. Helps put things in perspective, doesn't it.

 

[woland223]

I couldn't help but comment on this.

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200


Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240

- Saving Intel with the Conroe chip -
Priceless

LOL...

I actually don't have much of a problem with how much the U.S. spends on Israel.. We send money all over the world... at least the money we spend on Israel isn't used against us... just look at how much money we sent to North Korea

http://www.fff.org/comment/ed0998e.asp

he U.S. government has been the biggest provider of aid, contributing 220,000 tons of food. The Clinton administration is now considering sending an additional 300,000 tons of food.

in a related link

In the report, he criticizes how the South Korean government is sending food to North Korea without any transparency guarantee and the food never reaches those really in need. In the result, the Kim Jong Il regime is spending the money which ought to be used for food purchase on nuclear development or arms stock while relying on the international organizations for food.

At least what aid we send to Israel hopefully won't result in a nuclear bomb going off in the US... Kim Mentally Il's Regime is taking the food / aid we send to Korea and building up their military to fight us and South Korea

In this context, money aid we send to Israel is well spent! And I want my Conroe!!! (I already have pentium M chip)


-SamurAchzar-

You have a good point

LOL, aren't the Americans themselves funding the Chinese monster by relocating all production there?

I would say yes and no.

One thought on this is that the more we make China dependent on us for their economy the less they want to go to war with us... The more we involve China in capitalistic investments the more they will adopt capitalistic values and move away from communism. (sort of worked for Russia)...

We think that once the population of China sees the benefits to a free, wealthy society, they will want to join us in a prosperous wold economy

I don't totally agree with the above, but since we have always support free trade, it would make us look very hypocritical to deny China the ability to sell the U.S. produced goods.

and hey... I like my Dell 2405 24" monitor (made in china). hehehehe.... but I do wish it was made somewhere else... I'm not sure I like the idea of giving China the ability to make such High Tech things.

Doesn't Israel buy stuff from china also?

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

That's what they claim, not Israel. They have, again and again, laid out their agenda of converting the Infidels. That you choose to ignore it has nothing to do with reality.
Israel's violence is far from unchecked, and to my opinion, is too little, too late.
Ignoring the ongoing arming of Hizbullah for 6 years all in the name of the failed peace has done no good to the Israeli or Lebanese.

Israel has done anything but ignored the violence directed at it; it has taken collective punishment to a new level as a form of retaliation. It's settlers are also quite aggressive and there's plenty of evidence out there about how they purposely attack their Palestinian neighbors.

Is it a buzzword that's killing US troops on Iraqi soil? A buzzword that planned the London and Madrid bombings? How do you explain those incidents?

The London bombings were comitted by a couple of Pakistani nutjob kids not Al Qaeda. Madrid wasn't connected to Al Qaeda either and the death of US troops is the unfortunate result of us being in a country we don't belong in. The bulk of those insurgents are former republican guard soldiers fighting us in a guerilla war. It's unfortunate our soldiers are dying because of some misguided initiative to spread democracy in the mideast and secure Israel.

It also antogonized a large part of the USSR population when it objected Communism, what's your point? If America supports

USSR was also a Communist state that objected to any form of religion and had no love for Jews (Russia still doesn't), the US welcomed Jews after WWII. Of course Israel would support the US and it's allies in the cold war, it was the smart thing to do just like many other countries did.

Your accusations of Israel indirectly responsible for 9/11 are laughable at best. So Israel is the root of all problems now?

It's not an accusation it's a fact. The US was attacked because it's viewed by these terrorists as Israel's sole patron of advanced arms and unrelentless political support.

Your ignorance shows - the US RESTRAINED Israel in past conflicts, like the Six Days war and the '73 war of Yum Kippur. Only due to American intervention Israel stopped.
Israel did not retaliate upon having missiles shot from Iraq in '91, again in the name of restraint imposed by the US and American interests.

Of course it has to listen to the hand that feeds it some of the time although it does bite it quite often when it turns around and sells US tech to China.

If you want this to be fair (and of course you don't), why don't you state:

1. The cost of Vietnam war

That was another misguided war and we paid for it.

2. The cost of the Iraq war and Operation Desert Storm

I already mentioned this in my previous post.

3. The running costs of the Navy stationed near conflicts
4. The cost of American military outposts on NATO soil (Germany, for example)
5. The protection given to Japan due to the latter having no considerable army following WWII

Japan and Germany were both defeated by the allies in WWII. It was in US interests to make sure they don't build up another military machine again and it eventually evolved into a defense pact that promised to protect them--in exchange Japan's constitution forbids it in having an offensive army. Does Israel have a similar constitution? Of course not.

6. The money given to Russia recently

Russia is an ex-superpower that was struggling when it first came to grips with democracy. Of course the USA would do everything it could to help get it on it's feet.

7. Monetary support of Egypt for it agreeing to make peace with Israel

So you agree with what I've been saying all along--US has constantly sacrificed money, lives and political goodwill by going above and beyond for the security of Israel.

These are all examples of the interventional American policy and how it costs money. Israel is no different.

Actually it's far different, not a single one of those nations require the kind of favoritism Israel requires nor are they nearly the same kind of liability Israel is. I don't see Japan, Germany or S. Korea engaging in expansion via settlements nor are they nations created soley for the purpose of being a homeland for a certain religion.

Israel interests in this case are clear, and it can present them to the US for all that it wants. The US may or may not accept them, and that's fine.

The US population has very little choice in the matter. The pro-Israeli lobby has far too much influence in this country. And like you mentioned, it's not just the lobby, there's a lot of pro-Israeli disaspora here that also do just as much to support Israeli interests as the lobby groups do; A lot of these people are loyal to Israel first and foremost despite being Americans.

1. What does it have to do with him being a soldier? I was one too.
2. He never admitted such a thing, I'd be happy if you point it to where it was said.

He clearly stated Israel would have no problems running to China or Russia with open arms as long as they presented a big financial check to them if the US didn't. Thus that proves Israel isn't a natural ally of the US like you try to claim, it's a bought one--a fair weather friend: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...&STARTPAGE=4&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

Israel did not sell the technology in question to the Chinese after the US vetoed. As simple as that. The check was big enough - approximately 2bil$.
That's another case of US buying control of Israel in exchange for its assistance.

I know, unfortunately that's the only way the US can restrain it's so-called friend in the middle east--by constantly giving it money. And as far as selling tech to China, this is far from the only incident. Israel sold technology from a joint fighter plane venture with the US to China as well. Furtheremore:

An Office of Naval Intelligence document, "Worldwide Challenges to Naval Strike Warfare" reported that "US technology has been acquired [by China] through Israel in the form of the Lavi fighter and possibly SAM [surface-to-air] missile technology." Jane's Defense Weekly (2/28/96) noted that "until now, the intelligence community has not openly confirmed the transfer of US technology [via Israel] to China." The report noted that this "represents a dramatic step forward for Chinese military aviation." (Flight International, 3/13/96)

There's several other quotes in there of Israel's show of great loyalty to the US: Text

The US is democratic, like Israel. Israel has an unquenchable thirst for settlements only in your own and your Arab friends minds;

Any government with elected officials is the most vulnerable to outside influence. The fact that there is a huge pro-Israeli lobby here that has deep enough pockets to buy out influential politicians speaks volumes about the ills of our so-called democratic system.

In fact, EVERY goverment elected since '92 supported some sort of land return, the last 3 goverments even promised to do so one-sidedly.
The bottom line is that Israel is the closest country to the US in ALL aspects from those around the Middle East and Africa, and it's clear why US would rather support it and not Iran.

More specious reasoning from you without any real substance. The US and Israel are quite polar opposites in almost every sense. Israel is an unstable state with a history of tension with it's neigbhors and a bad record of human rights violations. It engages in collective punishment and thinks it has a manifest destiny to expand it's settlements.

Yet they don't invest in Saudi Arabia, do they. Don't be naive, the economical elite and coporations have their word in this too, and I'm sure many of those support the interests of Israel. Some of the people involve are even avid Israel supporter publicly.

I bet if you checked who those staunch pro-Israeli "elite" are they're more than likely Jewish. Many of these companies would invest heavily in Saudi Arabia if it had the qualified workforce to justify it. India and China have a very large group of educated people and thus make for an attractive place to invest. Malaysia (a Muslim country) is also an attractive place for investment and thus has undergone an economic boom, the same goes for UAE.

If that's a welfare state, what does it make of Germany? Japan? Any other country receiving US aid in the last 60 years?

Germany and Japan were two conquered nations. Israel is a nation carved out of the middle east after WWII and has required constant nurturing.

USSR had good stuff, in the day, Europe too.

And before the US became Israel's primary patron, it did purchase from France quite heavily. USSR wasn't an attractive ally because it's Communist doctrine was incongruous with Israel's existence as a Jewish state.

Not everything is on par with the US equipment, but Israel buys from the US exclusively.
Even El Al, the national aviation company, was committed to buying Boeing jets despite the Airbus offerings being better, at the time.

It has to show SOME political good will--no matter how miniscule--for the implacable support it gets from the US.

So you're claiming we might find ourselves in a state where Israel is the aggressor and Iran is defending itself? That's an interesting school of thought.

I said no such thing nor did I even imply it. I simply stated that if Israel feels threatened enough to build nukes for its own security then by the same token Iran must have similar desires to secure itself.

I was just trying - and failed - to knock some sense into The Green Bean's posts about enraged Muslims.

Actually you were showing your arrogance like you tend to do quite a bit. You also putatively stated to GamerX that Israel would be retaking the Sinai.

You seem to be offended, are you a Muslim too? I stated my origin, why don't you do the same. Helps put things in perspective, doesn't it.

Sure why not, I'm an agnostic American of mixed pakistani and afghan ethnicity with absolutely no ties to any religion or another country. Thus I can't be offended (more like amused) by your arrogant notions of "nuking" all the Muslims back to their "nomadic" roots. But considering Jews claim to be semitic, you share those nomadic roots with your Arab brethren more than anyone else on this planet does. I was hoping you'd see the irony of your statement.

Despite having told you this before, I guess I need to reiterate it again since you seem so paranoid: I have absolutely no enmity towards Israel or Israelis, I'm sure there are a lot of you that wish to live in peace with your neighbors. Unfortunately judging by the way your country has been conducting its military adventures, it doesn't seem like your policy makers are interested in that. As an individual it seems you aren't either otherwise you wouldn't make the brazen (and foolish) statements that you often do.

P.S. posts like this by you just made me realize I'm talking to a racist Israeli and what a waste of time it is to reply to you:

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Seems to me like Arabs just aren't ready to live in any regime other than a firm dictatorship. But I knew it already.

 

[fitzov]

is this story published anywhere but the Jewish press?

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

That's what they claim, not Israel. They have, again and again, laid out their agenda of converting the Infidels. That you choose to ignore it has nothing to do with reality.
Israel's violence is far from unchecked, and to my opinion, is too little, too late.
Ignoring the ongoing arming of Hizbullah for 6 years all in the name of the failed peace has done no good to the Israeli or Lebanese.

Israel has done anything but ignored the violence directed at it; it has taken collective punishment to a new level as a form of retaliation. It's settlers are also quite aggressive and there's plenty of evidence out there about how they purposely attack their Palestinian neighbors.

Is it a buzzword that's killing US troops on Iraqi soil? A buzzword that planned the London and Madrid bombings? How do you explain those incidents?

The London bombings were comitted by a couple of Pakistani nutjob kids not Al Qaeda. Madrid wasn't connected to Al Qaeda either and the death of US troops is the unfortunate result of us being in a country we don't belong in. The bulk of those insurgents are former republican guard soldiers fighting us in a guerilla war. It's unfortunate our soldiers are dying because of some misguided initiative to spread democracy in the mideast and secure Israel.

It also antogonized a large part of the USSR population when it objected Communism, what's your point? If America supports

USSR was also a Communist state that objected to any form of religion and had no love for Jews (Russia still doesn't), the US welcomed Jews after WWII. Of course Israel would support the US and it's allies in the cold war, it was the smart thing to do just like many other countries did.

Your accusations of Israel indirectly responsible for 9/11 are laughable at best. So Israel is the root of all problems now?

It's not an accusation it's a fact. The US was attacked because it's viewed by these terrorists as Israel's sole patron of advanced arms and unrelentless political support.

Your ignorance shows - the US RESTRAINED Israel in past conflicts, like the Six Days war and the '73 war of Yum Kippur. Only due to American intervention Israel stopped.
Israel did not retaliate upon having missiles shot from Iraq in '91, again in the name of restraint imposed by the US and American interests.

Of course it has to listen to the hand that feeds it some of the time although it does bite it quite often when it turns around and sells US tech to China.

If you want this to be fair (and of course you don't), why don't you state:

1. The cost of Vietnam war

That was another misguided war and we paid for it.

2. The cost of the Iraq war and Operation Desert Storm

I already mentioned this in my previous post.

3. The running costs of the Navy stationed near conflicts
4. The cost of American military outposts on NATO soil (Germany, for example)
5. The protection given to Japan due to the latter having no considerable army following WWII

Japan and Germany were both defeated by the allies in WWII. It was in US interests to make sure they don't build up another military machine again and it eventually evolved into a defense pact that promised to protect them--in exchange Japan's constitution forbids it in having an offensive army. Does Israel have a similar constitution? Of course not.

6. The money given to Russia recently

Russia is an ex-superpower that was struggling when it first came to grips with democracy. Of course the USA would do everything it could to help get it on it's feet.

7. Monetary support of Egypt for it agreeing to make peace with Israel

So you agree with what I've been saying all along--US has constantly sacrificed money, lives and political goodwill by going above and beyond for the security of Israel.

These are all examples of the interventional American policy and how it costs money. Israel is no different.

Actually it's far different, not a single one of those nations require the kind of favoritism Israel requires nor are they nearly the same kind of liability Israel is. I don't see Japan, Germany or S. Korea engaging in expansion via settlements nor are they nations created soley for the purpose of being a homeland for a certain religion.

Israel interests in this case are clear, and it can present them to the US for all that it wants. The US may or may not accept them, and that's fine.

The US population has very little choice in the matter. The pro-Israeli lobby has far too much influence in this country. And like you mentioned, it's not just the lobby, there's a lot of pro-Israeli disaspora here that also do just as much to support Israeli interests as the lobby groups do; A lot of these people are loyal to Israel first and foremost despite being Americans.

1. What does it have to do with him being a soldier? I was one too.
2. He never admitted such a thing, I'd be happy if you point it to where it was said.

He clearly stated Israel would have no problems running to China or Russia with open arms as long as they presented a big financial check to them if the US didn't. Thus that proves Israel isn't a natural ally of the US like you try to claim, it's a bought one--a fair weather friend: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...&STARTPAGE=4&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

Israel did not sell the technology in question to the Chinese after the US vetoed. As simple as that. The check was big enough - approximately 2bil$.
That's another case of US buying control of Israel in exchange for its assistance.

I know, unfortunately that's the only way the US can restrain it's so-called friend in the middle east--by constantly giving it money. And as far as selling tech to China, this is far from the only incident. Israel sold technology from a joint fighter plane venture with the US to China as well. Furtheremore:

An Office of Naval Intelligence document, "Worldwide Challenges to Naval Strike Warfare" reported that "US technology has been acquired [by China] through Israel in the form of the Lavi fighter and possibly SAM [surface-to-air] missile technology." Jane's Defense Weekly (2/28/96) noted that "until now, the intelligence community has not openly confirmed the transfer of US technology [via Israel] to China." The report noted that this "represents a dramatic step forward for Chinese military aviation." (Flight International, 3/13/96)

There's several other quotes in there of Israel's show of great loyalty to the US: Text

The US is democratic, like Israel. Israel has an unquenchable thirst for settlements only in your own and your Arab friends minds;

Any government with elected officials is the most vulnerable to outside influence. The fact that there is a huge pro-Israeli lobby here that has deep enough pockets to buy out influential politicians speaks volumes about the ills of our so-called democratic system.

In fact, EVERY goverment elected since '92 supported some sort of land return, the last 3 goverments even promised to do so one-sidedly.
The bottom line is that Israel is the closest country to the US in ALL aspects from those around the Middle East and Africa, and it's clear why US would rather support it and not Iran.

More specious reasoning from you without any real substance. The US and Israel are quite polar opposites in almost every sense. Israel is an unstable state with a history of tension with it's neigbhors and a bad record of human rights violations. It engages in collective punishment and thinks it has a manifest destiny to expand it's settlements.

Yet they don't invest in Saudi Arabia, do they. Don't be naive, the economical elite and coporations have their word in this too, and I'm sure many of those support the interests of Israel. Some of the people involve are even avid Israel supporter publicly.

I bet if you checked who those staunch pro-Israeli "elite" are they're more than likely Jewish. Many of these companies would invest heavily in Saudi Arabia if it had the qualified workforce to justify it. India and China have a very large group of educated people and thus make for an attractive place to invest. Malaysia (a Muslim country) is also an attractive place for investment and thus has undergone an economic boom, the same goes for UAE.

If that's a welfare state, what does it make of Germany? Japan? Any other country receiving US aid in the last 60 years?

Germany and Japan were two conquered nations. Israel is a nation carved out of the middle east after WWII and has required constant nurturing.

USSR had good stuff, in the day, Europe too.

And before the US became Israel's primary patron, it did purchase from France quite heavily. USSR wasn't an attractive ally because it's Communist doctrine was incongruous with Israel's existence as a Jewish state.

Not everything is on par with the US equipment, but Israel buys from the US exclusively.
Even El Al, the national aviation company, was committed to buying Boeing jets despite the Airbus offerings being better, at the time.

It has to show SOME political good will--no matter how miniscule--for the implacable support it gets from the US.

So you're claiming we might find ourselves in a state where Israel is the aggressor and Iran is defending itself? That's an interesting school of thought.

I said no such thing nor did I even imply it. I simply stated that if Israel feels threatened enough to build nukes for its own security then by the same token Iran must have similar desires to secure itself.

I was just trying - and failed - to knock some sense into The Green Bean's posts about enraged Muslims.

Actually you were showing your arrogance like you tend to do quite a bit. You also putatively stated to GamerX that Israel would be retaking the Sinai.

You seem to be offended, are you a Muslim too? I stated my origin, why don't you do the same. Helps put things in perspective, doesn't it.

Sure why not, I'm an agnostic American of mixed pakistani and afghan ethnicity with absolutely no ties to any religion or another country. Thus I can't be offended (more like amused) by your arrogant notions of "nuking" all the Muslims back to their "nomadic" roots. But considering Jews claim to be semitic, you share those nomadic roots with your Arab brethren more than anyone else on this planet does. I was hoping you'd see the irony of your statement.

Despite having told you this before, I guess I need to reiterate it again since you seem so paranoid: I have absolutely no enmity towards Israel or Israelis, I'm sure there are a lot of you that wish to live in peace with your neighbors. Unfortunately judging by the way your country has been conducting its military adventures, it doesn't seem like your policy makers are interested in that. As an individual it seems you aren't either otherwise you wouldn't make the brazen (and foolish) statements that you often do.

P.S. posts like this by you just made me realize I'm talking to a racist Israeli and what a waste of time it is to reply to you:

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Seems to me like Arabs just aren't ready to live in any regime other than a firm dictatorship. But I knew it already.

Joker-- Your point?

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
He clearly stated Israel would have no problems running to China or Russia with open arms as long as they presented a big financial check to them if the US didn't. Thus that proves Israel isn't a natural ally of the US like you try to claim, it's a bought one--a fair weather friend: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...&STARTPAGE=4&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

Joker, you must've missed my last post in that thread, or intentionally ignored it as you tend to do. Friendships and loyalties between countries do not exist. Every country looks out for it's own best interests. That's the bottom line. The US does business with the Saudis because it's in the best interest of the US to do so. Etc, etc, etc.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Dari
Why are people under the illusion that India and Israel favor each other? Nothing could be further from the truth. India has always supported the Arab cause. That's why when Indians kill hundreds of muslims, you don't hear a peep from the Arab world.

The only friend Israel really has in Asia is China. Let's not forget that China supports Pakistan, which is India's arch foe.

China supports whoever buys the most weapons from them or is willing to sell them the most US military weapons to them.

On the contrary the US has only become freinds with India to counter the China threat.

India still mostly shops and Russia/China-mart for their millitary needs.

 

[daniel49]

Egyptians call to cancel peace with Israel

I just called to say I love you
I just called to say how much I care, I do
I just called to say I love you
And I mean it from the bottom of my heart
Of my heart,
...... of my heart
What if

 

[Lemon law]

What the Israelies are clueless about is that while they were enaged in their mutual self-delusions-----the world changed---and a tectonic plate has shifted forever altering the slope of the playing field.

Two years ago a pair of Israelie tanks could drive unmolested from Southern Israel all the way up to Northern Lebanon with none rational daring to stop them. Now a strong contigent of troops are hard pressed to advance 18 miles into Lebanon in three weeks. There is little doubt that the Israelie army will win that buffer zone---but its gonna cost and it won't hardly dent Hezbollah---who will try elsewhere.

Gone is the rubish arab Israel defeated in 1948 and 1967----now they are US trained in Afganistan with the combination of hit and run tactics plus arms caching---some tricks the Reagan's CIA taught them when they were freedom fighters against the Russians.-------largely gone also are the arabs who throw rocks against tanks---suicide bombing is still in vogue, but these people are now an enemy like Israel never faced before---they are dedicated, realistic, and modernistic---they are patient planners---and they have plans to use Israel's very streagths against it. They are now a organized mobile gorrilla movement---independent of any government---and able to find shelter anywhere in the Mid-East. What makes them formable is their choice of modern weapons---plus the hatreds Israel has earned now assure them a almost infinite supply of money to purchase weapons.

But when the world changes---old strategies no longer work---with the Sanai and the Gaza strip to the South---Israel was secure their--and could dominate the Palistinians easily to the East and South---with only Jordan,Syria, and Lebanon remaining as a direct border threat--with Jordan vowing neutrality--the only threats were Lebanon and to a Lesser extent Syria.
Before this recent escalation Israel was immune to attack from land or air---what Arab State would dare attack with plane or tank?---all else could be ignored.

Leaving Israel free to thumb its nose at angry arab states regarding the right to return---and in turn Israel didn't care if it was hated---as long as Israel was feared. With collective punishment the favored Israelie terror tactic.---while an apethic world looked on as Israel did enage in periodic collective punishment.---and secure that this great status quo would never end.

And the rest is recent history---over a period of months Hezzbollah quietly smuggled in huge numbers of missles into southern Lebanon--cacheing them as they had learned---and then firing them into Northern Israel---and suddenly the hatreds that Israel had earned became considerations not to be ignored---and Israel then lashed out at Lebanon proper---and managed to increase Hezbollah support from 25% to 75% in Lebanon proper---and much higher than that in the larger Arab world.---what is now unknown is where else are missles already cached---and where will they be fired from in the future?

Rather than call for International help and support to occupy Southern Lebanon---Israel decided to tell the world to butt out---and got embarrassed when Hezbollah did far better than expected. But the world is now disgusted with Israel over its over-reaction in collectively punishing Lebanon----earth to Israel---collective punishment will now be removed from your arsenal as a result---you just don't know it yet----meanwhile the USA---itself mired in Iraq---now sees Israelie over-reaction as hurting its prospects---and Israel really blew it when it told Condi---butt out bitch.

In short, the terrorists have outsmarted Israel---now distant States like Iran, Saudie Arabia, and others will gladly arm and fund Hezbollah---what is Israel now going to do???
Does it dare attack Iran openly and massively?----------well I just got one comment and recommendation for Israel---since you are now vulnerable as a State--you better figure out ways to rachet the hatreds down not up---------the world has changed and Israel is still in denial about it.---but Israel can no longer afford to think its business as usual. Collective punishment no longer works.---and building hatreds up guarantees the end of Israel.---above all---Israel must now address the right to return.

 

[imported_toxigun]

Israel could easily smash whole villages and push much more forces into Lebanon. Don't forget that it didn't recruit even a small portion of its reserve forces (during war, the IDF relies mostly on the reserves. It is to small to handle war without reserves).

Recruiting 1/3 of the reserves, pushing them ALL into Lebanon, eliminating EVERYBODY who carries/stores a weapon or even has a communication relay in his house that serves the Hezbolla network should solve the problem. The world just won't let Israel do that.

 

[Harabec]

Lemon, I'm sorry to say but you need an Israeli viewpoint to know exactly what's going on.
Basically, our political leaders did a half-assed job and sent only about 10% of the army while underestimating Hizballah (I wonder what they thought Hizballah did in the past 6 years, bought sticks and stones?). That, plus the need to avoid civilian casualties, is why we're still fighting.

We could have told Halutz "do what you want and come talk to us in 10 days", after which all of this would be over and we can continue with our lives.
We didn't, so we're still fighting with rockets still flying.

 

[Lemon law]

To Harabec,

I don't need an Israelie view to tell what is going on---your post proved what I was saying the Israelie view was.

And as long as Israelie views remain static in a greatly changed world---Israel is greatly deluding themselves into a fatal isolation.

 

[Harabec]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
To Harabec,

I don't need an Israelie view to tell what is going on---your post proved what I was saying the Israelie view was.

And as long as Israelie views remain static in a greatly changed world---Israel is greatly deluding themselves into a fatal isolation.

What in your opinion should be Israel's view?
What do you mean by "a greatly changed world"?