(DSOG via MaxPC) Nvidia Finally Officially Speaks About AMD’s Mantle

[Noctifer616]

Wait...we know this how? Has either a Mantle SDK or ... well anything actually specific about DX12 been released? Sorry, I've been away for a while. And paging through this thread, I seem to remember why.

There was an AMD blog stating that porting Mantle to DX 12 is easy. That's it.

http://community.amd.com/community/...05/28/mantle-the-start-of-low-overhead-future

 

[SirPauly]

Nvidia should be pushing industry standards?

It's what I believe nVidia is thinking -- clearly offered that for a gaming API. GameWork abilities are middleware for visual features!

Personally don't have a problem with proprietary Mantle or GameWorks -- both trying to compete and innovate!

 

[AnandThenMan]

It's what I believe nVidia is thinking -- clearly offered that for a gaming API. GameWork abilities are middleware for visual features!

Personally don't have a problem with proprietary Mantle or GameWorks -- both trying to compete and innovate!

Please don't selectively quote me to change the context. This is what I actually wrote:

Also I've lost count how many times you've said that "division and fragmentation may bring innovation" now you're telling us all about how Nvidia should be pushing industry standards?

 

[3DVagabond]

Is there really a distinction between a legal/technical prohibition and a business prohibition?

Nvidia can't take the risks involved in trying to support Mantle as long as AMD maintains full control. Is that really somehow more "open" than AMD saying outright that they can't use it?

Same result of Nvidia not supporting Mantle. Same entity, AMD, that's making the decisions that leads to the result.

No. It's nVidia's decision. Plain and simple. End of story.

Wait...we know this how? Has either a Mantle SDK or ... well anything actually specific about DX12 been released? Sorry, I've been away for a while. And paging through this thread, I seem to remember why.

Because the devs that have seen Mantle say so.

 

[SirPauly]

Please don't selectively quote me to change the context. This is what I actually wrote:

Indeed you did write that and clearly was on context! The irony and puzzling aspect is you were not because I never said nVidia should but offered I believe nVidia likes or cares or nVidia's thinking about a proprietary gaming API!

Please, read closer!

 

[Mand]

No. It's nVidia's decision. Plain and simple. End of story.

It's Nvidia's decision for AMD to have sole control over Mantle?

 

[Keysplayr]

Yeah. Some of these posts are jaw droppers.

 

[Erenhardt]

Yeah. Some of these posts are jaw droppers.

And some bring absolutely nothing to the discussion...

 

[Keysplayr]

And some bring absolutely nothing to the discussion...

Yes, exactly my point. You and I are right there.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Indeed you did write that and clearly was on context! The irony and puzzling aspect is you were not because I never said nVidia should but offered I believe nVidia likes or cares or nVidia's thinking about a proprietary gaming API!

Please, read closer!

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

 

[3DVagabond]

It's Nvidia's decision for AMD to have sole control over Mantle?

No. nVidia doesn't get to make AMD's corporate decisions no more than AMD does for them. They do get to choose whether or not they will use it. They have decided no and not because AMD controls it, according to them. They don't think it offers performance worth pursuing.

 

[stahlhart]

Some of you need to figure out the correct way to ask for a post clarification from another member, which is politely and respectfully, and not to use it as an excuse to attack them personally.

Some of you need to learn how to mind your own business, and stay out of conversations that you aren't a part of -- and also to not use them as excuses to attack other members personally.

No consequences this time, but the offending parties here have been noted, and there will be next time.

Thread reopened.

-- stahlhart

 

[BFG10K]

No. It's nVidia's decision. Plain and simple. End of story.

You mean like how it's AMD's decision not to support hardware PhysX?

 

[AnandThenMan]

You mean like how it's AMD's decision not to support hardware PhysX?

No, because Nvidia pretended they'd be fine with AMD GPUs running PhysX code but it was lip service.

 

[3DVagabond]

It's Nvidia's decision for AMD to have sole control over Mantle?

You mean like how it's AMD's decision not to support hardware PhysX?

Did nVidia offer AMD hardware PhysX licence free? Just put it out there for AMD or anybody else to use with no strings attached? Because that's what AMD has said they are going to do with Mantle.

 

[SirPauly]

That's not necessarily true:

Why Won’t ATI Support CUDA and PhysX?

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/82264-why-wont-ati-support-cuda-and-physx

Information and comments from nVidia and AMD!

 

[BFG10K]

Did nVidia offer AMD hardware PhysX licence free? Just put it out there for AMD or anybody else to use with no strings attached?

Relevance? AMD hasn't done that with Mantle.

Because that's what AMD has said they are going to do with Mantle.

AMD also told us they were going to implement their own hardware accelerated physics, and that they were going to support their version of 3D vision. Both have been abandoned.

They also told us there was no DirectX 12, so all of those promises were epic fails.

So far the only person actually keeping promises is Microsoft given DirectX is out there for free with no strings attached, and will continue to be with version 12.

 

[blastingcap]

So far the only person actually keeping promises is Microsoft given DirectX is out there for free with no strings attached, and will continue to be with version 12.

Um, DX12 may be "free," but Windows is not free, DX12 will probably end up requiring Windows 9, and I really don't want to upgrade unless absolutely necessary. If something like SteamOS were more viable, I would have switched already. As it is, I'm stuck on DX11.

Maybe that's not such a bad thing. If it's too costly/difficult to port console games to DX12 on PC, I expect that DX11 will be the de facto standard much like DX9 was the standard for so long. Maybe I lose some performance along the way, but I tend to play older games anyway so by the time I run out of DX11 games to play, DX13 will probably be out anyway.

 

[3DVagabond]

Relevance? AMD hasn't done that with Mantle.

AMD also told us they were going to implement their own hardware accelerated physics, and that they were going to support their version of 3D vision. Both have been abandoned.

They also told us there was no DirectX 12, so all of those promises were epic fails.

So far the only person actually keeping promises is Microsoft given DirectX is out there for free with no strings attached, and will continue to be with version 12.

Well, first off PhysX was irrelevant to the thread. Now you've gone further along just kicking dirt at AMD. I was willing to give it the benefit of the doubt before, but after this post it's easy to see what you are doing. Coming from you it surprises me, to be honest.

 

[BFG10K]

Um, DX12 may be "free," but Windows is not free, DX12 will probably end up requiring Windows 9, and I really don't want to upgrade unless absolutely necessary. If something like SteamOS were more viable, I would have switched already. As it is, I'm stuck on DX11.

Radeons aren't free either. You have to buy one to use Mantle.

And while Metro is a total abomination, there are technical reasons why DX12 may be limited to Windows 9. As has been stated, DirectX is really tightly coupled to the WDDM that ships with the OS.

With that said, based on the interviews I've seen, they're really trying hard to get it on 7 given the enormous customer base it has.

Well, first off PhysX was irrelevant to the thread. Now you've gone further along just kicking dirt at AMD. I was willing to give it the benefit of the doubt before, but after this post it's easy to see what you are doing. Coming from you it surprises me, to be honest.

I don't recall any objection from you when I objected against PhysX the same way. Why the double-standard?

I've made it clear time and time again I'm opposed to anything that locks out a certain group of customers and goes down the path of requiring a certain vendor based on what game you play.

Mantle is no more "open" than G-Sync, hardware PhysX, or Gameworks is. It's controlled and designed by a corporation that has an inherent conflict of interest to make it truly open. To think otherwise is a fantasy.

The problem is that some individuals that were knocking PhysX are now running around extolling the vitues of Mantle when it has exactly the same vendor lock-in. You're either opposed to vendor lock-in or you're not: you can't have it both ways.

 

[3DVagabond]

Radeons aren't free either. You have to buy one to use Mantle.

And while Metro is a total abomination, there are technical reasons why DX12 may be limited to Windows 9. As has been stated, DirectX is really tightly coupled to the WDDM that ships with the OS.

With that said, based on the interviews I've seen, they're really trying hard to get it on 7 given the enormous customer base it has.


I don't recall any objection from you when I objected against PhysX the same way. Why the double-standard?

I've made it clear time and time again I'm opposed to anything that locks out a certain group of customers and goes down the path of requiring a certain vendor based on what game you play.

Mantle is no more "open" than G-Sync, hardware PhysX, or Gameworks is. It's controlled and designed by a corporation that has an inherent conflict of interest to make it truly open. To think otherwise is a fantasy.

The problem is that some individuals that were knocking PhysX are now running around extolling the vitues of Mantle when it has exactly the same vendor lock-in. You're either opposed to vendor lock-in or you're not: you can't have it both ways.

I tell you what. We'll revisit this after mantle is out of beta and see if AMD handles Mantle the same as nVidia does PhysX. Right now, you are saying all of this but it's not out of closed beta yet.

 

[BFG10K]

I tell you what. We'll revisit this after mantle is out of beta and see if AMD handles Mantle the same as nVidia does PhysX. Right now, you are saying all of this but it's not out of closed beta yet.

Sure thing. But I can tell you one thing right now: nVidia and Microsoft will never support it, no matter what happens.

It's the same reason why AMD would never implement a hardware PhysX back-end regardless of how open nVidia made it.

So that fractures the market i.e. do I buy a Radeon for Mantle games, or do I buy an nVidia card for Gameworks titles?

 

[MathMan]

So that fractures the market i.e. do I buy a Radeon for Mantle games, or do I buy an nVidia card for Gameworks titles?

If your thinking longer term than 1 year (when DX12 will be released), then Mantle should not be a major consideration in your purchase decision.

Not saying it should be Nvidia, there may be other reasons to chose AMD, but the performance benefits of Mantle are capped and will inevitable by implemented by DX12.

 

[3DVagabond]

Sure thing. But I can tell you one thing right now: nVidia and Microsoft will never support it, no matter what happens.

It's the same reason why AMD would never implement a hardware PhysX back-end regardless of how open nVidia made it.

So that fractures the market i.e. do I buy a Radeon for Mantle games, or do I buy an nVidia card for Gameworks titles?

Specifically you accusing AMD of vendor locking it. Not whether other IHV's decide on their own not to use it. We'll see if they have a flag in there that says if there's an nVidia GPU as the main render then Mantle isn't allowed to run. That would then be the same as PhysX.

 

[MathMan]

Specifically you accusing AMD of vendor locking it. Not whether other IHV's decide on their own not to use it. We'll see if they have a flag in there that says if there's an nVidia GPU as the main render then Mantle isn't allowed to run. That would then be the same as PhysX.

Are you sure this was meant for me? I haven't accused anyone of anything, let alone vendor lock-in.

All I'm saying is that Mantle is about thinning the intermediate layer between GPU and game to increase efficiency. DX12 will do the same.

Once both APIs are sufficiently thin, there's little reason to choose one over the other, so why not choose something that's not vendor controlled. (Just like what happened with Cg.)

If your next GPU purchase is for longer than a year, then Mantle should not be a major factor in your decision.