(DSOG via MaxPC) Nvidia Finally Officially Speaks About AMD’s Mantle

[SirPauly]

Why would they support CUDA when OpenCL works on all AMD hardware (CUDA is GPU only)? And OpenCL also supports HSA (which AMD is betting on).

http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2011/06/20/cuda-now-available-for-multiple-x86-processors/

 

[blackened23]

Sorry, but so far no one said (Intel, Nvidia, AMD) that Mantle can't work on hardware that isn't GCN.

Intel showed interest in Mantle for whatever reason, Nvidia said they don't want to support Mantle, they go with DX 12, but neither said it can't work on their current hardware.

Now, you argument might have had some merit to it at launch, but since then MS announced DX 12 which is supposed to offer the same benefits as Mantle but manages to do so on a wider range of hardware. If DX12 can work on many graphics architectures, why wouldn't Mantle?

http://www.amd.com/en-us/innovations/software-technologies/mantle#overview

Mantle is the harmony of three essential ingredients:
A driver within the AMD Catalyst™ software suite that lets applications speak directly to the Graphics Core Next architecture;
A GPU or APU enabled with the Graphics Core Next architecture;
An application or game written to take advantage of Mantle.
Mantle reduces the CPU’s workload by giving developers a way to talk to the GPU directly with much less translation. With less work for the CPU to do, programmers can squeeze much more performance from a system, delivering the greatest benefits in gaming systems where the CPU can be the bottleneck.

Seems to me that AMD said many times that it is restricted to AMD GCN. They even said this at their GPU14 event. Unless you know more than AMD does.

 

[Saylick]

http://www.amd.com/en-us/innovations/software-technologies/mantle#overview



Seems to me that AMD said many times that it is restricted to AMD GCN. They even said this at their GPU14 event. Unless you know more than AMD does.

Just because nVidia cards aren't Mantle supported doesn't mean they can't run Mantle.

Hell, I bet a lot of people think that PhysX only runs on nVidia cards, but that's not true per se.

I'm not saying that Mantle can run on nVidia cards; I'm saying that just because AMD states that Mantle requires a GCN card doesn't automatically imply that an nVidia card is incapable of running Mantle.

 

[blackened23]

Oh, please. So the question becomes when is an nvidia card capable of being GCN. Come on, give me a freakin break. Just call it what it is and don't beat around the bush. It's AMD's proprietary thing and that's fine.

Let's not play games and dance around saying stuff like

AMD SAID IT ONLY SUPPORTS GCN!

But they DIDN'T say it doesn't support nvidia?

So they didn't say it doesn't support NV but requires GCN that doesn't automatically eliminate nvidia? Is this the argument I see now? Are you even for real? I mean we know how much AMD non GCN hardware supports Mantle. Also physx HAS NEVER been nvidia only. It is a full physics middleware that is capable on running on ARM SOCS, xbox 360, PS3, PS4, xbox1, and a wide range of hardware. Only a small subset of physx GPU particle effects are NV only because it requires CUDA or CPU emulation of those CUDA features. There are tons of console games using physx right now, Dragon Age: Origins being one that comes to mind.

 

[Saylick]

Oh, please. So the question becomes when is an nvidia card capable of being GCN. Come on, give me a freakin break. Just call it what it is and don't beat around the bush. It's AMD's proprietary thing and that's fine.

Let's not play games and dance around saying stuff like

AMD SAID IT ONLY SUPPORTS GCN!

But they DIDN'T say it doesn't support nvidia?

So they didn't say it doesn't support NV but requires GCN that doesn't automatically eliminate nvidia? Is this the argument I see now? Are you even for real? I mean we know how much AMD non GCN hardware supports Mantle. Also physx HAS NEVER been nvidia only. It is a full physics middleware that is capable on running on ARM SOCS, xbox 360, PS3, PS4, xbox1, and a wide range of hardware. Only a small subset of physx GPU particle effects are NV only because it requires CUDA or CPU emulation of those CUDA features. There are tons of console games using physx right now, Dragon Age: Origins being one that comes to mind.

If I'm not mistaken, Mantle requires a feature set just like how DX requires a feature set. I agree that Mantle is proprietary; if nVidia GPUs have the same minimum feature set that is required to be Mantle compatible, then in theory nVidia GPUs should be able to run Mantle.

Again, I bring up the case of PhysX. It's proprietary, but it's locked out from AMD GPUs. Nonetheless, it's been shown that an AMD GPU is capable of running PhysX. If I were to go to nVidia's website and looked up PhysX, I wouldn't be surprised to read that it requires an nVidia GPU.

 

[blackened23]

Gotcha. So if nvidia asks AMD to create a GPU for them, or if NV licences GCN from AMD, they can run Mantle. Sounds like an ideal situation. Now let's get back to the real world:

It's proprietary. It's AMD's baby for optimizing AMD GPUs. That's fine and nobody cares. In general, people need to stop making Mantle out to be something that it isn't. It's AMD's value add. Completely fine. Being that it isn't consortium based and allows no input from others, and will always exist to for AMD GPUs , it isn't going to be adopted by other IHV's, period. Even Huddy who has a questionable tendency to not tell the whole truth admitted that it is always going to be controlled by AMD for optimizing for AMD. What does that mean? That is isn't really open. Open standards are consortium based - if other parties have no input into maximizing performance for their competing non GCN architectures, it is COMPLETELY pointless for anyone but AMD to adopt. And that's fine. Again, let's not make Mantle to be something it isn't.

 

[rgallant]

just asking
any one think nv black code in GAMEWORKS might have any mantle like code for small maxwell in coming soon ???

 

[blackened23]

Do you believe that small features such as HBAO+ or TXAA really needs a to the metal API? They're just small features, not the entire game. Neither AMD or NV programs games, despite some of the misrepresentations flying around these forums. For an entire game, to the metal can be beneficial. For small features? Why? Don't you think that would be a monumental waste of time? HBAO incurs a small performance penalty as is in watch dogs and is the only gameworks feature. NV didn't program the game.

Maybe if AMD or NV became game developers, yeah, that could make sense. In the meantime for small individual features, i'd say, no.

 

[3DVagabond]

Gotcha. So if nvidia asks AMD to create a GPU for them, or if NV licences GCN from AMD, they can run Mantle. Sounds like an ideal situation. Now let's get back to the real world:

If what you are saying was true then all nVidia would have to say when asked about supporting it is, "Mantle won't run on our arch." But that's not what they said. Only a few forum posters have said that.

 

[dacostafilipe]

AMD SAID IT ONLY SUPPORTS GCN!

Mantle is composed of two parts: The API and the thin driver.

As of now, and I don't see that changing anytime soon, AMD's Mantle driver only support GCN cards. Is it because the older hardware simply could not support Mantle or does AMD just not want to invest time in old hardware, that's not clear at the moment.

The API itself is really simple and if you look at the methodes inside the Mantle DLL and you'll see that they are only basic functions, nothing special.

The API does not require GCN because the API does not talk with the hardware directly, it uses the thin driver.

PS: Why do you take something on AMD's page as true, but you don't believe then Huddy says (click) that Mantle can run on Intel/nVidia?

 

[Noctifer616]

Mantle is composed of two parts: The API and the thin driver.

As of now, and I don't see that changing anytime soon, AMD's Mantle driver only support GCN cards. Is it because the older hardware simply could not support Mantle or does AMD just not want to invest time in old hardware, that's not clear at the moment.

The API itself is really simple and if you look at the methodes inside the Mantle DLL and you'll see that they are only basic functions, nothing special.

The API does not require GCN because the API does not talk with the hardware directly, it uses the thin driver.

PS: Why do you take something on AMD's page as true, but you don't believe then Huddy says (click) that Mantle can run on Intel/nVidia?

Mantle can't run on older cards because the older architectures don't have a high enough level of programability. DX 12is the same. Nvidia has switched to a more compute focused architecture with Fermi, AMD with GCN.

Mantle could work on the same hardware that DX 12 does, all the other vendors would need is the Mantle SDK and write a driver.

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18600973&page=4

Thracks (AMD guy) say that exact things.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Mantle can't run on older cards because the older architectures don't have a high enough level of programability. DX 12is the same. Nvidia has switched to a more compute focused architecture with Fermi, AMD with GCN.

Mantle could work on the same hardware that DX 12 does, all the other vendors would need is the Mantle SDK and write a driver.

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18600973&page=4

Thracks (AMD guy) say that exact things.

If you are to take your AMD reps answer for good stuff (Aka. Robert Hallock, a PR marketing guy.). Then arcodring to what he says, all DX11 cards should support Mantle. Yet they dont.

Mantle has a meaningful, though thin, layer of abstraction that would permit it to be compatible with any modern, programmable (e.g. DX11-11.2) graphics architecture.

 

[Noctifer616]

If you are to take your AMD reps answer for good stuff (Aka. Robert Hallock, a PR marketing guy.). Then arcodring to what he says, all DX11 cards should support Mantle. Yet they dont.

He says two things. Certain feature set (DX 11.2 level) and high programability (which older AMD cards are not).

An architecture needs to meet both requirements, not just one. Same goes for DX 12 and why it only works on GCN on AMD hardware.

 

[ShintaiDK]

He says two things. Certain feature set (DX 11.2 level) and high programability (which older AMD cards are not).

An architecture needs to meet both requirements, not just one. Same goes for DX 12 and why it only works on GCN on AMD hardware.

But thats not what he writes.

First he writes that basicly any DX11+ uarch should support Mantle. Then later in another post he is excusing why AMD doesnt support it on their VLIWx uarchs.

This is nothing but marketing speak from him.

 

[monstercameron]

But thats not what he writes.

First he writes that basicly any DX11+ uarch should support Mantle. Then later in another post he is excusing why AMD doesnt support it on their VLIWx uarchs.

This is nothing but marketing speak from him.

then again AMD has never claimed support or said that they would write a mantle driver for vliw uarch cards. So your criticisms seem unwarranted.

 

[ShintaiDK]

then again AMD has never claimed support or said that they would write a mantle driver for vliw uarch cards. So your criticisms seem unwarranted.

I think you miss the point. My point is that this marketing guy isnt exactly the best one to relay/talk about this kind of information. Hence its more or less pointless to use him as a source.

I can perfectly understand why it doesnt work on VLIWx cards. Or why Mantle most likely will only work on very specific GCN uarchs.

 

[Noctifer616]

But thats not what he writes.

First he writes that basicly any DX11+ uarch should support Mantle. Then later in another post he is excusing why AMD doesnt support it on their VLIWx uarchs.

This is nothing but marketing speak from him.

Ok. Let's ignore him. What feature does Nvidia have since Fermi that AMD implemented in GCN? Here is a hint, the feature is supported by both DX12 and Mantle, but not by DX11.2 and OpenGL 4.4.

This feature is one of the reasons why DX12 works on Nvidia cards since Fermi, but on AMD only on GCN.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Ok. Let's ignore him. What feature does Nvidia have since Fermi that AMD implemented in GCN? Here is a hint, the feature is supported by both DX12 and Mantle, but not by DX11.2 and OpenGL 4.4.

This feature is one of the reasons why DX12 works on Nvidia cards since Fermi, but on AMD only on GCN.

DX12 API for reduced overhead only requires DX11 features.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Then it should have been a piece of cake to get it running for GDC, no?
But instead...

WRUM WRUM

The issue may be here:

For years....while AMDs Roy Taylor was busy talking about that there may be no DX12:
http://tech-beta.slashdot.org/story/13/04/12/1847250/amd-says-there-will-be-no-directx-12-ever

 

[Noctifer616]

DX12 API for reduced overhead only requires DX11 features.

No. There is a specific feature which both DX 12 (the one that runs on current hardware) and Mantle support but DX 11.2 doesn't.

Common, you have to know this.

 

[ShintaiDK]

No. There is a specific feature which both DX 12 (the one that runs on current hardware) and Mantle support but DX 11.2 doesn't.

Common, you have to know this.

Please tell me AND document what Gen7.5, Fermi, Kepler, Maxwell and GCN got in common thats not part of DX11.x, yet required in Mantle and DX12.

 

[Noctifer616]

Please tell me AND document what Gen7.5, Fermi, Kepler, Maxwell and GCN got in common thats not part of DX11.x, yet required in Mantle and DX12.

Asynchronous Compute.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Asynchronous Compute.

I asked you to document it as well.

Feature in the different uarchs and the requirement for DX12 and Mantle.

I await the documentation from you.

 

[SirPauly]

The issue may be here:

For years....while AMDs Roy Taylor was busy talking about that there may be no DX12:
http://tech-beta.slashdot.org/story/13/04/12/1847250/amd-says-there-will-be-no-directx-12-ever

Indeed he was and was ridiculous!

 

[Noctifer616]

I asked you to document it as well.

Feature in the different uarchs and the requirement for DX12 and Mantle.

I await the documentation from you.

What is there to document? GCN has ACEs, older architectures don't. It doesn't work in DX 11.2 while it is supported in Mantle and DX 12.