Donald Trump releases his birth certificate, demands Obama does the same

[Fern]

Every state has a birth certificate correction form for errors made on the original. Guess no one can be president. ANARCHY, fuck yeah!!!
-snip-

What's your point?

I made the observation that producing the original long form would reveal any changes that may have been made. If you want to challange the accuracy of that, go ahead. But instead jumping to silly remarks like "no one can be president" or "anarchy' reveal just how irrational and childish you are on this issue.

BTW: You're one the 'anti-birthers' spouting just as much factually incorrect info as many birthers. You're the flip side of the wingnut coin.

Fern

 

[IceBergSLiM]

why not just produce the original? Still not getting answers here. Why even perpetuate the rumor or debate?

 

[jonks]

What's your point?

I made the observation that producing the original long form would reveal any changes that may have been made. If you want to challange the accuracy of that, go ahead. But instead jumping to silly remarks like "no one can be president" or "anarchy' reveal just how irrational and childish you are on this issue.

BTW: You're one the 'anti-birthers' spouting just as much factually incorrect info as many birthers. You're the flip side of the wingnut coin.

There is no other side of the coin Fern. Either you accept the conclusion demanded by any rational examination of the mountain of evidence indicating one set of facts, or you choose to cling to purported loophoes like those who argue ID over evolution.

I think I misinterpreted what you previously wrote though, when you said "I have no idea why the original would be changed," I thought you meant you couldn't see why HI allowed changes to birth certs. Apologies on that.

 

[jonks]

why not just produce the original? Still not getting answers here. Why even perpetuate the rumor or debate?

I did answer that already:


He's already produced what any other citizen would have to produce, proven what he's been required to prove, additionally supported with complementary evidence published in newspapers at the time of his birth. It's not up to him or HI or anyone else to do special reconnaissance because nut cases don't like brown people with mooslim names.

Seriously, you could show those people the "long form" and you think that would stop them? No. Because we saw what happened when he produced the COLB. And there's no dispute that it is an actual COLB right? Wrong. When it was released it was called a fraud, a forgery, a photoshop job, the numbers weren't right, the info was in the wrong place, it didn't have a crease, a seal, the color was off, it smelled funny, etc etc etc. The same shit would happen no matter what document he produced. You're dealing with an intransigent demographic here. Humoring nutcases sets bad precedent. Look at matts posts above regarding that executive order. Does he sound to you like a person looking to be swayed by reason or evidence?

 

[Matt1970]

There is no other side of the coin Fern. Either you accept the conclusion demanded by any rational examination of the mountain of evidence indicating one set of facts, or you choose to cling to purported loophoes like those who argue ID over evolution.

I think I misinterpreted what you previously wrote though, when you said "I have no idea why the original would be changed," I thought you meant you couldn't see why HI allowed changes to birth certs. Apologies on that.

A rational conclusion would be he needs to show the original document, not make excuses or spend millions of dollars to hide it. It makes no sence whatsoever to hide it.

 

[Matt1970]

A certified copy of a birth certificate has a registrar's raised, embossed, impressed or multicolored seal, registrar’s signature, and the date the certificate was filed with the registrar's office, which must be within 1 year of the person’s date of birth.

How to Get a Certified Birth Certificate

The federal government does not provide copies of birth certificates, marriage licenses, divorce decrees, death certificates, or any other personal vital records. Copies of birth certificates and other personal vital records can only be obtained from the state or US possession where the documents were originally filed. Most states provide a centralized source from which birth certificates and other vital records can be ordered.

Each state and US possession has its own set of rules and fees for ordering certified birth certificates on other vital records. Rules, ordering instructions and fees for all 50 states, the District of Columbia and all US possessions can be found on the Where to Write for Vital Records web page, helpfully maintained by the US Centers for Disease Control.

When ordering, be aware that shortened (abstract) versions of birth certificates offered by some states may not be acceptable for US passport purposes. Be sure to order only the full, certified copy of the original birth certificate bearing the registrar's raised, embossed, impressed or multicolored seal, registrar’s signature, and the date the certificate was filed with the registrar's office.

That document probably wouldn't even qualify for a passport.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

I did answer that already:

Because 'he doesn't want to' and 'he doesn't have to' isn't being debated. If the best justification is because people won't believe him, then that is just as much a LOL rationale as the birthers reasoning for wanting him to show it.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

That document probably wouldn't evel qualify for a passport.

Are you implying he's been traveling the world without a passport?

 

[Matt1970]

Are you implying he's been traveling the world without a passport?

Probably. I don't think there is an Imigration checkpoint for Airforce One

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Probably. I don't think there is an Imigration checkpoint for Airforce One

He went to Kenya before he was president though! But he probably used his Kenyan passport right?

 

[Matt1970]

He went to Kenya before he was president though! But he probably used his Kenyan passport right?

Sure, dual Citizenship

 

[Jhhnn]

A certified copy of a birth certificate has a registrar's raised, embossed, impressed or multicolored seal, registrar’s signature, and the date the certificate was filed with the registrar's office, which must be within 1 year of the person’s date of birth.

How to Get a Certified Birth Certificate

The federal government does not provide copies of birth certificates, marriage licenses, divorce decrees, death certificates, or any other personal vital records. Copies of birth certificates and other personal vital records can only be obtained from the state or US possession where the documents were originally filed. Most states provide a centralized source from which birth certificates and other vital records can be ordered.

Each state and US possession has its own set of rules and fees for ordering certified birth certificates on other vital records. Rules, ordering instructions and fees for all 50 states, the District of Columbia and all US possessions can be found on the Where to Write for Vital Records web page, helpfully maintained by the US Centers for Disease Control.

When ordering, be aware that shortened (abstract) versions of birth certificates offered by some states may not be acceptable for US passport purposes. Be sure to order only the full, certified copy of the original birth certificate bearing the registrar's raised, embossed, impressed or multicolored seal, registrar’s signature, and the date the certificate was filed with the registrar's office.

That document probably wouldn't even qualify for a passport.

As Jonks has noted, Birtherism is something that simply can't be satisfied, and includes enormous amounts of conjecture and assuming facts not in evidence for believers to, well, to believe.

The observation that Obama's COLB wouldn't serve for passport purposes is absurd, and an excellent example of willful blindness on the part of Birthers and their apologists. The Obama ceritificate meets all 3 criteria, no matter how badly you want to believe it doesn't.

Fern still hasn't clarified this, either-

To not show the full document (as an original would) and then spend money in court to stop it from being seen should raise questions in reasonable people.

Who spent money, Fern?

 

[Matt1970]

As Jonks has noted, Birtherism is something that simply can't be satisfied, and includes enormous amounts of conjecture and assuming facts not in evidence for believers to, well, to believe.

It is EASILY satisfied. Show the Birth Certificate

 

[CallMeJoe]

...That document probably wouldn't even qualify for a passport.

I knew you were dim, but did you even look at the document you dispute?

 

[CallMeJoe]

It is EASILY satisfied. Show the Birth Certificate

They have. Get over it.

At this point, they could release a film of Barack Obama's head cresting the birth canal with the Arizona Memorial in the background and you'd still say it wasn't legitimate.

 

[jonks]

A rational conclusion would be he needs to show the original document, not make excuses or spend millions of dollars to hide it. It makes no sence whatsoever to hide it.

Also debunked. You're just a walking talking fount of misinformation.

And maybe I missed it but were you saying Obama's COLB, what every HI citizen who requests their birth cert is sent, isn't sufficient to get a passport? Because that reaches a new kind of dumb.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
Fern still hasn't clarified this, either-



Who spent money, Fern?

Does it really matter?

How does it affect the point? (The point being why go to great lengths to avoid showing a document that should arguably be shown anyway and should be innocuous.)

I can only think of only 3 reasons to fight showing your long form. (1) You want to set some kind of precident in court. But I have no idea what type of valid purpose that might serve. (2) You want to create the appearence that you have something to hide. (3) You have something to hide.

I have heard others say he is doing this for political purposes, to draw out birthers and make them continue to look stupid. But judging by the polling numbers that has been a dismal failure, so I disregard it.

Finally, to answer your specific question, I don't know who wrote the checks for legal fees.

It was probably Soros.

Fern

 

[jonks]

Because 'he doesn't want to' and 'he doesn't have to' isn't being debated. If the best justification is because people won't believe him, then that is just as much a LOL rationale as the birthers reasoning for wanting him to show it.

That's not what I said. I said he's done what he legally has to and nothing else he does will satisfy those who aren't already satisfied, and it sets a precendent of catering to the crazies. Why exactly should he stop after producing the 'long form"? What if people still aren't satisfied and demand more, affidavits from hospital staff perhaps? DNA tests? When exactly should he stop? While the "long form" seems to be in your mind the rational place to stop, no birther would. If the official documents and official statements issued from state officials in HI and the newspaper postings don't satisfy you, why the hell would you believe one more piece of useless paper?

 

[Jhhnn]

It is EASILY satisfied. Show the Birth Certificate

Which is the whole point- that question has been asked and answered by the State of Hawaii, remember? Are you saying they're lying? Is the Anti-gubmint insanity so strong in you that nothing will do?

I suspect it is. No matter what, Birthers will claim that any document produces fails to met their criteria, is forged, and verifies some massive Kenyan time warp mind control conspiracy dating back to Obama's birth.

It's the perfect sort of distraction needed by the leaders of the Right, bet on that. Instead of looking at themselves, and the lies they believe in so fervently, Birthers get served up a way to engage in denial.

Not that factual information will make much of a dent in what they believe about things that matter, like how the economy got crashed, how we came to engage in 2 wars of endless occupation, how the top .1% now has the annual income of the bottom 50% combined, or how it is that jobs, particularly ones that pay decently, are so scarce.

Maybe it's better that raving Birthers concern themselves with their pet conspiracy theory, because it exposes them for the delusional loons they really are....

 

[jonks]

Finally, to answer your specific question, I don't know who wrote the checks for legal fees.

It was probably Soros.

We can start with "where does the claim that he spent millions even come from?" Well if you guessed an idiot hack, you'd be right.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/01/whats-obamas-birther-legal-bill

 

[Jhhnn]

Does it really matter?

How does it affect the point? (The point being why go to great lengths to avoid showing a document that should arguably be shown anyway and should be innocuous.)

I can only think of only 3 reasons to fight showing your long form. (1) You want to set some kind of precident in court. But I have no idea what type of valid purpose that might serve. (2) You want to create the appearence that you have something to hide. (3) You have something to hide.

I have heard others say he is doing this for political purposes, to draw out birthers and make them continue to look stupid. But judging by the polling numbers that has been a dismal failure, so I disregard it.

Finally, to answer your specific question, I don't know who wrote the checks for legal fees.

It was probably Soros.

Fern

It matters, Fern, and we both know it. You're the one who introduced it to the discussion, so I figured maybe you knew what you were talking about- I certainly don't. Apparently I was mistaken, huh?

 

[Fern]

We can start with "where does the claim that he spent millions even come from?" Well if you guessed an idiot hack, you'd be right.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/01/whats-obamas-birther-legal-bill

I don't claim to know how much has been spent.

But having been personally involved in civil litigation, I know damn well fighting off 60 cases, no matter how crappy, ain't no walk in the park nor is it cheap. You can't just refuse to respond, no matter how baseless, or you'll lose. Your lawyer is going to have prep, write a response and/or motions, go to scheduling meetings at the courthouse, and probably show up in court.

When considering the cost, I think it also fair to add in the cost of court officials and judges etc.

I don't know much has been expended, but it's not an immaterial sum.

Fern

 

[Fern]

It matters, Fern, and we both know it. You're the one who introduced it to the discussion, so I figured maybe you knew what you were talking about- I certainly don't. Apparently I was mistaken, huh?

What difference does it make if the money comes out of his personal account, his campaign account or the Treasury? It's still his decision to expend it.

Fern

 

[jonks]

an oldie but goodie

The problem is that wouldn't dispel all the conspiracy theories. You can never appease them, even when you meet their demands with facts.

Conspiracy theorists claimed he wasn't a citizen.
Obama had the copy of birth certificate the campaign obtained released.
Conspiracy theorists said it was PhotoShop and "proved it" with analysis of text halos, lack of creases, lack of a raised seal, etc. . .
Obama had third parties examine it and more images popped up showing clear text, creases, a raised seal, etc. . .
Conspiracy theorists said it was a forgery and had "proof" from their forensic analysts.
Obama had the staffers in the Hawaii Department of Health verify that the document number was that of a legitimate birth certificate.
Conspiracy theorists said they wouldn't believe it unless someone from the state made a public and official statement.
Obama had the Health Department Director and the registrar of vital statistics issue a press release stating they personally verified that the health department holds Obama's original birth certificate.

What's next? After releasing the original birth certificate, conspiracy theorists will want affidavits from the doctors and nurses. After releasing LSAT scores, conspiracy theorists will want every paper written while in law school. After releasing college transcripts, conspiracy theorists will want every exam taken in college. After releasing SAT scores, conspiracy theorists will want high school transcripts.

Conspiracy theorists claim cover up by the Governor, ignoring that she's Republican and has been anti-Obama. Conspiracy theorists claim special restrictions by the Hawaii government just for Obama's records, ignoring that the laws preventing the general release of everyone's records have been on the books for decades. Conspiracy theorists claim he wasn't born in Hawaii, ignoring the birth certificate and birth announcement in the paper. Conspiracy theorists claim he has a Kenyan birth certificate, ignoring the fact that they weren't required for foreigners back then, and foreigners had to find the right government office, wade through layers of bureaucracy, and pay a fee to get a Kenyan birth certificate issued.

The tinfoil hat brigade believes in a plot by both Republicans and Democrats, by a state governor and state officials, by the US government and the Kenyan government, by today's media and newspapers back in the 60s, and apparently in a white teenager's ability to mastermind a scheme to lay down a paper trail to make her Kenyan born son appear to be a natural born citizen because in the 1961 she thought her half black kid would someday become president, but also in a teenage mastermind that's somehow stupid enough to jump through hoops to pay for a Kenyan birth certificate before rushing back to the US.

Everyone else believes Obama was born in Hawaii.

 

[dennilfloss]

The plot thickens...

http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/03/29...ald-trumps-birth-certificate-isnt-legitimate/

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/52148.html

As for OBama...

http://factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html