That's the same justification that supported communism. Goldielocks economics. Not too rich, not too poor. Let's make everyone have the same amount. <Sigh> F'ing pinkos.
That's the same justification that supported communism. Goldielocks economics. Not too rich, not too poor. Let's make everyone have the same amount. <Sigh> F'ing pinkos.
DanTMWTMP
Lifer
- Oct 7, 2001
- 15,908
- 19
- 81
this is stupid and unfair to the successful people who worked their butts off to get where they are.....
if you didn't study hard and have 2 kids and don't make much money, that's your fault...
every worker should be taxed to some extent.
I hope this one doesn't pass ..
if you don't prepare yourself for a capitalistic society..then it's your fault...having a 2nd kid while making only <50k a year is your fault.....damn what the hell is the gov't thinking?
if you didn't study hard and have 2 kids and don't make much money, that's your fault...
every worker should be taxed to some extent.
I hope this one doesn't pass ..
if you don't prepare yourself for a capitalistic society..then it's your fault...having a 2nd kid while making only <50k a year is your fault.....damn what the hell is the gov't thinking?
I forgot the term for it but unemployment insurance would be difficult to privatize because unemployment becomes a voluntary situation. You can elect to stay unemployed, not look for a job and milk your benefits until insurance runs out.
slag
Lifer
- Dec 14, 2000
- 10,473
- 81
- 101
Incorrect about the last part. My neighbor is currently unemployed and taxes are taken out of his unemployment check. Money coming to him that he earned (he paid into unemployment while he was employed) is taken out of his check. He is taxed on his unemployment check.
Originally posted by: ShotgunSteve
I agree. What was Steve Forbes' (I think it was him) flat tax plan? First $30, 000.00 is tax free, after that a flat tax of 17%? The rich would still pay more in taxes, since they have more money to pay the 17% on. I am not one of those that believes the wealthy ought to be penalized simply because they have more money.Originally posted by: amnesiac Gee, my parents only pay about 50% of their income to the government. What's 5% more, they're LOADED!!I still think flat tax is the way to go. That and eliminate waste in the government.
I love the idea of a flat tax. I wonder how much money could be saved if the government dumped the present byzantine tax system which serves no purpose other than creating political division between classes - and a shitload of paperwork.
slag
Lifer
- Dec 14, 2000
- 10,473
- 81
- 101
I'm on both sides of the fence. I used to tend to agree that its not the governments place to aid in wealth distribution, but I've seen the practice work for farmers for a long time and it really helps. Gov't subsidies on crops are one way the govt helps in wealth distribution. If a farmer has a bad year with crops, they can apply for and get money for the government to help them survive. Sometimes its not enough (my father in law drives trucks and farms because farming doesnt cut it anymore), but it is help and he currently does not rely on subsidies and govt aid, so, at least in his case, its not just a bandaid for the problem.
I think that taxing successful people more because they are successful at what they do is crummy also, dont get me wrong, however, I think its the lesser of two evils when compared to taxing everybody flatly across the board. A flat tax is FAIR to everyone, however, people need to realize life isnt FAIR and people sometimes get dealt bad hands. I work hard to make a living at what I do and think its my right and priviledge to help those less fortunate than I am. I dont have enough to donate regularly to philanthropic organizations, but do help with donations to non profit organizations and other groups that help people.
Allow me to modify my first post slightly. I would be in favor of the richer people paying more taxes as long as the tax money went directly to helping people instead of defense funds, special interests, and the like. If it could be applied directly to Social Security or some other method of directly assisting people, then I am all for it.
Everyone should just pay a certain percentage of their income, flat across the board for all income levels. There should be no further reform of that idea. Its simple, its fair, and it makes sense.
Also, redistribution of wealth is actually good for everyone. Having a high median per capita income is a good thing. Its not like the wealthy are going to go broke because of taxes.
Also, redistribution of wealth is actually good for everyone. Having a high median per capita income is a good thing. Its not like the wealthy are going to go broke because of taxes.
DT4K
Diamond Member
- Jan 21, 2002
- 6,944
- 3
- 81
Wow, the more you post, the more I understand why you would say such idiotic stuff.Originally posted by: ScottyB
Originally posted by: Vic
Well, given the financial "wisdom" we've heard from you thus far, I suppose that really shouldn't surprise me...
I'm in college.
Let's see how you feel about that in a couple of years after you join the real world.
By the way, I think that's called Canada.
The counter-argument is that a flat tax is regressive. The rich are paying taxes from entirely disposable income, where the middle classers are having to tighten their belts.
I would like a higher tax rate than 17%, with a bit higher floor- like $40,000 tax free. But I am not an economist, so like the rest of you, I don't know shIt.
At least you're man enough to admit it unlike the rest of the hand waving asshats around these parts.
DT4K
Diamond Member
- Jan 21, 2002
- 6,944
- 3
- 81
Quit making stuff up.
If you make 25k, after the standard deduction, your taxable income is around 17k. Your tax rate is around 15%, so your total federal taxes should be around $2300.
You pay around 9% of your gross income in federal taxes.
And I got news for you, 9% is not the same as 20%.
But even if you actually did pay 20% of your income in federal taxes, that would mean $5000 a year. And no, even if that were the case, you shouldn't get upset.
At least not nearly as upset as the people who have to pay $50,000 a year in taxes. Why should they have to contribute so much more money than you? I doubt they use the military, roads, school system, social services, etc, etc, any more than you do.
If you want to talk about a truly fair system, not even a flat tax would do.
A truly fair system would require every citizen to contribute the same amount of money. Not the same percentage, but the same amount.
Now obviously this would never be practical, so a flat tax rate is the next best option.
I honestly dont' know why anyone would think a flat tax is not progressive enough.
The rich would still pay far more than the poor. If I make twice as much, I pay twice as much.
But there should be no floor on it. Say we have to have make the rate 12%. If you earn 100 bucks in a year, you should have to pay 12 in taxes.
Just like the guy who makes 100k will have to pay 12k.
Even if the rich still pay far more than their fair share, at least it will remove the disincentive of higher rates for earning more.
sounds fine to me. if i made over $200K a year, i would expect to pay more taxes, I wouldn't have a problem with that. After all, you took that money from someone else, it didn't just materialize out of thin air. It's only right to give some of it back. Besides, he's talking about 5%, big freaking deal, you might have forego to moonroof on your new M3. cry me a river.
What an ass!
"After all, you took that money from someone else, it didn't just materialize out of thin air."
Somebody PAID you for your services. It wasn't 'taken'. Lord knows you'll know better what to do with my money than I do.
"After all, you took that money from someone else, it didn't just materialize out of thin air."
Somebody PAID you for your services. It wasn't 'taken'. Lord knows you'll know better what to do with my money than I do.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
Let me clarify this. You pay me for my products and/or services and I am taking your money?? Are you not then taking my products and/or services??
And I suddenly have a strong feeling that 5% of $200k is more than you ever made in a year, so it would be big freaking deal, now wouldn't it? And you could buy a lot of sunroofs for $20k, idiot.
I'm not a flat tax proponent (it's called a moral imperative, people), but this is the only way that you can call a flat tax fair.
The fact is that a flat tax across the board with no exceptions is absolutely not fair to those making small amounts of money (peri-poverty line levels). If you're making $20k a year, a 20% flat tax knocks $4k off your available income, bringing you down to $16k a year, which is considerably harder to live on. (Not that $20k was easy, mind you... I've been there) Meanwhile, someone making $1e6 a year gets $200k knocked off, bringing them to $800k a year, which is not *meaningfully* harder to live on. Those that make the most within this hypothetical tax system are impacted (in terms of quality of life) the least by the tax, and vice versa, which makes it inherently unfair. Fairness would imply that all parties are impacted equally.
The way to make a flat tax fair is to decide on a number over which the tax doesn't meaningfully (and man does this term have to be debated) affect the payer's quality of life, and begin the tax there. Certainly at a minimum there should be no tax on those making under the poverty level.
All that being said, and at the risk of being called a socialist, I do believe that those who make the most in this country have a moral obligation to contribute more to it. And speaking of socialism...
Can you please tell me when and where true socialism has ever been tried at the national level, let alone failed? And please don't confuse socialism with communism...it's just not pretty, and shows an ignorance of the topic.
Graduated Income tax is borderline illegal. Not to mention insanely stupid.
I can't believe you guys who are defending the super rich. There you are, middle, to upper middle class joes, getting raped by the big guys.
Though, when someone actually wants to DO something about it, everyone backs off like it's the plague.
One of the fundamental classic arguments a "republican" puts up is how the economy was booted during Ronald Reagen's because of tax cuts.
Eliminating taxes all together for a the 50K bracket down may not be the best way to go about it, they definatly have the right notions.
I can't believe you guys who are defending the super rich. There you are, middle, to upper middle class joes, getting raped by the big guys.
Though, when someone actually wants to DO something about it, everyone backs off like it's the plague.
One of the fundamental classic arguments a "republican" puts up is how the economy was booted during Ronald Reagen's because of tax cuts.
Eliminating taxes all together for a the 50K bracket down may not be the best way to go about it, they definatly have the right notions.
As a person whose family makes a good amt of $$, I think this is a good idea. A very good idea.
Edit: By that I mean its fair to rich people.. not that its necessarily SMART economically. There is a difference between what is fair and what is smart. I don't know enough about the plan to say its smart.
Edit: By that I mean its fair to rich people.. not that its necessarily SMART economically. There is a difference between what is fair and what is smart. I don't know enough about the plan to say its smart.
Originally posted by: Vic
Let me clarify this. You pay me for my products and/or services and I am taking your money?? Are you not then taking my products and/or services??
:|:|:|:|
And I suddenly have a strong feeling that 5% of $200k is more than you ever made in a year, so it would be big freaking deal, now wouldn't it? And you could buy a lot of sunroofs for $20k, idiot.
5% of 200K is $10K. shall i arrange a meeting with a 3rd grade math tutor for you? or if that's too expensive for you because you've gotta tighten your belt for those heavy taxes, Windows has a great calculator. Go to Start, Programs, Accessories, Calculator. but you're right, i'd have to do without the moonroof, premium package, SMG, Nav, and 19" wheels. man, it must be really tough to have to make sacrafices like that.
and despite being a full time student, i've more than double that 5% in a year. if i worked full time, i'd be making over 100K, and i'd be happy to pay appropriate taxes for that, the same way i'm happy to pay my taxes now.
Ornery, you are correct that it isn't stealing the way we're used to thinking about it. But if Mr. X gets paid $500K a year to sit in his office, play golf, and fire people, he does so because 500 Mr. Y's are working their butts off earning Mr. X's money. Chris Zimmerman makes god knows how many millions each year because he exploits child labor in other countries building Nikes. Tiger Woods gets millions of dollars from Buick because that money didn't go to the people building the cars. Whether you think that's "right" or not is kind of a personal moral thing. But they certainly didn't work their butts off to get it (certainly not as hard as the factory workers). Tiger just happens to have been born with a talent that happens to be worth lots of money. is that "fair?" And who knows about Zimmerman, but it's probably safe to say that he leveraged something other his work ethic to get where he is today. Certainly his company has done that. That's the way America's economy works. We improve our situation by taking the resources of other countries, and even by taking the resources of our own poor. They need us to take their resources, so we exploit that power by giving them unfair wages. Yeah, they could just choose not to work for us, but they'd starve to death. So we're "helping them out" but really it's just a great way to steal AND look like saviors. Is that right? It's not their fault they were born in Malaysia or wherever.
I realize that this forum is largely populated with people with above-average incomes. That's how you afford to maintain hobbies as expensive as high-end computers and electronics. So I'm not expecting to have anyone agree with me, and I'm not even supporting socialism or anything so radical. I'm just trying to remind you that empathy is a trait that many of you seem to have forgotten. No one wants to be the "bad guy," but just realize that if you amass more than the average amount of wealth, it had to come from somewhere, and you know you're not working harder than the guy you took it from. I can't expect everyone to make the truely right choices, but don't kid yourself with your illusions of "fairness." I have more respect for someone who admits what's going on but still chooses to be selfish than someone who plays "see no evil hear no evil speak no evil."
Bwahahahahahahaha!!!! Making stuff up? Are you certain? Damn.... I wish I had a way to scan in my pay stubs....
Oh well, you will just have to trust me on this.
My gross weekly pay is about $500. That is assuming, of course, that I do not work the 8-10 hours overtime a week that my supervisers would like all of their employess to do. My weekly Federal Withholding is around $90 a week. Okay, you got me. I rounded a bit. It is a little less than 20%. But no where near 9%.
And just for the record, the only reason I am making around $25K is because I am working the night shift. If I was working days at the same job, I would be making less.
Now, maybe I haven't thought long and hard about what "richer" people than me would have to pay in taxes... (Probably because I am too busy working hard handling 150lb parts all night long.) But you are a damn fool if you think I am not going to get upset about 1/5th of my paycheck being taken by the greedy asshats that think they know what is best for me. I could care less if the government stands or falls. I would not care if all politicians were thrown out of the country. I am not even possitive I would even give a damn if they all died.
But gaddamnit I best be givin' them their money! I feel like the whore, while they are the pimps. Only difference is, at least the whore has something to show for the hard work at the end of the night. Even if it is just stains on clothing.
And let me take it down a notch. When I was doing day labor jobs. Getting paid each day I worked. I worked harder than I do now, and I was paid $6 an hour. You know what that amounts to? $48 dolars a day. What did the government take? $10 dolars a day. Know how I remember? That is about the same amount as a 6 pack of beer, and a sandwich from a good deli. When I realized they were taking out enough for a good lunch each day I was breaking my back, and sweating very personal parts off, while they were sitting in air conditioned offices smoking expensive cigars that they dipped in brandy and cheap sluts, while "discusing" what is best for us, that is when I started to loose what little interest I had left in our "democracy."
And please, before you try to "enlighten" me any further, don't waste your time trying to show me just how wrong I am. Because, I just do not care. I feel the way I feel, and that is all there is to it.
I had intended to answer other peoples questions, but right now I just do not feel like it. Good night.
Originally posted by: Electric Amish
Doesn't bother me because I'll never see 100g/year.
im still hoping for the 50
bah
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