Does racism require ones ethnicity to possess collective power

[Amused]

Something doesn't sit right with the definition the OP is discussing. Under the traditional definition of racism, anybody can be racist and thus equally guilty of doing wrong. However, under the definition the OP has brought up, only white people can be racist. This seems like a push, whether intentional or not, to further the incorrect "white privilege" agenda.

No, that is most certainly NOT the "traditional definition of racism."

This is:

rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/
noun

1. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
   • the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
     noun: racism

 

[glenn1]

Something doesn't sit right with the definition the OP is discussing. Under the traditional definition of racism, anybody can be racist and thus equally guilty of doing wrong. However, under the definition the OP has brought up, only white people can be racist. This seems like a push, whether intentional or not, to further the incorrect "white privilege" agenda.

Adjusting the definitions of words over time to incorporate new concepts or ways of thinking aren't inherently bad, especially if the "old" definition included assumptions that were no longer accepted as self-evident truths or were bigoted to begin with. For example, expanding "gender" from its old definition (where it was pretty much exclusively a grammatical function) to allow people to more accurately describe their sense of identity isn't a bad thing. However this value gets lost when the new definition seeks to undermine or obscure a primary characteristic of the old word, "racism" trying to incorporate a power imbalance as part of the definition is an example. The existing definition has a precise and meaningful usage that is actually weakened by including the new element; "racism" describes a kind of thinking or belief system. Changing the word to conflate the ability to effectively act upon it (the "power" element) completely negates the purpose of the word to describe the thought or belief that underlies racism. It would be akin to saying "the word anger should be changed to include punching someone you're mad at." Everyone would think that was completely stupid and be correct, because anger is describing the feeling and not an act which might result from it. For the later we use a different word with a different definition, "assault." One word covers the feeling, the other an act. Racism is the same, you can have racist thoughts and no power to act upon them but your thoughts are still racist.

 

[Aspiring Techie]

No, that is most certainly NOT the "traditional definition of racism."

This is:

rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/
noun

1. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
   • the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
     noun: racism

This seems to match up with what I have described as the traditional definition of racism. The first part seems to deal with actions directed towards others which are motivated by the belief that one's race is superior. Everyone is capable of doing harm to others. The second part deals with the belief that one's race is superior, which anybody can have. I don't see the discrepancy that you see. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[JSt0rm]

Hello broken record. You gave up in the other thread were a productive discussion happened, so you are trying again in this thread.

As you can see, there are many different opinions about how to define racism. People are debating what they think is the correct term. The OP created this thread because someone disagreed what his view of the definition, and to see if others agreed or disagreed.

Tell me, do you fantasize about the OP creating threads so you might have a chance to join in on them? You seem to care a lot about the OP.

I think its funny the usual snowflakes show up worried about being racist. race realists am i right?

 

[realibrad]

I think its funny the usual snowflakes show up worried about being racist. race realists am i right?

You might be on drugs. This thread is not about someone feeling or being worried about being racist. Its about how the term is used. Some think it requires a power difference, and others believe its as simple as believing one race is better than the other.

So, what person has expressed ideas about them being worried about being racist? Are you seeing something that is not there?

 

[Amused]

This seems to match up with what I have described as the traditional definition of racism. The first part seems to deal with actions directed towards others which are motivated by the belief that one's race is superior. Everyone is capable of doing harm to others. The second part deals with the belief that one's race is superior, which anybody can have. I don't see the discrepancy that you see. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Racism requires a belief in racial superiority/inferiority.

Without a belief in an inherent superiority, it is merely racial prejudice.

Let's use examples:

A white guy thinks black people are stupid, less evolved and inherently inferior. That white guy is racist.

A black guy having grown up in a system with institutionalized racism against black people resents white people and assumes all white people are racist. That black guy is not racist himself, but harbors racial resentment and prejudice.​

If the races were reversed, it would be the same.

A black guy thinks white people are stupid, less evolved and inherently inferior. That black guy is racist.

A white guy having grown up in a system with institutionalized racism against white people resents black people and assumes all black people are racist. That white guy is not racist himself, but harbors racial resentment and prejudice.​

But the reality of the world is rooted in the first example, thus it would be quite rare to find a genuinely racist black person who's racial prejudice is rooted in a belief if his own racial superiority.

 

[realibrad]

Racism requires a belief in racial superiority/inferiority.

Without a belief in an inherent superiority, it is merely racial prejudice.

Let's use examples:

A white guy thinks black people are stupid, less evolved and inherently inferior. That white guy is racist.

A black guy having grown up in a system with institutionalized racism against black people resents white people and assumes all white people are racist. That black guy is not racist himself, but harbors racial resentment and prejudice.​

If the races were reversed, it would be the same.

A black guy thinks white people are stupid, less evolved and inherently inferior. That black guy is racist.

A white guy having grown up in a system with institutionalized racism against white people resents black people and assumes all black people are racist. That white guy is not racist himself, but harbors racial resentment and prejudice.​

But the reality of the world is rooted in the first example, thus it would be quite rare to find a genuinely racist black person who's racial prejudice is rooted in a belief if his own racial superiority.

So just a quick note, by your definition, the Black guy would also be racist.

If his presumption is that all white people are racist, then he believes all white people have an inherent flaw, which is based on their race. Thus, the Prejudice based on race fits the definition.

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.[/quote/

Believing that the whites have a flaw and the other races do not is a belief that other races are superior in that one area. If you want to make the argument that its over all superior/inferior judgement, then you have not established that with the white guy either. So, either the White guy is not racist, or both are racist by your definition.

 

[Aspiring Techie]

Tell me, what evidence is there for institutional racism?

 

[hal2kilo]

Threads like this remind me of something said by good old Frank Zappa many decades ago "I'm not black, but there's times when I wish I could say I'm not white"

 

[realibrad]

Tell me, what evidence is there for institutional racism?

Tell me, why are you bringing up institutional racism?

 

[pmv]

How are you defining power then? Anyone has power in some circumstances and differing levels of power in any given situation. If I were a judge I’d have awesome power in the courtroom, yet effectively zero while in a Mexican jail, am I racist at the first moment but not the second given the same statement “whites are inferior to blacks”?


Saying power is a needed element of being a racist requires you to have some way of determining what level of power is required and when. Otherwise your own premise entails magically flip-flopping between “not a racist, now a racist, not a racist again” from moment to moment based on circumstances.

But all words depend for their meaning on context and circumstances. They don't exist as some platonic ideal form distinct from usage and reality. We interpret meaning from context all the time - that's why AI struggles with natural language, I guess. The context, the speaker, and the medium are all part of the message.

Also, your example refers to 'a racist', as if racist is something you _are_, an absolute property of an individual, rather than a property of a behaviour or action or situation. I'm not really sure I agree with that, as it happens. In the end, it's always about actions.

Really 'racism = predjudice + power' isn't, as far as I'm concerned anyway, an absolute definitive definition of a word.

It's a retort to people with power trying to equate things like the guy in the original story declaring he's not going to redeliver misdirected post in person, with something that has adversely affected, and indeed, ended, people's lives for generations. It's just not the same thing, and using the same word for both is too often used as a way to try and pretend it is.

 

[Jaskalas]

Not in my opinion. Majority or power position doesnt matter. If you feel you are a superior race to another then you are a racist regardless if you are the low man on the power position totem pole.

Meaning you are racist, just with no political power to really push your racist views onto others.

Huh... surely that sentiment is not necessary to be racist. There are more ways, such as hating another race. And in fact, I might suggest that sort of back and forth negative attitude is far more common than a superiority complex. Tribalism is much more layered into our everyday interactions, one must not limit the definition of its harm to individual cases or scenarios. It is pervasive and it is nearly everywhere. And racism is just another shade of our implicit biases, our tribal nature. A weed growing in our garden of mental acuity, trying to entangle us on our quest for enlightenment.

Example, Trump is a terrible person. Are his voters terrible people? We stereotype ALL the time. For all sorts of different groups or divisions of people. Supremacy may be a book on that shelf, but its a very large shelf with a harmful history on human interaction(s).

 

[Amused]

So just a quick note, by your definition, the Black guy would also be racist.

If his presumption is that all white people are racist, then he believes all white people have an inherent flaw, which is based on their race. Thus, the Prejudice based on race fits the definition.

Um, no. The black man in the first example assumes that all white people believe they are superior, and thus racist. He has no belief in his own superiority.

So no. This isn't rocket science here folks. The oppressed race who are victims of generational institutionalized racism are NOT racist for harboring resentment and racial prejudice against the race of their oppressors. There is no such thing as "reverse racism" no matter how much people want to project their faults onto others.

Racism is racial prejudice based upon a belief in one's inherent racial superiority. Therefore it is possible to have racial prejudice without being racist.

 

[Jaskalas]

No. It would be racial resentment. It would also be prejudice, yes.

Racism? No.

Racism requires an inherent belief in superiority. There is no such thing as "reverse racism."

The black person in question has no belief in his own racial superiority. Therefore no racism. He is racially prejudicial and resentful.

That cannot be right. White people are... whitewashed?... stereotyped ALL the time as racists. When your "racially prejudicial and resentful" could more accurately describe a great many of those interactions. Essentially, prejudicial and resentful IS racist because that is how our society has always treated it - with ZERO distinction. Why try and start one now?

Nuance on this topic is something the public has never desired nor put into practice. Everything that mocks, belittles, distinguishes, etc. has always been called racist, sans supremacist ideology. Don't stop now. No one would understand, appreciate, or actually follow through on it. It's going to be difficult enough to limit and/or affirm the label to those who honestly threat others differently based on their race.

We need to K.I.S.S.

 

[glenn1]

That cannot be right. White people are... whitewashed?... stereotyped ALL the time as racists. When your "racially prejudicial and resentful" could more accurately describe a great many of those interactions. Essentially, prejudicial and resentful IS racist because that is how our society has always treated it - with ZERO distinction. Why try and start one now?

Nuance on this topic is something the public has never desired nor put into practice. Everything that mocks, belittles, distinguishes, etc. has always been called racist, sans supremacist ideology. Don't stop now. No one would understand, appreciate, or actually follow through on it. It's going to be difficult enough to limit and/or affirm the label to those who honestly threat others differently based on their race.

We need to K.I.S.S.

I go back to my earlier statement, racism doesn’t include truthful observations about the world as it is. A black person observing that a lot of white people are racist or that they are at higher risk of being shot by a police officer isn’t racist. Just as it’s not racist when a white person makes the observation that blacks disproportionately commit homicide on a per capita basis.

That doesn’t mean that someone can’t build off that truthful observation into racial prejudice or true racism.

“I should be careful in my interactions with the police officer who stops me for my own safety” is observation when said by a black man.

“All white police officers have it out for us black guys and look for excuses to shoot us” Is racial prejudice when uttered by a black man.

Saying “Koreans are all cheating thieves and we should burn their stores” would be racist if uttered by a black man.

 

[realibrad]

Um, no. The black man in the first example assumes that all white people believe they are superior, and thus racist. He has no belief in his own superiority.

Actually he does. I presume you believe racism is bad. Thus, if he presumes all White people have this bad thing about them, he must then believe that his group is superior in that his group is not racist. So, if you believe there is another group that is worse than your group, you must also then believe your group is superior. Its literally required that if you think another group is not as good as your group, then your group must be superior.

So no. This isn't rocket science here folks. The oppressed race who are victims of generational institutionalized racism are NOT racist for harboring resentment and racial prejudice against the race of their oppressors. There is no such thing as "reverse racism" no matter how much people want to project their faults onto others.

Racism is racial prejudice based upon a belief in one's inherent racial superiority. Therefore it is possible to have racial prejudice without being racist.

You can harbor resentment against those who have harmed you, but once you presume everyone that is like the people in that group are inherently flawed, its racism. It seems like you are unaware that racial prejudice is called racism. Its funny because its literally the definition you posted.

 

[Amused]

Actually he does. I presume you believe racism is bad. Thus, if he presumes all White people have this bad thing about them, he must then believe that his group is superior in that his group is not racist. So, if you believe there is another group that is worse than your group, you must also then believe your group is superior. Its literally required that if you think another group is not as good as your group, then your group must be superior.

You can harbor resentment against those who have harmed you, but once you presume everyone that is like the people in that group are inherently flawed, its racism. It seems like you are unaware that racial prejudice is called racism. Its funny because its literally the definition you posted.

No. Again, this is not complicated. Not all racial prejudice is racism. Racism requires racial prejudice to be based on a belief of inherent superiority of one's own race. Full stop. One may have racial prejudice that is NOT based on a belief in one's own racial superiority. And that would NOT be racism.

I cannot explain it any more simply than that. I even gave examples. I can only assume you are either not intelligent enough to comprehend, or you are being willfully obtuse.


rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/
noun

1. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
   • the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
     noun: racism

 

[UglyCasanova]

No. Again, this is not complicated. Not all racial prejudice is racism. Racism requires racial prejudice to be based on a belief of inherent superiority of one's own race. Full stop. One may have racial prejudice that is NOT based on a belief in one's own racial superiority. And that would NOT be racism.

I cannot explain it any more simply than that. I even gave examples. I can only assume you are either not intelligent enough to comprehend, or you are being willfully obtuse.


rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/
noun

1. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
   • the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
     noun: racism

The point being that if the black person said all white people are racist he is in effect saying white people are inferior to blacks people (so conversely black people are superior to white people). By your definition that is racism.

I don’t think it is though because the black person doesn't have any sort of collective power so it can’t be racism. The most it could be is prejudice due to the lack of power. But just going by your definition it is someone claiming one race is superior (that they are not racist) over another race which is inferior (that they are all racist) so it definitely falls under your definition.

 

[JSt0rm]

You might be on drugs. This thread is not about someone feeling or being worried about being racist. Its about how the term is used. Some think it requires a power difference, and others believe its as simple as believing one race is better than the other.

So, what person has expressed ideas about them being worried about being racist? Are you seeing something that is not there?

look at you concern trolling the fuck out of this thread. We see you for what you are. No facade needed.

 

[UglyCasanova]

The "concern" posts you and a couple others make is nothing more than a big red flag to the rest of the posters on here that effectively says "I’ve got nothing to contribute". I guess it makes you feel edgy but man it just comes across as ignorance to most people. Feel free to actually add something to a thread at some point rather that just crapping in them.

 

[glenn1]

The point being that if the black person said all white people are racist he is in effect saying white people are inferior to blacks people (so conversely black people are superior to white people). By your definition that is racism.

I don’t think it is though because the black person doesn't have any sort of collective power so it can’t be racism. The most it could be is prejudice due to the lack of power. But just going by your definition it is someone claiming one race is superior (that they are not racist) over another race which is inferior (that they are all racist) so it definitely falls under your definition.

No it would be racially prejudiced if a black person said “all whites are racist” because that’s not comparing his race to others and judging it superior; he could also hold that all blacks are racist as well. It would be racist if the black person said “all whites are racists but blacks are not” or simply “blacks are better than whites.” Or “blacks can’t be racist.”

 

[Amused]

The point being that if the black person said all white people are racist he is in effect saying white people are inferior to blacks people (so conversely black people are superior to white people). By your definition that is racism.

I don’t think it is though because the black person doesn't have any sort of collective power so it can’t be racism. The most it could be is prejudice due to the lack of power. But just going by your definition it is someone claiming one race is superior (that they are not racist) over another race which is inferior (that they are all racist) so it definitely falls under your definition.

Wow, that's a powerful leap of logic you've got there.

Let's look at this again:

"The point being that if the black person said all white people are racist he is in effect saying white people are inferior to blacks people (so conversely black people are superior to white people). By your definition that is racism."

Yep. Wow. So how you get from someone assuming all people who look like their oppressors who keep them down with institutionalized racism based on the belief that white people are superior think the same way, to them thinking they, or black people in general, are superior is... well, simply amazing in it's psychological projection. It's like those Glenn Beck whiteboard that draw lines between random shit to make conspiracy theories.

Meanwhile, back in reality. Resentment based racial prejudice is rooted in the effects of being abused, not a feeling of superiority. Your tremendous leap of logic is akin to claiming an abused woman who now fears and resents all men does so because she thinks she is superior, rather than afraid and resentful.

Wow... Just fucking wow. It is simply amazing how desperately white people want to project their shit onto the very people they've held as "inferior" for so long.

 

[UglyCasanova]

No it would be racially prejudiced if a black person said “all whites are racist” because that’s not comparing his race to others and judging it superior; he could also hold that all blacks are racist as well. It would be racist if the black person said “all whites are racists but blacks are not” or simply “blacks are better than whites.” Or “blacks can’t be racist.”

Not according to the prevelant definition (which I disagree with because it doesn’t take into account power which is a requirement for something to be racist). Amused left off part 2:

rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/
noun

1. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
   • the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
     noun: racism
2. the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

It would fit either one of these though. Saying that all white people are racist suggests a negative trait attributable to all who have white skin, and this we can deduce that non-whites are superior at least in this regard (or some of them anyways). That would fit definition 1. Same if it were a white person that said all blacks are lazy, that’s a negative based on skin color and it certainly implies ones own superiority.

Definition 2 is more straightforward. "All whites are racist" is a characteristic based solely on skin color and distinguishes it as inferior (racism is a negative trait to have).


So going by the dictionary definition of racism a black person saying "all whites are racist" is indeed a racist comment. But since that black person comes from a position of having no collective power it’s not technically possible for it to be racist. It all has to be taken into context.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Wow, that's a powerful leap of logic you've got there.

Let's look at this again:

"The point being that if the black person said all white people are racist he is in effect saying white people are inferior to blacks people (so conversely black people are superior to white people). By your definition that is racism."

Yep. Wow. So how you get from someone assuming all people who look like their oppressors who keep them down with institutionalized racism based on the belief that white people are superior think the same way, to them thinking they, or black people in general, are superior is... well, simply amazing in it's psychological projection. It's like those Glenn Beck whiteboard that draw lines between random shit to make conspiracy theories.

Meanwhile, back in reality. Resentment based racial prejudice is rooted in the effects of being abused, not a feeling of superiority. Your tremendous leap of logic is akin to claiming an abused woman who now fears and resents all men does so because she thinks she is superior, rather than afraid and resentful.

Wow... Just fucking wow. It is simply amazing how desperately white people want to project their shit onto the very people they've held as "inferior" for so long.

I’m not disagreeing with you but you’re adding context to it. I completely agree that given the context of one’s life and lack of collective power it’s not possible for the black person to be racist. The statement "all white people are racist" is the dictionary version of racist. When you take into account the context that the one saying it lacks collective power I think we are in agreement that is not racist.

 

[UglyCasanova]

http://affinitymagazine.us/2017/02/...our-dictionary-definition-of-racism-is-wrong/

Article on why the dictionary definition is wrong and a misguided white construct. Basically like what I was saying earlier that context matters and racism = prejudice + power. It irks people but so be it, since they lack social power it’s impossible for a minority to be racist. Saying otherwise throws history out the window.