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Does racism require ones ethnicity to possess collective power

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UglyCasanova said:
...a position of having no collective power...
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No collective power? Tell that to Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King Jr., and the Civil Rights movement. And that's just a sample of collective power. Human interactions with one another is hardly ever at some collective value. What the hell are you doing, going on about power as if it is solely collective? There is no winner take all on the scale of human interactions. Nazis in Germany suffered a defeat and lost their "collective power". They are still racist as !@#$ and you'd have to be an idiot to claim otherwise just because they're not in power.

What I do to others, and what they do to me happens at an interpersonal level. Individuals carry their own power and can pretty much lord it over others as they see fit. Where as I'll tell people they cannot abuse or harm others based on the color of their skin, you appear to giving us a different argument. You seem to be excusing racism.
 
Spoken with true priveledge 🙄

The real definition:

e48bfd7aa885b8512ff8bba4626069bf.jpg
 
UglyCasanova said:
I’m not disagreeing with you but you’re adding context to it. I completely agree that given the context of one’s life and lack of collective power it’s not possible for the black person to be racist. The statement "all white people are racist" is the dictionary version of racist. When you take into account the context that the one saying it lacks collective power I think we are in agreement that is not racist.
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No. It does not. The assumption by the black man that white people on general hold a belief that they are superior is not a racist assumption. It assumes no superiority itself. It is racial prejudice, to be sure, but most certainly NOT racism.
 
Amused said:
No. Again, this is not complicated. Not all racial prejudice is racism. Racism requires racial prejudice to be based on a belief of inherent superiority of one's own race. Full stop. One may have racial prejudice that is NOT based on a belief in one's own racial superiority. And that would NOT be racism.

I cannot explain it any more simply than that. I even gave examples. I can only assume you are either not intelligent enough to comprehend, or you are being willfully obtuse.


rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/
noun
  1. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
    • the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
      noun: racism
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Believing the entire race of white people have the character flaw of being racist would make them inferior. That is, unless you do not believe its a character flaw.

So, yes, it is.
 
Amused said:
No. It does not. The assumption by the black man that white people on general hold a belief that they are superior is not a racist assumption. It assumes no superiority itself. It is racial prejudice, to be sure, but most certainly NOT racism.
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By that logic the assumption that a white man saying "all blacks are lazy" isn’t racist either because it doesn’t assume superiority. Are you saying it’s not implied in saying "all whites are racist" that non-whites aren’t (or all aren’t I should say)?

The saying "all (insert skin color) are (insert something negative)" implies an inferiority of that particular race at least in that particular aspect. Inferiority implies superiority.
 
realibrad said:
Believing the entire race of white people have the character flaw of being racist would make them inferior. That is, unless you do not believe its a character flaw.

So, yes, it is.
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No. It's not. Again, one may have racial prejudice without it being racism. A fear and resentment of the race that has historically used the belief that it is superior to your to keep you down is not racism. Why? Because fear and resentment are not beliefs of superiority. Full stop.

As much as you want to accuse the racially oppressed of racism, reverse racism is a fallacy. A case of projectionism.
 
But now you are adding context to qualify, something that wasn’t a part of your original definition (and you left off part two of it which certainly fits this example).
 
UglyCasanova said:
By that logic the assumption that a white man saying "all blacks are lazy" isn’t racist either because it doesn’t assume superiority. Are you saying it’s not implied in saying "all whites are racist" that non-whites aren’t (or all aren’t I should say)?

The saying "all (insert skin color) are (insert something negative)" implies an inferiority of that particular race at least in that particular aspect. Inferiority implies superiority.
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Sigh. A belief system is not an inherent trait of a race. Therefore assigning a historically white belief system to all whites while being racial prejudice is NOT racism. It assumes nothing inherent to the white race making it superior or inferior. Only believing something that may cause harm to others. And that belief can be changed, while an inherent property cannot.

Why are you guys clinging to this so desperately?

It's rather pathetic, actually. The need to accuse the race who has been historically abused and institutionally marginalized of the very thing that led to that because: Guilt maybe?
 
Amused said:
No. It does not. The assumption by the black man that white people on general hold a belief that they are superior is not a racist assumption. It assumes no superiority itself. It is racial prejudice, to be sure, but most certainly NOT racism.
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You can call it whatever word you want, there is no real moral difference between calling someone “racially prejudiced” vs simply “racist.” It won’t change the evil that is in their heart no matter what you call them anymore than calling a neo-nazi an “alt-right” will make them less of an asshole.
 
Amused said:
No. It's not. Again, one may have racial prejudice without it being racism. A fear and resentment of the race that has historically used the belief that it is superior to your to keep you down is not racism. Why? Because fear and resentment are not beliefs of superiority. Full stop.

As much as you want to accuse the racially oppressed of racism, reverse racism is a fallacy. A case of projectionism.
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Racial prejudice is the definition of racism. You have posted it many times now. How you do not get that is amazing honestly.

Look, unless you are talking about irrational fears of difference races, then you fear them because of a reason. The reasons are "group x is violent" or something to that effect. Again, that is a presumption of a universal or near universal character flaw that you think makes them dangerous.

Its super simple. If you believe a group contains a character flaw that is unique to that race, and you are not of that race, then you believe your race is superior. Its just that simple guy.

And wtf are you talking about with accusing anyone. It was based off of a hypothetical you presented. This is all theory.
 
What am I clinging to, I’m in agreement with you that it’s not racist because of the lack of collective power. What I’m saying is that it would be according to the definition though. You added context to qualify it which wasn’t part of the original definition.

But at the end of the day I think we’re both in agreement. The statement can’t be racist because of context and racism = power + prejudice. I think we both agree on that. :beer:
 
UglyCasanova said:
No it’s just one half of it. Racism is the combination of racial prejudice plus collective power.
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How about we just call them assholes instead because that’s more accurate than racist or racially prejudiced. And the people who try remarket certain kinds of assholes in order to improve their image with softer terminology are nearly just as bad.
 
Because ignoring the concept of collective power as a requirement of racism gives an inaccurate meaning and diminishes the experiences of those who are oppressed.
 
I don’t. To be honest I don’t believe anything I’ve posted in this thread. 😀


I wanted to have the conversation about it because I’ve seen the racism = prejudice + power definition posted on here and elsewhere, but if I wasn’t "for" it the only responses I’d get back would be about how concerned I was or name calling. So I’m pleasantly surprised with the conversation we’ve had, even if I was arguing from a different position from my own. Good conversations can be had on here after all it seems
 
UglyCasanova said:
I don’t. To be honest I don’t believe anything I’ve posted in this thread. 😀


I wanted to have the conversation about it because I’ve seen the racism = prejudice + power definition posted on here and elsewhere, but if I wasn’t "for" it the only responses I’d get back would be about how concerned I was or name calling. So I’m pleasantly surprised with the conversation we’ve had, even if I was arguing from a different position from my own. Good conversations can be had on here after all it seems
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So you were playing devil's advocate?
 
I guess you can say that, I just wanted to have the conversation and there was no way to have it otherwise. No I dont believe that there is a requirement for power in the definition of racism. I think trying to add that in is just an out for a "do as I say, not as I do" mentality. There is plenty of racism coming from all ethnic groups and very open racism towards whites is tolerated and encouraged, I disagree with the arguement that it’s not "true racism" because they lack power. That is simply making excuses for vile behavior
 
realibrad said:
Racial prejudice is the definition of racism. You have posted it many times now. How you do not get that is amazing honestly.

Look, unless you are talking about irrational fears of difference races, then you fear them because of a reason. The reasons are "group x is violent" or something to that effect. Again, that is a presumption of a universal or near universal character flaw that you think makes them dangerous.

Its super simple. If you believe a group contains a character flaw that is unique to that race, and you are not of that race, then you believe your race is superior. Its just that simple guy.

And wtf are you talking about with accusing anyone. It was based off of a hypothetical you presented. This is all theory.
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The definition has been posted many times.

Racism is defined as, read this slowly, a COMBINATION OF RACIAL PREDJUDICE AND A BELIEF IF RACIAL SUPERIORITY.

You get that? Without a belief in superiority, racial prejudice is not racism.
 
Last edited:
The definition you posted (although for some reason you keep leaving the second part off)

rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/
noun
  1. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
    • the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
      noun: racism
  2. the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
 
Amused said:
The definition has been posted many times.

Racism is defined as, read this slowly, a COMBINATION OF RACIAL PREDJUDICE AND A BELIEF IF RACIAL SUPERIORITY.

You get that? Without a belief is superiority, racial prejudice is not racism.
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There is your problem. It can be a combination or a single one. I did not realize your understanding of the definition was the issue.

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
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Commas do not mean and only in this context. You can see this because its followed with or. You can have all three, two of the three, or just one. So, here is how it works.

You have Prejudice at the top. Racism is a subgroup of prejudice because its prejudice based on race. You can have other types of prejudice such as sexism. Sexism is prejudice based on sex.

Here, look over this summary for this paper.

http://communication.oxfordre.com/v...0228613.001.0001/acrefore-9780190228613-e-164
It then explores the levels at which prejudice might be manifest, finally arriving at a specific focus of prejudice—racism; however, what applies to racism may also apply to other intolerances such as sexism, heterosexism, classism, or ageism.
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Now, lets look at this definition, specifically #3.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2: a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles
: a political or social system founded on racism

3: racial prejudice or discrimination
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Now, lets look at the Oxford definition that you used, and, lets look at the synonyms.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/racism
racial discrimination, racialism, racial bigotry, racial prejudice, xenophobia, chauvinism, bigotry, bias, intolerance
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Well hot damn, there it is again. Its okay to admit you are wrong. You don't seem like the type, but man, its liberating to admit you were wrong and shift your position to the corrected.

So, if a Black guy that has had to deal with racism starts to believe all Whites have a character flaw that they are all racists, he too then becomes racist. Its one of the many reasons racism is so shitty. Its a trap that even those people that are the primary victims may even fall into.
 
When you have to go to extensive lengths to explain away why the most accepted definitions of racism define it as racial prejudice based on a belief in inherent differences and superiority, you're reaching.

Desperately.

The very definition of ...ist and ...ism is the belief that something is better or preferable than the other.

rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/
noun
  1. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
This is the most widely accepted definition of racism. Why? Because ism denotes a belief of preference or superiority.

No such belief exists when the root cause of prejudice is fear and resentment.
 
Amused said:
When you have to go to extensive lengths to explain away why the most accepted definitions of racism define it as racial prejudice based on a belief in inherent differences and superiority, you're reaching.

Desperately.

The very definition of ...ist and ...ism is the belief that something is better or preferable than the other.

rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/
noun
  1. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
This is the most widely accepted definition of racism. Why? Because ism denotes a belief of preference or superiority.

No such belief exists when the root cause of prejudice is fear and resentment.
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Hahah what are you doing? We already went over this.

The prejudice that is based on race stems from the underlying belief that all Whites are racist. Being racist is a character flaw, thus, the person would believe that all white people contain a flaw that his race does not contain.

This is amazingly simple.
 
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