Did Iran shoot down the airliner?

[soundforbjt]

Human beings aren't hornets or another animal that responds to threats based on instinct because that is all animals are capable of doing, that is why the devil, the dress or in this case Trump made me do it doesn't fly, no pun intended,

If you want to deploy big boy weapons like ballistic missiles and anti aircraft batteries than you need to take big boy responsibility if there is a failure due to poor training and strategic planning, not lash out like some 6 year old crying" he made me do it" .

In a perfect world, yes. People are far from perfect, rational thinking creatures. For example, if you ever find yourself lost out in the wild the best course of action is to stay exactly where you are and wait for help. Out of 800 cases examined of people in that situation, only two did that, the rest moved and tried to find their way out. In stressful situations instinct wins over rational thinking.

 

[cytg111]

I guess Iran have deployed a number of SAMs around what could be conceived to be of the "52 targets" Trump rambled about! - and then the russian manuel adressed TWO buttons, one says "shoot everything", the other says "only shoot americans" .. but it was in russian so they flipped a coin.

But maybe the international community begins to have a case vs the Vlad here, this is the second time a haywire russian shootie thinge downs random civilians from the sky.

Called it.

 

[pmv]

Human beings aren't hornets or another animal that responds to threats based on instinct because that is all animals are capable of doing, that is why the devil, the dress or in this case Trump made me do it doesn't fly, no pun intended,

If you want to deploy big boy weapons like ballistic missiles and anti aircraft batteries than you need to take big boy responsibility if there is a failure due to poor training and strategic planning, not lash out like some 6 year old crying" he made me do it" .

Yeah. Doesn't change the fact that the US has the ability to know what the liikely Iranian response was, and also to be aware of the level of competency of their military. So it was a predictable outcome. Who said anything about Iran saying 'he made me do it?' - blatant straw man. The rest of us are quite capable of seeing that Trump has some degree of responsibility for this.

 

[UNCjigga]

I may be a TDS suffering fucktard, but even I wouldn’t point the finger at Trump. This is a tragic case of sheer incompetence on the Iranian regime’s part. Somehow Iran put strategic military facilities in the takeoff flight path of a major airport, set up SAM batteries along said flight path, and couldn’t coordinate with ATC on target identification? At the very least, order a ground stop until you sound the all clear.

 

[HomerJS]

I may be a TDS suffering fucktard, but even I wouldn’t point the finger at Trump. This is a tragic case of sheer incompetence on the Iranian regime’s part. Somehow Iran put strategic military facilities in the takeoff flight path of a major airport, set up SAM batteries along said flight path, and couldn’t coordinate with ATC on target identification? At the very least, order a ground stop until you sound the all clear.

So Trump has ZERO culpability?

 

[Sunburn74]

I may be a TDS suffering fucktard, but even I wouldn’t point the finger at Trump. This is a tragic case of sheer incompetence on the Iranian regime’s part. Somehow Iran put strategic military facilities in the takeoff flight path of a major airport, set up SAM batteries along said flight path, and couldn’t coordinate with ATC on target identification? At the very least, order a ground stop until you sound the all clear.

I think it's at least 50/50 here. There is zero chance those people would be dead if the general was still alive.

 

[HurleyBird]

So Trump has ZERO culpability?

This shouldn't even be a question. The concept of blaming whatever entity contributed to the conditions that led you to make a mistake is puerile. It's something well adjusted adults just don't do.

 

[Zorba]

Seemed inevitable as the pressure mounted.

Now will the US do something stupid and prod this or let the Iranians be angry at the regime for a while?

Really, if our government wasn't ran by morons, this would probably be a good opportunity to reengage diplomatically.

Too bad that won't happen.

 

[HomerJS]

This shouldn't even be a question. The concept of blaming whatever entity contributed to the conditions that led you to make a mistake is puerile. It's something well adjusted adults just don't do.

So using that logic the ONLY person responsible is the low level soldier who pushed the button launching the missile.

That makes sense


BTW - If we accept your premise propaganda wouldn't be so effective.

 

[HomerJS]

I think it's at least 50/50 here. There is zero chance those people would be dead if the general was still alive.

That is correct. I agree 50-50.
Trump 50%
Iranian military
Airline (they should have not allowed flights knowing the situation)

I put the low level soldier who fired last on the list responsible.

 

[cytg111]

So Trump has ZERO culpability?

Its like hockey, he gets a penalty for instigating.

 

[cytg111]

That is correct. I agree 50-50.
Trump 50%
Iranian military
Airline (they should have not allowed flights knowing the situation)

I put the low level soldier who fired last on the list responsible.

The airline have to trust the gov. If they say its good to go ... I mean why are you even operating in the area to begin with if you cant trust that... I say the Iranian military have some SOP's to review on the matter ... Also is this not what happens when your army is not battle tested .. a bunch of noobs panicking running around and into each other when it gets hot.

 

[Corn]

It is amazing to read all of these posts from the blame America first crowd. You imbeciles are despicable. Yes we get it, it was very upsetting to you that Suleimani paid for his murderous acts of terrorism. If nothing else, the actions of the Iranian government and their attempt to cover up their hand in this tragedy only further cements the proof of their lack of humanity, yet our resident lefties proclaim Trump to be the villan here.

The right has it's fair share of deplorables, but you traitors balance the scales. Yeah, fuck you.

 

[Victorian Gray]

It is amazing to read all of these posts from the blame America first crowd. You imbeciles are despicable. Yes we get it, it was very upsetting to you that Suleimani paid for his murderous acts of terrorism. If nothing else, the actions of the Iranian government and their attempt to cover up their hand in this tragedy only further cements the proof of their lack of humanity, yet our resident lefties proclaim Trump to be the villan here.

The right has it's fair share of deplorables, but you traitors balance the scales. Yeah, fuck you.

Good boy. Push those talking points. Push 'em hard.

 

[TheVrolok]

It is amazing to read all of these posts from the blame America first crowd. You imbeciles are despicable. Yes we get it, it was very upsetting to you that Suleimani paid for his murderous acts of terrorism. If nothing else, the actions of the Iranian government and their attempt to cover up their hand in this tragedy only further cements the proof of their lack of humanity, yet our resident lefties proclaim Trump to be the villan here.

The right has it's fair share of deplorables, but you traitors balance the scales. Yeah, fuck you.

Remember when the US shot down an Iranian commercial airliner because it was defending itself in international waters? Oops. Might want to tread carefully on the moral high ground of accidental downings.

No one significant on the left (and no one that I've seen on this forum) is upset Suleimani is dead, no one. That's a strawman. You're free to link any proof that anyone significant feels differently. What people ARE upset about is the way in which he was killed, was is fairly troubling for reasons which have been innumerated.

The right has it's fair share of intellectually dishonest folk (all of it?). So yeah, fuck you, I guess?

 

[Paratus]

This shouldn't even be a question. The concept of blaming whatever entity contributed to the conditions that led you to make a mistake is puerile. It's something well adjusted adults just don't do.

See this is a very naive position on your part. It also suggests you’ve never had experience with any operations organization or ones that deals with catastrophic human risks

These types of organizations perform risk analysis especially when live are on the line.

A competent organization would have taken this risk into account, the risk that Iranian retaliation may accidentally or purposefully hit civilians.

A competent organization accepts culpability when a risk they didn’t foresee or failed to predict correctly occurs and kills someone.

Claiming “blaming whatever entity contributed to the conditions that led you to make a mistake is puerile.” is actually something immature teens do. Like when they get into a street race and the other guy loses control and kills someone and don’t want to be blamed for the other guy.

 

[Paratus]

It is amazing to read all of these posts from the blame America first crowd. You imbeciles are despicable. Yes we get it, it was very upsetting to you that Suleimani paid for his murderous acts of terrorism. If nothing else, the actions of the Iranian government and their attempt to cover up their hand in this tragedy only further cements the proof of their lack of humanity, yet our resident lefties proclaim Trump to be the villan here.

The right has it's fair share of deplorables, but you traitors balance the scales. Yeah, fuck you.

Another case of a conservative blindly rewarding incompetence.

• Bad Iranian is killed but the US

At what cost

• Dead Iraqis
• Ukraine 737 shdown 100+ dead
• Iraq wants us gone
• Pushes Iran to definitely get the bomb.
• Alienates is from our allies

Maybe you should consider taking responsibility for your votes and holding your politicians culpable when they shit the bed?

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

It is amazing to read all of these posts

Shouldn't your post be in orange? Fake tan orange?


Or maybe in Sharpie?

 

[HurleyBird]

Claiming “blaming whatever entity contributed to the conditions that led you to make a mistake is puerile.” is actually something immature teens do. Like when they get into a street race and the other guy loses control and kills someone and don’t want to be blamed for the other guy.

You think that's a good example, but I don't. If I decide to participate in a street race, and I run over a guy and kill him, that's my fault -- my responsibility. The buck stops at me. Which isn't to say that the other participants are totally innocent. They're guilty of reckless driving and being a public danger, but they aren't guilty for my actions. Nor is The Fast and the Furious guilty share any of my guilt for being an influence, despite the fact that said franchise certainly must have led numerous individuals into street racing and some of those must have been involved in fatal collisions.

Keep in mind that the above is "in and of itself." There are a bunch of scenarios that could create an exception. If I were to pressure a friend into street racing and he killed a guy, I would certainly bear a great amount of moral responsibility. That said, there are so many degrees of separation between executing Soleimani and Iran shooting down their own people that this certainly isn't the case here. It comes off as a form of absurd post-hoc reasoning which could only be applied to someone you hate as much as you hate Trump.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

^^ And yet the getaway driver is routinely charged with felony murder even though they never set foot in the bank where the teller was killed.

The Don put this mess in motion.

 

[IronWing]

You think that's a good example, but I don't. If I decide to participate in a street race, and I run over a guy and kill him, that's my fault -- my responsibility. The buck stops at me. Which isn't to say that the other participants are totally innocent. They're guilty of reckless driving and being a public danger, but they aren't guilty for my actions. Nor does The Fast and the Furious guilty share any of my guilt for being an influence, despite the fact that said franchise certainly must have led numerous individuals into street racing and some of those must have been involved in fatal collisions.

A more fitting analogy would be if I called you up and told you I was on my way over to murder you and your family right there in your home tonight. You knew I was serious because I had just murdered your uncle. So there you were by the door with your gun waiting in the dark for me to arrive when your neighbor came over to return a book and you shot him dead. Are you guilty of killing your neighbor? Of course. Do I have any culpability for threatening you?

 

[HurleyBird]

And yet the getaway driver is routinely charged with felony murder even though they never set foot in the bank where the teller was killed.

The "Felony Murder" doctrine is incredibly morally questionable to be honest. Here in Canada we think it's fundamentally unjust, and have deemed it to be unconstitutional. But if you want to throw your hat in with the tough-on-crime neocons, go right ahead.

 

[HurleyBird]

A more fitting analogy...Do I have any culpability for threatening you?

That is a significantly more fitting analogy, so good job with that. You obviously have culpability for threatening my life since that in itself is illegal. Do you have culpability for me blowing the head off of my neighbour? Morally at least, probably some. But like the street racing example the devil is in the details. Do you have an understanding of whether I'm armed or unarmed? And so on.

But there are issues with mapping your example onto Trump-Iran. Most are of the devil-in-the-details variety, but one is deal breaking: you're missing a step.

It's not one entity threatening another, it's one entity threatening another if they take a specific action against it. This is fundamentally different. Say you had given me a warning that if I harrassed your wife that you would kill me, after which I went and did it anyway, and then assumed that the attack was coming, and ultimately pulled the trigger on my neighbour by mistake.

No, under that scenario I would not hold you morally culpable in the slightest. It's my gross negligence, and the guilt is mine alone.

Though it is fun watching you guys invoking disproportionately conservative views on justice (felony murder doctrine) to try and pin the blame on Trump.

 

[kage69]

It is amazing to read all of these posts from the blame America first crowd. You imbeciles are despicable. Yes we get it, it was very upsetting to you that Suleimani paid for his murderous acts of terrorism. If nothing else, the actions of the Iranian government and their attempt to cover up their hand in this tragedy only further cements the proof of their lack of humanity, yet our resident lefties proclaim Trump to be the villan here.

The right has it's fair share of deplorables, but you traitors balance the scales. Yeah, fuck you.

Yeah. Damn those traitorous Dems always giving Putin handies and using our country's foreign policy for personal political gain.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

It should be noted that at least a few criminal defendants have cited The Don's mouth bile spews as factors in their violent acts, though I don't know if it had any affect on judgements or if any of the cases have been settled.