Did Iran shoot down the airliner?

[pmv]

That is a significantly more fitting analogy, so good job with that. You obviously have culpability for threatening my life since that in itself is illegal. Do you have culpability for me blowing the head off of my neighbour? Morally at least, probably some. But like the street racing example the devil is in the details. Do you have an understanding of whether I'm armed or unarmed? And so on.

But there are issues with mapping your example onto Trump-Iran. Most are of the devil-in-the-details variety, but one is deal breaking: you're missing a step.

It's not one entity threatening another, it's one entity threatening another if they take a specific action against it. This is fundamentally different. Say you had given me a warning that if I harrassed your wife that you would kill me, after which I went and did it anyway, and then assumed that the attack was coming, and ultimately pulled the trigger on my neighbour by mistake.

No, under that scenario I would not hold you morally culpable in the slightest. It's my gross negligence, and the guilt is mine alone.

Though it is fun watching you guys invoking disproportionately conservative views on justice (felony murder doctrine) to try and pin the blame on Trump.

But we aren't talking about a justice system or a court verdict. We are talking about morality and politics. There is no over-arching state and legal system above all this, so it's nonsense to talk about 'felony murder doctrine'.

But if you want to make an analogy with crime - if someone kicks off a gang-war by killing a leading rival mobster, especially in a context where the police and legal system is weak or effectively non-existent, and subsequently innocent non-gang-members get caught in the resulting cross-fire and killed, then, yes, there is a collective responsibility by all the gangsters involved.

Even if one gang could be argued to be less vicious than the other, even if one gang could arugably be described rather as vigilantes, the affected public can ask 'what the heck did you do that for?' and consider them to have some share of culpability for the resulting carnage.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Too much thinkin' involved here. Where The Don is involved, The Don is to blame.

 

[K1052]

Really, if our government wasn't ran by morons, this would probably be a good opportunity to reengage diplomatically.

Too bad that won't happen.

Trump Co is spewing a lot of rhetoric about how they stand with the Iranian people. Those same people he banned from visiting the US because they're muslim.

 

[Dari]

I may be a TDS suffering fucktard, but even I wouldn’t point the finger at Trump. This is a tragic case of sheer incompetence on the Iranian regime’s part. Somehow Iran put strategic military facilities in the takeoff flight path of a major airport, set up SAM batteries along said flight path, and couldn’t coordinate with ATC on target identification? At the very least, order a ground stop until you sound the all clear.

QFT. Also, in spite of what many here are claiming, Trump didn't "start" anything. He simply killed someone who had been fighting and killing Americans (and Israelis) for DECADES. It was his time. He thought he could kill another American and it would be business as usual. When Trump responded by going after the militia that fired the rockets they (Soleimani and Iran) thought the US's response was severe and went after the US Embassy. That was a huge no-no (that no Iranian while ever repeat will Trump is in the White House) and they paid a huge price. Now Iran knows Trump's redline (harming Americans and attacking our embassy). Personally, I don't know why they feel the need to have all these militias. If they want to survive into the future they need to go the Chinese route and focus on economics instead of ideology. Make peace with the US and your neighbors.

 

[IronWing]

Personally, I don't know why they feel the need to have all these militias.

The Iraqis need the militias to hold the Saud sponsored ISIS nutjobs at bay. These militias you disparage are the folks that drove back ISIS. Trump, on the other hand, plays kissy face with the Sauds while the Sauds spread terrorism around the world.

 

[Dari]

You think that's a good example, but I don't. If I decide to participate in a street race, and I run over a guy and kill him, that's my fault -- my responsibility. The buck stops at me. Which isn't to say that the other participants are totally innocent. They're guilty of reckless driving and being a public danger, but they aren't guilty for my actions. Nor is The Fast and the Furious guilty share any of my guilt for being an influence, despite the fact that said franchise certainly must have led numerous individuals into street racing and some of those must have been involved in fatal collisions.

Keep in mind that the above is "in and of itself." There are a bunch of scenarios that could create an exception. If I were to pressure a friend into street racing and he killed a guy, I would certainly bear a great amount of moral responsibility. That said, there are so many degrees of separation between executing Soleimani and Iran shooting down their own people that this certainly isn't the case here. It comes off as a form of absurd post-hoc reasoning which could only be applied to someone you hate as much as you hate Trump.

You're talking to liberals here. Personal responsibility is foreign to them. So is dealing with things in a measured way. When Obama was elected President, many conservatives were unhappy but they took a wait and see attitude. When Trump was elected President, many liberals took to the streets and haven't stopped since. Their blood brothers in the media then concocted all these theories about how the President stole the election instead of blaming their own side's deficiencies. Hell, they were talking impeachment before Trump took the oath. For them, it's always protesting like rabid monkeys; intolerant of opposing opinion and it's always somebody's else's fault. For whatever reason, Trump makes them lose their collective mind. It's really a sight to behold. I think it's terminal.

 

[K1052]

The Iraqis need the militias to hold the Saud sponsored ISIS nutjobs at bay. These militias you disparage are the folks that drove back ISIS. Trump, on the other hand, plays kissy face with the Sauds while the Sauds spread terrorism around the world.

The Saudis pay or at least that's the case Trump is explicitly making at this point. They can kill Americans as long as they cut us a check.

 

[Dari]

The Iraqis need the militias to hold the Saud sponsored ISIS nutjobs at bay. These militias you disparage are the folks that drove back ISIS. Trump, on the other hand, plays kissy face with the Sauds while the Sauds spread terrorism around the world.

It was the US military that did the job, no tthe militias. And these militias are beholden to Iran, not Iraq, even though Iraq claims them as part of its security apparatus. Unless Iraq wants to become a vassal of Iran, they need to disband these militias ASAP.

 

[IronWing]

You're talking to liberals here. Personal responsibility is foreign to them. So is dealing with things in a measured way. When Obama was elected President, many conservatives were unhappy but they took a wait and see attitude. When Trump was elected President, many liberals took to the streets and haven't stopped sense. Their blood brothers then contacted all these theories about how the President stole the election instead of blaming their own side's deficiencies. Hell, they were talking impeachment before Trump took the oath. For them, it's always protesting like rabid monkeys; intolerant of opposing opinion and it's always somebody's else's fault. For whatever reason, Trump makes them lose their collective mind. It's really a sight to behold. I think it's terminal.

You're silly.

 

[Dari]

Iran needs to return to the negotiating table. The time is right. Coming to us on bended knees is better than when in an ICU. What good is having nuclear weapons anyway? There's a reason why Israel won't admit to having it. That's because it'll justify all the nutters in the neighborhood for having one as well. Once Iran gets it, the Saudis will as well and we all know they WILL use theirs. I have no doubt. These people are more puritanical and feel they're superior to everyone (even worse than the Japanese). And they wouldn't need us anymore to protect them, which means they will be a cvnt's hair away from pulling the trigger. Saudi Arabia is the last country on Earth that should have nukes and only Iran would provide a path to them having one.
So why would Iran want that? Aren't they supposed to be an intelligent people? Think about the consequences of your actions.

 

[kage69]

You're talking to liberals here. Personal responsibility is foreign to them. So is dealing with things in a measured way. When Obama was elected President, many conservatives were unhappy but they took a wait and see attitude. When Trump was elected President, many liberals took to the streets and haven't stopped sense. Their blood brothers then contacted all these theories about how the President stole the election instead of blaming their own side's deficiencies. Hell, they were talking impeachment before Trump took the oath. For them, it's always protesting like rabid monkeys; intolerant of opposing opinion and it's always somebody's else's fault. For whatever reason, Trump makes them lose their collective mind. It's really a sight to behold. I think it's terminal.

It's just adorable how you guys think you can speak about personal responsibility, always a good laugh. Showing everyone that you've learned jack shit since 2003 does tend to tamper that amusement though, what with cost in American life and treasure being what it is.

The Obama butthurt though, given Moscow Mitch 2008-2016, hahaha Stay derpy Dari

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

You're silly.

Most Orangies are.

 

[Vic]

Stop blaming Trump for everything that happens. Iran decided to blindly launch an AA missile and many people paid the price for their incompetence. I know that #Progressheviks have a hard time not supporting Iran, Russia, China, and North Korea.

Why don't you address these facts?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1178986524630802432

Trump: Kim Jong Un and I 'fell in love'

President Trump said he and North Korean leader Kim Jong Un "fell in love."

thehill.com

 

[Vic]

You're talking to liberals here. Personal responsibility is foreign to them. So is dealing with things in a measured way. When Obama was elected President, many conservatives were unhappy but they took a wait and see attitude. When Trump was elected President, many liberals took to the streets and haven't stopped since. Their blood brothers in the media then concocted all these theories about how the President stole the election instead of blaming their own side's deficiencies. Hell, they were talking impeachment before Trump took the oath. For them, it's always protesting like rabid monkeys; intolerant of opposing opinion and it's always somebody's else's fault. For whatever reason, Trump makes them lose their collective mind. It's really a sight to behold. I think it's terminal.

This is quite the self-serving fantasy reality you've created for yourself here.

 

[Vic]

You're silly.

Given that all the Tea Party and other Republican protests against Obama during his admin are well-documented, the only conclusions one can logically draw from that post are either 1) he forgot about those because they weren't included in his talking points, or 2) he's trying to suppress free speech he's intolerant of by mischaracterizing it as an attack on his own free speech.

 

[kage69]

Nice to see. Tehran really screwed the pooch shooting that airliner down. It's not just students who are pissed.

https://imgur.com/pe2dn2e

 

[Vic]

Just to add, personal responsibility also means owning up to it after you've been caught lying.

 

[Paratus]

You think that's a good example, but I don't. If I decide to participate in a street race, and I run over a guy and kill him, that's my fault -- my responsibility. The buck stops at me. Which isn't to say that the other participants are totally innocent. They're guilty of reckless driving and being a public danger, but they aren't guilty for my actions. Nor is The Fast and the Furious guilty share any of my guilt for being an influence, despite the fact that said franchise certainly must have led numerous individuals into street racing and some of those must have been involved in fatal collisions.

Keep in mind that the above is "in and of itself." There are a bunch of scenarios that could create an exception. If I were to pressure a friend into street racing and he killed a guy, I would certainly bear a great amount of moral responsibility. That said, there are so many degrees of separation between executing Soleimani and Iran shooting down their own people that this certainly isn't the case here. It comes off as a form of absurd post-hoc reasoning which could only be applied to someone you hate as much as you hate Trump.

Being strictly responsible for yourself is the bare minimum for being an adult. I expect better of my leaders.

In my own work I’ve seen leaders/managers hold themselves accountable for failures of the newest operators 4 levels below them. Even when the error was entirely the operators fault. I expect at least that level of dedication from the politicians I voted for.

I understand why you don’t. Conservatives everywhere have made Trump the symbol of their ideology. Any criticism of Trump is felt to be an attack on your ideology and yourself. That’s why all failures of his are ignored or even lauded. It’s why you choose to hold others to higher standards and hold yours to basically no standards.

All you have to do is take a look at the silence of conservatives in the “What would it take for you to turn away from Trump thread”.

 

[pmv]

QFT. Also, in spite of what many here are claiming, Trump didn't "start" anything. He simply killed someone who had been fighting and killing Americans (and Israelis) for DECADES. It was his time. He thought he could kill another American and it would be business as usual. When Trump responded by going after the militia that fired the rockets they (Soleimani and Iran) thought the US's response was severe and went after the US Embassy. That was a huge no-no (that no Iranian while ever repeat will Trump is in the White House) and they paid a huge price. Now Iran knows Trump's redline (harming Americans and attacking our embassy). Personally, I don't know why they feel the need to have all these militias. If they want to survive into the future they need to go the Chinese route and focus on economics instead of ideology. Make peace with the US and your neighbors.

Well, maybe they (assuming you mean Iraq) have militias because the country is very divided (by religion and ethnicity and politics), and was a colonial plaything for good part of a century, and has recently been invaded and occupied by a foreign power. Perhaps it's that?

I seem to remember the US had militias when a foreign power was trying to control it. Though, looking how that turned out, I guess you have a point.

 

[HurleyBird]

I expect at least that level of dedication from the politicians I voted for.

Good luck with that. I'd like that too, but the sad truth is that the people who should be in positions of power are few, and always facing an uphill battle against people who treat politics as a blood sport.

But of course, taking responsibility for your subordinate's mistakes is a far cry from taking responsibility for an adversary's after n degrees of separation. The former is a sign of integrity, the later would be a sign of a being doormat, if you could even find someone who fit the bill (and I'm doubtful a person so cucked even exists).

I understand why you don’t. Conservatives everywhere have made Trump the symbol of their ideology. Any criticism of Trump is felt to be an attack on your ideology and yourself. That’s why all failures of his are ignored or even lauded. It’s why you choose to hold others to higher standards and hold yours to basically no standards.

I'm hardly a Trump supporter. I'm ardently anti-war, and I don't think Trump was justified in killing Soleimani.

You could conceivably call me a conservative. A number of my positions line up with the left (against the war on drugs, anti-patent, (pragmatically) pro-choice, pro-universal healthcare, and of course anti-felony murder doctrine) but if you averaged everything together you'd likely land a bit right-of-centre. I'm more of what you could call a "realistic libertarian" which is to say that in contrast to most libertarians who will argue for a libertarian solution to anything and everything, I still think you need to look at each case on an individual basis because sometimes government is the answer.

Now, I would understand you lumping responsibility on Trump if he had threatened Iran and they had made a mistake. I still wouldn't agree with you, but I would at least understand the position. Given that Trump had warned of retaliation if Iran took specific hostile action though, at which point the ball was firmly in Iran's court, it's hard to see this as anything other than TDS leading you to adopt an absurd position.

 

[Sunburn74]

You're talking to liberals here. Personal responsibility is foreign to them. So is dealing with things in a measured way. When Obama was elected President, many conservatives were unhappy but they took a wait and see attitude. When Trump was elected President, many liberals took to the streets and haven't stopped since. Their blood brothers in the media then concocted all these theories about how the President stole the election instead of blaming their own side's deficiencies. Hell, they were talking impeachment before Trump took the oath. For them, it's always protesting like rabid monkeys; intolerant of opposing opinion and it's always somebody's else's fault. For whatever reason, Trump makes them lose their collective mind. It's really a sight to behold. I think it's terminal.

Wait and see approach? Really?! That's how you think the right approached Obama? Let's wait and see if he warms our hearts and wins us over?

On the flip side, people keep giving Trump chance after chance and he continues to fail. He can't even deliver slam dunk stuff like a unifying message at the state of the union or denouncing nazis. It's gotten to the point where he'd literally have to cure all cancer at this point to break even with all the absolutely immoral and ridiculous stuff he has done.

 

[Vic]

I'm having trouble seeing the derangement in holding leaders accountable for the unintended consequences of their decisions. While I hold Iran entirely responsible for downing the plane, it also seems reasonable IMO to fault the President for not knowing (or not caring) that escalating tensions in the ME was certain to result in civilian casualties. Perhaps the problem lies in the false belief that those 2 positions must be mutually exclusive?

 

[skyking]

That's too complex, Vic.

 

[brandonbull]

I'm having trouble seeing the derangement in holding leaders accountable for the unintended consequences of their decisions. While I hold Iran entirely responsible for downing the plane, it also seems reasonable IMO to fault the President for not knowing (or not caring) that escalating tensions in the ME was certain to result in civilian casualties. Perhaps the problem lies in the false belief that those 2 positions must be mutually exclusive?

I guess the Democrats will add "Making Iran shoot down a commercial jets full of Iranian citizens" to the Articles of Impeachment. What a joke. Why won't the Dems come out and admit that they support Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea more than the United States?

 

[brandonbull]

Said no one, ever.

Strawman much?


If you poke a hornets' nest and get stung, it just might be your own fault.

Looks like Iran got several stings.