Constitution existed to protect US's interest, not foreign terrorist who are hell bend on killing our us soldier oversea.
You are the terrorist hell bent on killing our soldiers overseas. I hope you are captured and put away for years and years. You are not an American and you have no idea how our government works and certainly do not deserve the protection of our laws. The smell of fascist pig wafts off you right through the internet.
Again, this is typical for the lefties of this forum. They'd rather see terrorists treated well, and Americans who disagree with them treated as terrorists. They wish death and harm upon people who disagree with them. ALL people born in this country deserve the protection of our constitution, not just people YOU agree with it.
This doesn't even shock me anymore. Moonbeam is the typical lefty in this forum. I fully expect calls for the outright assassination of Americans soon by people like Moonie.
These threads are ridiculous. (Obama is now blamed for Congress' actions? Separation of powers anyone?)
All I ask is that people decide what they want to complain about. Half the threads are filled with people shrieking about how Obama is changing everything and leading us down the path to communist dictatorship, and the other half are filled with people shrieking about "HE HASN'T CHANGED ANYTHING". I realize that most of the people attacking him are simply hacks who would attack him no matter what he did, but it would be nice if you would apply some internal consistency to the process.
All I ask is that people decide what they want to complain about. Half the threads are filled with people shrieking about how Obama is changing everything and leading us down the path to communist dictatorship, and the other half are filled with people shrieking about "HE HASN'T CHANGED ANYTHING". I realize that most of the people attacking him are simply hacks who would attack him no matter what he did, but it would be nice if you would apply some internal consistency to the process.
All people born in this country? How about American born terrorists? And do other people in the world deserve the justice of American law? I of course know that what I said was wrong and totally inconsistent, so can you flex your mind a bit and see if you can fathom why I might have made such a ridiculous comment?
The Dems are just coming to the realization the Repubs already had: The only reason Obama campaigned on, and is pushing for the closing of GITMO is the negative image it created from the torture that took place there. The thinking is closing Gitmo would improve our international image. In reality, today the place is a state of the art prison we spent millions to improve, and closing it wont correct our tarnished image created by past actions.
Beside all that, what is one good reason to close the place and move them onto our soil, into our prisons? What will that change, other than where they are? The detainees remaining at Gitmo are said to be the real deal, full-fledged leaders and organizers of terrorist operations.
The real solution seems to be kicking the trial/tribunal process in the butt and getting these guys prosecuted.
Beside all that, what is one good reason to close the place and move them onto our soil, into our prisons? What will that change, other than where they are? The detainees remaining at Gitmo are said to be the real deal, full-fledged leaders and organizers of terrorist operations.
The real solution seems to be kicking the trial/tribunal process in the butt and getting these guys prosecuted.
I heard you are a traitor and a terrorist and GITMO is the place for you. I'm looking forward to your trial in 20 years.
umbrella39
Lifer
- Jun 11, 2004
- 13,816
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Nope, you didn't miss anything. Just the usual suspects tripping over themselves trying to be the first to look stupid in another thread. Next...
umbrella39
Lifer
- Jun 11, 2004
- 13,816
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nobodyknows
Diamond Member
- Sep 28, 2008
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Originally posted by: jbourne77
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Don't feed the troll! Have we taught you nothing!
Yes, you taught us how to ignore reality when you have been owned by Moonbeam.
This coming from a guy who reacts and THEN asks for clarification? You're doing it wrong.
Moonbeam needs to construct a coherent thought before another party can be owned by it.
Silly rabbit.
You're in denial, not that I'm surprised. Just letting you know.
More flame, no substance. This is starting to become a pattern for you. Tell ya what... if you ever want to discuss something rationally like a grown adult, let me know. Otherwise, enjoy the one-way conversation.
Some people are really bent on derailing this thread. Hmm.
I thought Moonbeam's comments on making waves were simple enough for you to understand, but I guess I was wrong. Maybe you're not as "adult" as you think you are??? At least that's the way it seems from here.
If you can't prove it then they aren't guilty. Not exactly a difficult concept, but I can see the rightwing voters having problems with the logic. No, being brown is not sufficient evidence of wrongdoing.
But GITMO is closing, so I'll be at Pelican Bay for 20 years instead.
Or did you assume closing GITMO will also change anything about why or how long they are held, or how they are getting a trial? Sorry, but it doesn't.
The only thing going on here is closing a place because of the symbol and bad image it represents for us. In other words, Europe hates us because of GITMO so we need to close it.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
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In the for what its worth department, Colin Powell on today's Face the nation somewhat addressed the question and also noted that GWB also tried and failed to close Gitmo.
The dual problem and advantage of Gitmo is that its legally unique in the world. Yes, the USA could have farmed the question out to other morally bankrupt nations in the free world, but what guarantee would there be that they could take the international condemnation. Nor does the United Statesd have to worry that Raul or Fidel Castro will suddenly muster the military strength to free the prisoners. Leaving those detained in a kind of legal limbo, as US constitutional law somehow does not yet apply to Gitmo. But therein lies the rub, as soon as those prisoners are transferred to US soil, it get far harder to maintain those prisoners do not have some constitutional rights.
And the Powell take on Face the Nation was simply, until these prisoners questions of legal rights, indefinite detention, and the legality of military tribunals are resolved in some sort of comprehensive plan by Obama that the congress can also accept, congress is going to prefer to leave them in Gitmo so the can can be kicked further down the road. A vague plan not spelled out in detail will not pass congressional muster.
And without that comprehensive plan that neither GWB or Obama came up with, congress will not authorize the funds comments Colin.
Maybe others saw the same Face the Nation today, I will leave it to only those folks to contest if I am fairly accurate or not, in terms of what Powell actually said.
The dual problem and advantage of Gitmo is that its legally unique in the world. Yes, the USA could have farmed the question out to other morally bankrupt nations in the free world, but what guarantee would there be that they could take the international condemnation. Nor does the United Statesd have to worry that Raul or Fidel Castro will suddenly muster the military strength to free the prisoners. Leaving those detained in a kind of legal limbo, as US constitutional law somehow does not yet apply to Gitmo. But therein lies the rub, as soon as those prisoners are transferred to US soil, it get far harder to maintain those prisoners do not have some constitutional rights.
And the Powell take on Face the Nation was simply, until these prisoners questions of legal rights, indefinite detention, and the legality of military tribunals are resolved in some sort of comprehensive plan by Obama that the congress can also accept, congress is going to prefer to leave them in Gitmo so the can can be kicked further down the road. A vague plan not spelled out in detail will not pass congressional muster.
And without that comprehensive plan that neither GWB or Obama came up with, congress will not authorize the funds comments Colin.
Maybe others saw the same Face the Nation today, I will leave it to only those folks to contest if I am fairly accurate or not, in terms of what Powell actually said.
That is the difference. The law we have in place were designed to tried civilian criminal, not war criminal who are caught in some foreign country during the process or a war. There won't be any prisoner exchange either since they don't belong to a state military of any country and when our soldier got capture, they got their head chop off. For the war criminal, I think military tribune is better suited.
A: But GITMO is closing, so I'll be at Pelican Bay for 20 years instead.
Or did you assume closing GITMO will also change anything about why or how long they are held, or how they are getting a trial? Sorry, but it doesn't.
The only thing going on here is closing a place because of the symbol and bad image it represents for us. In other words, Europe hates us because of GITMO so we need to close it.
M: I think it's the world that hates us for offering them a vision and hope there are universal human rights which we preach about and then turn around and dishonor the moment it's inconvenient for us or the moments we elect some assholes like Bush and Cheney who were cowards and didn't trust the American way.
Or did you assume closing GITMO will also change anything about why or how long they are held, or how they are getting a trial? Sorry, but it doesn't.
The only thing going on here is closing a place because of the symbol and bad image it represents for us. In other words, Europe hates us because of GITMO so we need to close it.
M: I think it's the world that hates us for offering them a vision and hope there are universal human rights which we preach about and then turn around and dishonor the moment it's inconvenient for us or the moments we elect some assholes like Bush and Cheney who were cowards and didn't trust the American way.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
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Not to disagree with Moonbeam in any way, its so disillusioning to find that Obama is not the Messiah, and democrats unlike republicans, actually believe in the proper role of the legislative as co-equal branches of government. How shocking that we might actually be returning to our founding fathers original vision.
We surely must return to a monarchy or a dictatorship where things can get done by decree.
As one of the many American sheeple, I need to be led to green pastures, I am just so confused now, do I say Heil Obama, Heil Pelosi, Heil Bonher, or Heil
McConnell? Should I rush to Rush?
We surely must return to a monarchy or a dictatorship where things can get done by decree.
As one of the many American sheeple, I need to be led to green pastures, I am just so confused now, do I say Heil Obama, Heil Pelosi, Heil Bonher, or Heil
McConnell? Should I rush to Rush?
Maybe so. That does not change the reality that it is now clear to many in government, however. That reality is: The only reason there was a push to close Gitmo was simply to try and improve our image. Many now realize it wont erase the past, and it also has no effect on the future because closing Gitmo means nothing more than taking detainees from Point A and moving them to Pont B.
I think you are being a little naive. Closing Gitmo wasn't about American image, it was done to show the world Bush sucked, Bush policy sucked, in otherword, to embarrass Bush and the Republican. (not that I like Bush and republican, but I hate wasting tax payer, ie. my, money for some dumb political game)
All those how Gitmo is a symobo and how terrorist use it for recruiting is nothing but BS like terrorist don't exist or there was a lack of recruiting material for them before Gitmo. Like you said, closing Gitmo accomplishes nothing. It will only waste American tax payer money and resources. Imaging how much those senators/congressen's and their assistant and armies of staff's valuable time is gonna take just to debate where to house those terrorist.
You know what, world/extremist don't hate the US for Gitmo, they hate the US for watching for US's own self interest. Self interests like helping big pharma. and other major multi-national US companies to squeez every cents out of the poorest people. Self interest like helping government that is pro-US and anti-their own people. Self interest like working with corrupted third world countries government and companies to ensure good supply of oil, metal, wood and all other raw materials. So stop with those righteousness good and evil crap, face the real problem and deal with it.
Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that Bush wanted to close Gitmo, so I don't think closing Gitmo in any way could show that Bush sucked. And while I agree that what you said are additional reasons we are hated they aren't any less righteous or any less about evil.
Well, the only problem with that little 'co-equal' vision is Obama appears to be willing to preserve large chunks of the Imperial Presidency created by Bush (in large part). State secrets, withholding documents, indefinite detention, military tribunals, etc. Deja vu all over again. Very sad to see.
-Robert
c: Well, the only problem with that little 'co-equal' vision is Obama appears to be willing to preserve large chunks of the Imperial Presidency created by Bush (in large part). State secrets, withholding documents, indefinite detention, military tribunals, etc. Deja vu all over again. Very sad to see.
-Robert
M: Sad indeed but I would mention that the Bush Admin dug a hole so deep that there really are no easy ways to dig ourselves out of it.
We should never have gotten ourselves into this mess by violating other human beings, but we did and we have created profound evil. Now if we let that evil go in the name of Justice so long delayed and so profoundly compromised and that evil comes back to bite us in the ass, as everybody can justly fear and logically understand, how will anything good be served. If you take a dog and create a vicious rabid wolf and then say, oops my apologies, and then let it go in downtown Chicago, people are going to get upset, no?
-Robert
M: Sad indeed but I would mention that the Bush Admin dug a hole so deep that there really are no easy ways to dig ourselves out of it.
We should never have gotten ourselves into this mess by violating other human beings, but we did and we have created profound evil. Now if we let that evil go in the name of Justice so long delayed and so profoundly compromised and that evil comes back to bite us in the ass, as everybody can justly fear and logically understand, how will anything good be served. If you take a dog and create a vicious rabid wolf and then say, oops my apologies, and then let it go in downtown Chicago, people are going to get upset, no?
I'm naive? FYI, Bush wanted Gitmo closed. Unfortunately, the very same issue we face today has always been the roadblock: Where do we put them?
Closing it has absolutely nothing to do with Bush or the Republican party, and everything to do with trying to erase a symbol of torture. Thinking it has to do with embarrassing Bush is very naive.
My post had nothing to do with what or how terrorists/extremists feel or think about us or Gitmo. Nobody is claiming anything about them using Gitmo for propaganda.
This entire issue is about our civilized partners in the international community. You know, Europe, Japan, etc. Gitmo is a place where we tortured detainees, and some nations really hold that against us. Even a great portion of our very own nation hold that against us. Sadly, some people seem to think closing it will somehow erase that dislike and everyone will get over it.
I think the problem lie more with USA want to push for more westernization around the world but the middle east country prefer to stick with their 2000 years old tradition ala bowing 4-5 time a day and women need to copy their entire body when outside. The problem is the civilian their actually prefer westernization and the women prefer to dress more like western woman does. The extremist see this as USA in attempt to corrupt their culture and value and wish to wish to destory USA for it.
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