Democrats balk on closing Gitmo. Refuse to provide money to do so.

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
I think the problem lie more with USA want to push for more westernization around the world but the middle east country prefer to stick with their 2000 years old tradition ala bowing 4-5 time a day and women need to copy their entire body when outside. The problem is the civilian their actually prefer westernization and the women prefer to dress more like western woman does. The extremist see this as USA in attempt to corrupt their culture and value and wish to wish to destory USA for it.

Bowing four or five times a day is not a "2000 years old tradition" - it is as old as Islam.

 

[Lemon law]

I have to somewhat agree with Chess9 when he says, "Well, the only problem with that little 'co-equal' vision is Obama appears to be willing to preserve large chunks of the Imperial Presidency created by Bush (in large part). State secrets, withholding documents, indefinite detention, military tribunals, etc. Deja vu all over again. Very sad to see."

But we alos have to realize, somewhat as Moonbeam points out, that we dug ourselves into a hole long before Obama was elected Prez, and its a matter of not only getting out of the hole(s), but also in what order. When GWB&co dug us deep into multiple holes, we have the current banking and economic crisis to worry about first and foremost, two ongoing quagmires, human rights abuses only partly addressed, almost 100% GOP resistance and not that much democratic unity, and everywhere we look, every issue is going to be a big political fight.

The more normal President only concentrates on two or three focus areas where change is needed, and thus is often that Presidents long term legacy. And Obama is only four months into his Presidency, a time in which most Presidents concentrate on getting their team through the advice and consent phase of the Senate. And here Obama has at least two dozen areas that desperately needs changes, among them restoring the traditional three co equal branches of the Federal government. I can somewhat sympathize with Obama's reluctance to take on too much at one given time.

And maybe the better criteria may be for programs not yet made current priorities, in kicking the can further down the road, has Obama at least stopped the bleeding? In the area of torture, we can say he has, but sadly, I have to note, when Obama appoints a telco friendly person to head the FCC, he fails the stop the bleeding test.

 

[Lemon law]

I do not know if I can quite agree with Red Irish when he notes, "Bowing four or five times a day is not a "2000 years old tradition" - it is as old as Islam."

I assert, the ceremonies required for the sheeple to bow to power are as old as human civilization itself, they just take different forms, the Islamic one of facing Mecca is only 1200 years old, and anyone who thinks the USA is not subject to all kinds of patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels rituals is simply deep in their own denial.

Human beings are funny animals, some want to bow to power and others stubbornly resist. Its a weird paradox when the same thing is our greatest virtue and greatest fault, all at the same time. As human technology makes great advances, we humans are the same emotional stage we were at countless thousands of years ago.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: AFMatt

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: AFMatt

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
A: But GITMO is closing, so I'll be at Pelican Bay for 20 years instead.
Or did you assume closing GITMO will also change anything about why or how long they are held, or how they are getting a trial? Sorry, but it doesn't.
The only thing going on here is closing a place because of the symbol and bad image it represents for us. In other words, Europe hates us because of GITMO so we need to close it.

M: I think it's the world that hates us for offering them a vision and hope there are universal human rights which we preach about and then turn around and dishonor the moment it's inconvenient for us or the moments we elect some assholes like Bush and Cheney who were cowards and didn't trust the American way.

Maybe so. That does not change the reality that it is now clear to many in government, however. That reality is: The only reason there was a push to close Gitmo was simply to try and improve our image. Many now realize it wont erase the past, and it also has no effect on the future because closing Gitmo means nothing more than taking detainees from Point A and moving them to Pont B.

I think you are being a little naive. Closing Gitmo wasn't about American image, it was done to show the world Bush sucked, Bush policy sucked, in otherword, to embarrass Bush and the Republican. (not that I like Bush and republican, but I hate wasting tax payer, ie. my, money for some dumb political game)

I'm naive? FYI, Bush wanted Gitmo closed. Unfortunately, the very same issue we face today has always been the roadblock: Where do we put them?
Closing it has absolutely nothing to do with Bush or the Republican party, and everything to do with trying to erase a symbol of torture. Thinking it has to do with embarrassing Bush is very naive.

All those how Gitmo is a symobo and how terrorist use it for recruiting is nothing but BS like terrorist don't exist or there was a lack of recruiting material for them before Gitmo. Like you said, closing Gitmo accomplishes nothing. It will only waste American tax payer money and resources. Imaging how much those senators/congressen's and their assistant and armies of staff's valuable time is gonna take just to debate where to house those terrorist.

You know what, world/extremist don't hate the US for Gitmo, they hate the US for watching for US's own self interest. Self interests like helping big pharma. and other major multi-national US companies to squeez every cents out of the poorest people. Self interest like helping government that is pro-US and anti-their own people. Self interest like working with corrupted third world countries government and companies to ensure good supply of oil, metal, wood and all other raw materials. So stop with those righteousness good and evil crap, face the real problem and deal with it.

My post had nothing to do with what or how terrorists/extremists feel or think about us or Gitmo. Nobody is claiming anything about them using Gitmo for propaganda.
This entire issue is about our civilized partners in the international community. You know, Europe, Japan, etc. Gitmo is a place where we tortured detainees, and some nations really hold that against us. Even a great portion of our very own nation hold that against us. Sadly, some people seem to think closing it will somehow erase that dislike and everyone will get over it.

Yes Bush wanted Gitmo closed but after looking at the red tape and road block faced, he decided against it. The problem with Obama and the Democrats is that they don't even look at the difficulties, the cost and the lack of procedures. They simply arrived at the conclusion that Gitmo gotta be closed. And now you see people looking at the details, and even democrats don't want those terrorist in their back yard and don't want to share the cost.

So why all the haste in their decision? I see 2 possibility, 1) Obama is naive and think everything will just fall into places with his "hope". 2) They are determined to embarrass bush and republican by making Gitmo the center piece and the symbol of Bush admin's failure in human rights issue, and show case Obama and Democrat's righteous and just way.

The US/US Media is making Gitmo bigger deal than it is. I travel around the world and I know for a fact that average people on the street know little to none about where and what Gitmo is all about. I serious doubt EU/Japan and their leaders care about what American do with Gitmo other than those few occasions where they attend human right conventions. And if you seriously worry about those conventions and complains, you better also worry about the prison system, the death panelty, police brutality, and treatment of immigrants that draw complains in those conventions. It all depends on if your want to please everyone.

And I agree closing Gitmo will not erase the past, and again the only thing it achieve is democrat agenda: embarrass bush and show their "change" without ever considering the cost and the consequences.

 

[Moonbeam]

Hahahahahahahaha Democrats want to embarrass Bush. What a joke. Nobody on the planet is more embarrassed than Bush and Bush did that all by himself.

The poor sad Bush supporters who ruined our country by voting for that idiot also embarrassed themselves and hate Bush for the egg on their face. But because you had to have been a profoundly blind clown to have voted for him in the first place, what we have are the folk whose capacity for denial is at off the charts levels and they live in this fantasy land of unreality where they still have yet to see what a fool Bush made of them and himself. To these paranoid nitwits the world looks like a massive conspiracy to unmask them. It takes real talent to stand in the middle of the street with your butt hanging out while accusing people of staring.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Hard-luck Montana town pushes to house Gitmo detainees

The tiny town of Hardin, Montana, is offering an answer to a very thorny question: Where should the nation put terror detainees if the prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, is shut down by the end of the year as President Obama has pledged? Hardin, Montana, says the Two Rivers Regional Detention Facility should be used for Gitmo detainees.

Hardin, population 3,400, sits in the southeast corner of Montana, in the state's poorest county. Its small downtown is almost deserted at midday. The Dollar Store is going out of business. The Hardin Mini Mall is already shut. The town needs jobs -- and fast.

Hardin borrowed $27 million through bonds to build the Two Rivers Regional Correctional Facility in hopes of creating new employment opportunities. The jail was ready for prisoners two years ago, but has yet to house a single prisoner.

People here say politics in the capital of Helena has kept it empty. But the city council last month voted 5-0 to back a proposal to bring Gitmo detainees -- some of the most hardened terrorists in the world -- to the facility. Video Watch town's fight to be Gitmo West »

"It would bring jobs. Believe it or not, it would even bring hope and opportunity," Greg Smith, Hardin's economic development director, told CNN.

 

[nobodyknows]

Hardin, MT? Isn't that pretty close to Custer's Last Stand?

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: her209

Republicans have used this confusion to play on the localized fears and emotions of voters about prisoners being transferred to prisons in their states.

Bam! There it is.

What's so "badass" about theses guys that our prisons cannot handle them (as opposed to murderers, serial killers, rapists, etc.)?

because they dont want them interacting with the current prisoners and spreading their filth of a religion to the general population where it will grow and spread like the cancer it is. all of them need to kept out of our country and out of our prisons.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Some of you seemed to have missed a major point in the OP so I shall repeat it for you here.

Obama made a long list of promises when it comes to the war on terror and has back tracked on many of them.

The list:
End the war in Iraq has become withdraw all combat troops, but leave 50,000 'non-combat' troops. What the hell is a 'non-combat' troop??? The peace corps are 'non-combat' the US Army is not.-- shows how little you actually know about what your talking about!!

End military tribunals has turned into restarting them with a few new rules in place. -- again you are leaving out pettinent information that if you used iot would make you look like as freakin fool!! Those new rules you speak of are very major rules..for example the detainees now get the same representation that you or I would get...the detainees also during the trial would have rights...whereas under your bedpartnert GWB the detainees had no legalp; rights.
Release the torture pics has turned into not releasing the torture pics.

Closing Gitmo, we can blame the Democrats in congress for that one..---they will figure it out there is time....the main thing is to at least start the ball rolling!!

End warrantless wire taps? Nope, still using them AND defending them in court.
In the interest of Ntional Securities I favor warrantless wire taps.....every administration since it became possible to do wirtetaps has done it and they will conitnue in some way!!


What disgusts me about all this is that Obama ran on the promise to end all of this stuff and the media gave him a free pass on that promise and now reality is setting in and they are giving him a free pass on changing his mind as well.

Whats discusts me is brain farts like you actually want Obama to have everything clean and tidy by now, without realizing it took your bed partner GWB 8 years to screw things up....

but but but but Barry is the KING! he can do anything with the wave of his magic pen!

what time frame will you give him to clean things up before you feel disgusted like the rest of us? another 6 months, a year, his next term?

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Because Americans are cowards and assholes, they will trade freedom and liberty for safety. Gitmo is the evil side of our paranoid fears made manifest, a visible representation of our own unfaced evil.

In short we have dug a deep hole and buried ourselves in it. We have fucked ourselves with our own evil. We want to fix the problem but the Democrats are smart moral cowards. They know if they close Gitmo and somebody in there today harms us tomorrow the Republicans will turn it into a powerful political issue claiming Democrats are traitors and did something to kill our own people.

Democrats aren't going to hand Republicans a way to screw them just because they might like to do the right think. They are moral cowards who prefer to stay in office. You can blame the Republicans, however, for being the ultimate assholes, because if they didn't live off the evil of American paranoia and fear, they wouldn't be waiting like the spiders they are for the Democrats to fall in that web.

So when it comes right down to it, Gitmo is you. It exists because you are a coward and an asshole.

wow who let Rush in the forums?

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Gates: Closing Guantanamo prison 'more complicated'
27 September 2009

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Defense Secretary Robert Gates acknowledges that closing the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, will likely take longer than planned.

"I think it has proven more complicated than anticipated," Gates said in an interview broadcast Sunday on CNN's "State of the Union."

Noting he had pushed for a firm deadline of January 2010 for closing the controversial facility, Gates said: "If you have to extend that date, if at least you have a strong plan showing you're making progress in that direction, then this -- it shouldn't be a problem to extend it and we'll just see whether that has to happen or not."

In a separate interview on the ABC program "This Week," Gates said closing the military prison on schedule would be "tough."

Also on ABC, Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona said he attended briefings in which he was told the Guantanamo facility was unlikely to close on schedule.

"Apparently they're certainly not going to make that deadline," McCain said. "But we should continue to work towards the closure of Guantanamo Bay because of the image that it has in the world, of brutality, [which] harms our image very badly."

Two senior administration officials told CNN on Friday that the Guantanamo facility was unlikely to close by the deadline set by President Obama. They cited legal complications for the delay, but said they were still optimistic about shutting the facility soon.

The delay represents a blow to Obama, who signed an executive order during his first week in office in January to set the deadline for closing the facility.

Republican opponents are calling for Guantanamo prison to keep operating, rather than having terrorism detainees brought to U.S. soil.

Sen. Christopher Bond, R-Missouri, said on "FOX News Sunday" that if Guantanamo prisoners transferred to maximum-security prisons in the United States got seriously ill, they would be sent to a prison hospital facility in Missouri.

"My constituents and I think that would be a very bad idea," Bond said.

On the same program, Democratic Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California said the terrorism suspects would be held in maximum-security prisons.

"No one is going to put these people in anyone's neighborhood, as some have tried to say," Feinstein said.

She said she would accept Guantanamo prisoners moving to California.

"In a maximum-security prison, I don't worry about it, provided the prison is set up to accommodate it, and I believe we have facilities that are," she said.

Meanwhile, senior administration officials insisted the White House is making progress in finding third-party countries to accept detainees who remain at the prison.

On Saturday, the U.S. Justice Department announced that two detainees at the Guantanamo facility had been transferred to Ireland and a third to Yemen. They were approved for transfer after an interagency organization called the Guantanamo Review Task Force performed "a comprehensive review" of the cases, according to the Justice Department.

More than 220 detainees remain at Guantanamo. Since 2002, more than 550 detainees have departed the facility for other countries.

The countries include Albania, Algeria, Afghanistan, Australia, Bangladesh, Bahrain, Belgium, Bermuda, Chad, Denmark, Egypt, France, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Libya, the Maldives, Mauritania, Morocco, Pakistan, Portugal, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Sweden, Sudan, Tajikistan, Turkey, Uganda, the United Kingdom and Yemen

This news makes me sad.

 

[JSt0rm]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
I didn't realize Prof was so adamant about Gitmo being closed.

In fact I thought he wanted it to stay open.

This. And its Bullshit he wont close it.

 

[JSt0rm]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
I see the lib apologists chiming in...

Funny how you all thought this guy was running on Hope (TM) and Change (TM) and yet, all we seem to be getting is more of the same. A crippling amount more...

Is that funny? Yet in all your wisdom you voted for bush twice? harharhar I laugh in your face.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
I see the lib apologists chiming in...

Funny how you all thought this guy was running on Hope (TM) and Change (TM) and yet, all we seem to be getting is more of the same. A crippling amount more...

Is that funny? Yet in all your wisdom you voted for bush twice? harharhar I laugh in your face.

Let me guess...you voted for McCain? Har har indeed.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: jpeyton
I didn't realize Prof was so adamant about Gitmo being closed.

In fact I thought he wanted it to stay open.

This. And its Bullshit he wont close it.

Heh, Gitmo *will* be closed, it's just that it's going to take a bit longer than some would hope.

Don't confuse delay with cancellation.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: jpeyton
I didn't realize Prof was so adamant about Gitmo being closed.

In fact I thought he wanted it to stay open.

This. And its Bullshit he wont close it.

Heh, Gitmo *will* be closed, it's just that it's going to take a bit longer than some would hope.

Don't confuse delay with cancellation.

It could be closed in a week if politics and the NIMBY syndrom were removed.

It sounded like a great slogan when the Repub were in charge - now the Dems are finding out that the bite is worse than the bark.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Seems that the Democrats are becoming more and more like Bush every day when it comes to the war on terror.

Can anyone name a major difference between Bush's policies at the END of his term compared to what Obama and the Democrats are now doing?

Just the end, eh?

I wish I could get a free pass for invading sovereign nations...Andorra would be so done

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: Bateluer
They balked because they tried to close Gitmo without any plans to move the prisoners. They had no idea what to do with them, some of which are seriously dangerous and shouldn't be allowed to roam free to plan the murders of more innocent people.

Emphasis mine...

 

[manowar821]

Nope. You're not missing anything. Democrats are douche-bags, too.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Gates: Closing Guantanamo prison 'more complicated'
27 September 2009

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Defense Secretary Robert Gates acknowledges that closing the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, will likely take longer than planned.

"I think it has proven more complicated than anticipated," Gates said in an interview broadcast Sunday on CNN's "State of the Union."

Noting he had pushed for a firm deadline of January 2010 for closing the controversial facility, Gates said: "If you have to extend that date, if at least you have a strong plan showing you're making progress in that direction, then this -- it shouldn't be a problem to extend it and we'll just see whether that has to happen or not."

In a separate interview on the ABC program "This Week," Gates said closing the military prison on schedule would be "tough."

Also on ABC, Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona said he attended briefings in which he was told the Guantanamo facility was unlikely to close on schedule.

"Apparently they're certainly not going to make that deadline," McCain said. "But we should continue to work towards the closure of Guantanamo Bay because of the image that it has in the world, of brutality, [which] harms our image very badly."

Two senior administration officials told CNN on Friday that the Guantanamo facility was unlikely to close by the deadline set by President Obama. They cited legal complications for the delay, but said they were still optimistic about shutting the facility soon.

The delay represents a blow to Obama, who signed an executive order during his first week in office in January to set the deadline for closing the facility.

Republican opponents are calling for Guantanamo prison to keep operating, rather than having terrorism detainees brought to U.S. soil.

Sen. Christopher Bond, R-Missouri, said on "FOX News Sunday" that if Guantanamo prisoners transferred to maximum-security prisons in the United States got seriously ill, they would be sent to a prison hospital facility in Missouri.

"My constituents and I think that would be a very bad idea," Bond said.

On the same program, Democratic Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California said the terrorism suspects would be held in maximum-security prisons.

"No one is going to put these people in anyone's neighborhood, as some have tried to say," Feinstein said.

She said she would accept Guantanamo prisoners moving to California.

"In a maximum-security prison, I don't worry about it, provided the prison is set up to accommodate it, and I believe we have facilities that are," she said.

Meanwhile, senior administration officials insisted the White House is making progress in finding third-party countries to accept detainees who remain at the prison.

On Saturday, the U.S. Justice Department announced that two detainees at the Guantanamo facility had been transferred to Ireland and a third to Yemen. They were approved for transfer after an interagency organization called the Guantanamo Review Task Force performed "a comprehensive review" of the cases, according to the Justice Department.

More than 220 detainees remain at Guantanamo. Since 2002, more than 550 detainees have departed the facility for other countries.

The countries include Albania, Algeria, Afghanistan, Australia, Bangladesh, Bahrain, Belgium, Bermuda, Chad, Denmark, Egypt, France, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Libya, the Maldives, Mauritania, Morocco, Pakistan, Portugal, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Sweden, Sudan, Tajikistan, Turkey, Uganda, the United Kingdom and Yemen

This news makes me sad.

Put this under "no shit sherlock". Many of the remaining detainee's will not be taken in by any country. Did these people think this decision through before signing a meaningless presidential order?

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Put this under "no shit sherlock". Many of the remaining detainee's will not be taken in by any country. Did these people think this decision through before signing a meaningless presidential order?

If that's the case we should detain them here. We've got terrorists, serial killers, serial rapists, etc in our prison system already. Fvck this NIMBY crap.

 

[Ausm]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: Genx87
Put this under "no shit sherlock". Many of the remaining detainee's will not be taken in by any country. Did these people think this decision through before signing a meaningless presidential order?

If that's the case we should detain them here. We've got terrorists, serial killers, serial rapists, etc in our prison system already. Fvck this NIMBY crap.

I agree when's the last time someone broke out of the Colorado state maximum security prison?

 

[Ausm]

Do you really think that trying to repair an 8 year clusterfuck of the Bush administration is going to be a 5 minute job?

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: Ausm
Do you really think that trying to repair an 8 year clusterfuck of the Bush administration is going to be a 5 minute job?

It wasn't us who made the promise that it would be closed in a year. You'd think that someone in Obama's position would have done his homework before making such a claim...

Like I said, it's sad.

 

[Ausm]

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: Ausm
Do you really think that trying to repair an 8 year clusterfuck of the Bush administration is going to be a 5 minute job?

It wasn't us who made the promise that it would be closed in a year. You'd think that someone in Obama's position would have done his homework before making such a claim...

Like I said, it's sad.

You can blame your side for Gitmo which was TRULY sad. Cheney's love child..