Decriminalize Drugs ?

[frostedflakes]

I guess I've never really understood the point of decriminalization. I think the most important thing is putting an end to the underground market for marijuana, and legalization is the only way that's going to happen. Then again, legalization would be an enormous policy shift for the United States. Baby steps will be necessary, so decriminalization will probably have to come before legalization.

 

[Cheesetogo]

It sounds like it has had a positive effect, but isn't it the illegal trade of drugs that is the biggest issue? If it's still illegal to traffic them, then isn't that problem still there? Please note that I'm not stating that it should be legal, I'm just making an observation.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
I guess I've never really understood the point of decriminalization. I think the most important thing is putting an end to the underground market for marijuana, and legalization is the only way that's going to happen. Then again, legalization would be an enormous policy shift for the United States. Baby steps will be necessary, so decriminalization will probably have to come before legalization.

I've already lived in some decriminalized states, and it's for the best. People don't run from the cops for fear of a strike on their record, prices for the product come down (it'd be better if we could eliminate large rings by legalizing it though), and if the government would tax it and stop bemoaning it like right wing nutjobs and liberal "council them" idiots who don't realize it's more or less a miracle drug and who are unaware of the benefits we'd all be a lot better off.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: Dragula22

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Dragula22
Sao,

You seem to promote prohibition under the premise that prohibition works.

IF there was a simple way to make all recreational drugs (includion etoh) disappear, there would be a decent amount of people to take your side.

But any realist would be aware that such a thing is near impossible.

What people want, other people will provide a service for.

All these addicts you speak of (a minority of the drug abusing population), are in need of TREATMENT. Not criminalization and incarceration. Would you agree?

The only way to abolish drug abuse is education and treatment facilities. Not a drug war.

A vision for drug legalization IMO is, full legalization with hefty taxes, in which these taxes would be used for said education and treatment facilities.

Problem: If you legalize something, then you must give crredibility that is not bad. If something is not bad, you should not need education or treatment facilities for it. If you need treatment facilities, then obviously it should not have been legalized in the first place.

Ultimately legalization of Marijuana for just medication will ultimately result in people abusing the system for prescriptions they dont need. Much like they do now for Pain Killers- just to get high off of Vicodin. People will do anything just to get high.


however...its not the Marijuana itself or the alcohol itself... its intoxication that i oppose.
Given the option to actually write and enforce the law, I might actually legalize alcohol and marijuana, (as even i recognize they have possible legitimate uses - even I enjoy the taste of a good beer) but the punishment for intoxication would be swift and severe, and any crime committed under intoxication results in instant death. Since I cant kill people for intoxication (old testament style), I support prohibition, because it seems to be the only viable alternative.

Our gov't and laws aren't meant to become a nanny and dictate how we decide to live our lives. Our constitutional mandate is for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We all have different dreams and ideals, but the law is made to protect the virtues of life, freedom, happiness.

There is a problem if what YOU deem immoral is considered the end all be all for EVERYONE ELSE.
It has nothing to do with morality. Nothing good can or ever will come from intoxication, it always will eventually lead to overdose, accidents, rapes, fights, abuse,job loss, jail, etc

Legalization does not at all give the impression that drugs are safe and good. Rather, it would be an admittance that simply outlawing was an inadequate way of control/mitigating the issue, and a complete regulation may provide more power/control to the gov't.
if the people will not obey the government when the government says dont do something, they sure are not going to obey it if you says you can do it as long as condition 1, condition 2, etc. I mean afterall - discontinuing prohibition has stopped drunk driving right? you either will obey the laws or you wont.

Treatment facilities already exist even though drugs are outlawed. Your argument makes no sense. Treatment facilities need to continue to exist as people are mostly unaware of the power of drugs, due to the current minimal "just say no" education policy. People have no idea what they're getting themselves into. You dont legalize something dangerous and then go set up disaster bailout center for the fallout. this is a stupid as taxing cigarettes then using the proceeds to pay for cigarette lung cancer centers. just make the dam things illegal. Next well have to legalize prostitution and take all the taxes to pay for STD and abortion centers. you attack the cause of the problem, not try to mitigate away the unpleasant effects.

I don't know why you brought out medical mj, but you bring up current LEGALIZED drugs like vicodin, morphine and talk about their abuse. So how come you're not promoting the prohibition of these drugs?

Here's a news flash: Virtually all drugs are dangerous, addictive, or have permanent side effects. Would you want to outlaw all medication?
if you read my response, its not the substance itself. its the "just to be high/intoxicated" which as I said above, will always eventually lead to something else much worse.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Dragula22
Here's a news flash: Virtually all drugs are dangerous, addictive, or have permanent side effects. Would you want to outlaw all medication?
if you read my response, its not the substance itself. its the "just to be high/intoxicated" which as I said above, will always eventually lead to something else much worse.

WRONG
Thanks for playing, here's a copy of the home game, now GTFO

 

[40Hands]

Snipped out Dragula22's text.

Originally posted by: sao123


It has nothing to do with morality. Nothing good can or ever will come from intoxication, it always will eventually lead to overdose, accidents, rapes, fights, abuse,job loss, jail, etc


if the people will not obey the government when the government says dont do something, they sure are not going to obey it if you says you can do it as long as condition 1, condition 2, etc. I mean afterall - discontinuing prohibition has stopped drunk driving right? you either will obey the laws or you wont.

You dont legalize something dangerous and then go set up disaster bailout center for the fallout. this is a stupid as taxing cigarettes then using the proceeds to pay for cigarette lung cancer centers. just make the dam things illegal. Next well have to legalize prostitution and take all the taxes to pay for STD and abortion centers. you attack the cause of the problem, not try to mitigate away the unpleasant effects.


if you read my response, its not the substance itself. its the "just to be high/intoxicated" which as I said above, will always eventually lead to something else much worse.

Hearsay/conjecture.

As usual, you have nothing to back up what you say.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Dragula22

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Dragula22
Sao,

You seem to promote prohibition under the premise that prohibition works.

IF there was a simple way to make all recreational drugs (includion etoh) disappear, there would be a decent amount of people to take your side.

But any realist would be aware that such a thing is near impossible.

What people want, other people will provide a service for.

All these addicts you speak of (a minority of the drug abusing population), are in need of TREATMENT. Not criminalization and incarceration. Would you agree?

The only way to abolish drug abuse is education and treatment facilities. Not a drug war.

A vision for drug legalization IMO is, full legalization with hefty taxes, in which these taxes would be used for said education and treatment facilities.

Problem: If you legalize something, then you must give crredibility that is not bad. If something is not bad, you should not need education or treatment facilities for it. If you need treatment facilities, then obviously it should not have been legalized in the first place.

Ultimately legalization of Marijuana for just medication will ultimately result in people abusing the system for prescriptions they dont need. Much like they do now for Pain Killers- just to get high off of Vicodin. People will do anything just to get high.


however...its not the Marijuana itself or the alcohol itself... its intoxication that i oppose.
Given the option to actually write and enforce the law, I might actually legalize alcohol and marijuana, (as even i recognize they have possible legitimate uses - even I enjoy the taste of a good beer) but the punishment for intoxication would be swift and severe, and any crime committed under intoxication results in instant death. Since I cant kill people for intoxication (old testament style), I support prohibition, because it seems to be the only viable alternative.

Our gov't and laws aren't meant to become a nanny and dictate how we decide to live our lives. Our constitutional mandate is for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We all have different dreams and ideals, but the law is made to protect the virtues of life, freedom, happiness.

There is a problem if what YOU deem immoral is considered the end all be all for EVERYONE ELSE.
It has nothing to do with morality. Nothing good can or ever will come from intoxication, it always will eventually lead to overdose, accidents, rapes, fights, abuse,job loss, jail, etc

Legalization does not at all give the impression that drugs are safe and good. Rather, it would be an admittance that simply outlawing was an inadequate way of control/mitigating the issue, and a complete regulation may provide more power/control to the gov't.
if the people will not obey the government when the government says dont do something, they sure are not going to obey it if you says you can do it as long as condition 1, condition 2, etc. I mean afterall - discontinuing prohibition has stopped drunk driving right? you either will obey the laws or you wont.

Treatment facilities already exist even though drugs are outlawed. Your argument makes no sense. Treatment facilities need to continue to exist as people are mostly unaware of the power of drugs, due to the current minimal "just say no" education policy. People have no idea what they're getting themselves into. You dont legalize something dangerous and then go set up disaster bailout center for the fallout. this is a stupid as taxing cigarettes then using the proceeds to pay for cigarette lung cancer centers. just make the dam things illegal. Next well have to legalize prostitution and take all the taxes to pay for STD and abortion centers. you attack the cause of the problem, not try to mitigate away the unpleasant effects.

I don't know why you brought out medical mj, but you bring up current LEGALIZED drugs like vicodin, morphine and talk about their abuse. So how come you're not promoting the prohibition of these drugs?

Here's a news flash: Virtually all drugs are dangerous, addictive, or have permanent side effects. Would you want to outlaw all medication?
if you read my response, its not the substance itself. its the "just to be high/intoxicated" which as I said above, will always eventually lead to something else much worse.

Okay, I'll respond to your points in order.


-Actually lots of good things come from marijuana, such as nausea relief, boosts in white cell count according to recent studies, reduction of chronic pain, relief from stress and anxiety to name a few.

-Prohibition didn't stop drunk driving either, all it did was deprive the government of tax revenue and move in violent bootleggers, much like drug criminalizing has. The drunk drivers of our society are a minority, and can't be used as a general rule. Some times trees fall on loggers, should we outlaw chain saws?

-Cigarettes would be a lot healthier if they weren't manufactured with so many chemicals and additives for one. Secondly, only a small portion of the taxes go to fund these treatment centers, which doesn't raise the healthcare costs of the nation anymore than them living in a hospital bed an extra 10 years if they didn't smoke. Third, you inhale more crap out of tailpipes in a day than a few cigarettes, most complications come upon chain smokers. Fourth, some places have legalized prostitution with positive results for the economy and keeping it in certain districts helps on enforcement.

-It will not always lead to something worse. In fact, many times it leads to something much, much better, as outlined in my first point.

 

[frostedflakes]

sao, how many murders are committed while high on marijuana? How about rapes? Spousal abuse? Marijuana is a completely different beast than a substance like alcohol. IMO, alcohol is a FAR worse substance than marijuana, yet somehow marijuana is still illegal. It just boggles the mind.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
sao, how many murders are committed while high on marijuana? How about rapes? Spousal abuse? Marijuana is a completely different beast than a substance like alcohol. IMO, alcohol is a FAR worse substance than marijuana, yet somehow marijuana is still illegal. It just boggles the mind.

This is the truth. Marijuana has helped people live their lives, and has never been a cause of death. It's illegality is simply shocking.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Dragula22

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Dragula22
Sao,

You seem to promote prohibition under the premise that prohibition works.

IF there was a simple way to make all recreational drugs (includion etoh) disappear, there would be a decent amount of people to take your side.

But any realist would be aware that such a thing is near impossible.

What people want, other people will provide a service for.

All these addicts you speak of (a minority of the drug abusing population), are in need of TREATMENT. Not criminalization and incarceration. Would you agree?

The only way to abolish drug abuse is education and treatment facilities. Not a drug war.

A vision for drug legalization IMO is, full legalization with hefty taxes, in which these taxes would be used for said education and treatment facilities.

Problem: If you legalize something, then you must give crredibility that is not bad. If something is not bad, you should not need education or treatment facilities for it. If you need treatment facilities, then obviously it should not have been legalized in the first place.

Ultimately legalization of Marijuana for just medication will ultimately result in people abusing the system for prescriptions they dont need. Much like they do now for Pain Killers- just to get high off of Vicodin. People will do anything just to get high.


however...its not the Marijuana itself or the alcohol itself... its intoxication that i oppose.
Given the option to actually write and enforce the law, I might actually legalize alcohol and marijuana, (as even i recognize they have possible legitimate uses - even I enjoy the taste of a good beer) but the punishment for intoxication would be swift and severe, and any crime committed under intoxication results in instant death. Since I cant kill people for intoxication (old testament style), I support prohibition, because it seems to be the only viable alternative.

Our gov't and laws aren't meant to become a nanny and dictate how we decide to live our lives. Our constitutional mandate is for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We all have different dreams and ideals, but the law is made to protect the virtues of life, freedom, happiness.

There is a problem if what YOU deem immoral is considered the end all be all for EVERYONE ELSE.
It has nothing to do with morality. Nothing good can or ever will come from intoxication, it always will eventually lead to overdose, accidents, rapes, fights, abuse,job loss, jail, etc

Legalization does not at all give the impression that drugs are safe and good. Rather, it would be an admittance that simply outlawing was an inadequate way of control/mitigating the issue, and a complete regulation may provide more power/control to the gov't.
if the people will not obey the government when the government says dont do something, they sure are not going to obey it if you says you can do it as long as condition 1, condition 2, etc. I mean afterall - discontinuing prohibition has stopped drunk driving right? you either will obey the laws or you wont.

Treatment facilities already exist even though drugs are outlawed. Your argument makes no sense. Treatment facilities need to continue to exist as people are mostly unaware of the power of drugs, due to the current minimal "just say no" education policy. People have no idea what they're getting themselves into. You dont legalize something dangerous and then go set up disaster bailout center for the fallout. this is a stupid as taxing cigarettes then using the proceeds to pay for cigarette lung cancer centers. just make the dam things illegal. Next well have to legalize prostitution and take all the taxes to pay for STD and abortion centers. you attack the cause of the problem, not try to mitigate away the unpleasant effects.

I don't know why you brought out medical mj, but you bring up current LEGALIZED drugs like vicodin, morphine and talk about their abuse. So how come you're not promoting the prohibition of these drugs?

Here's a news flash: Virtually all drugs are dangerous, addictive, or have permanent side effects. Would you want to outlaw all medication?
if you read my response, its not the substance itself. its the "just to be high/intoxicated" which as I said above, will always eventually lead to something else much worse.

Okay, I'll respond to your points in order.


-Actually lots of good things come from marijuana, such as nausea relief, boosts in white cell count according to recent studies, reduction of chronic pain, relief from stress and anxiety to name a few.

-Prohibition didn't stop drunk driving either, all it did was deprive the government of tax revenue and move in violent bootleggers, much like drug criminalizing has. The drunk drivers of our society are a minority, and can't be used as a general rule. Some times trees fall on loggers, should we outlaw chain saws?

-Cigarettes would be a lot healthier if they weren't manufactured with so many chemicals and additives for one. Secondly, only a small portion of the taxes go to fund these treatment centers, which doesn't raise the healthcare costs of the nation anymore than them living in a hospital bed an extra 10 years if they didn't smoke. Third, you inhale more crap out of tailpipes in a day than a few cigarettes, most complications come upon chain smokers. Fourth, some places have legalized prostitution with positive results for the economy and keeping it in certain districts helps on enforcement.

-It will not always lead to something worse. In fact, many times it leads to something much, much better, as outlined in my first point.

your first point did nothing to respond to my point, you completely missed it.

Actually lots of good things come from marijuana, such as nausea relief, boosts in white cell count according to recent studies, reduction of chronic pain, relief from stress and anxiety to name a few.

1 joint will do this, 1 glass of wine helps digestion. it doesnt mean you smoke the whole bag till you are stoned off your ass or drink the whole 24 pak until your passed out. Distinguish between use and abuse. Acceptable minimal use - ok. Abuse - leads to intoxication leads addiction and/or other criminal behavior.

-Prohibition didn't stop drunk driving either, all it did was deprive the government of tax revenue and move in violent bootleggers, much like drug criminalizing has. So we ignore the existance of a problem, as long as its a peaceful problem and can make a profit from it? Thats bullshit.

-Cigarettes would be a lot healthier if they weren't manufactured with so many chemicals and additives for one. Secondly, only a small portion of the taxes go to fund these treatment centers, which doesn't raise the healthcare costs of the nation anymore than them living in a hospital bed an extra 10 years if they didn't smoke. Third, you inhale more crap out of tailpipes in a day than a few cigarettes, most complications come upon chain smokers. Fourth, some places have legalized prostitution with positive results for the economy and keeping it in certain districts helps on enforcement. See previous comment. - same applies

-It will not always lead to something worse. In fact, many times it leads to something much, much better, as outlined in my first point. false, see my first point.

 

[Howard]

What I find strange is sao123's premise that things should not be legalized if they cannot be proven to be harmless. It makes much more sense to say that things should be criminalized if and only if they can be proven to be harmful - and should only be done so VERY, VERY carefully.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Dragula22

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Dragula22
Sao,

You seem to promote prohibition under the premise that prohibition works.

IF there was a simple way to make all recreational drugs (includion etoh) disappear, there would be a decent amount of people to take your side.

But any realist would be aware that such a thing is near impossible.

What people want, other people will provide a service for.

All these addicts you speak of (a minority of the drug abusing population), are in need of TREATMENT. Not criminalization and incarceration. Would you agree?

The only way to abolish drug abuse is education and treatment facilities. Not a drug war.

A vision for drug legalization IMO is, full legalization with hefty taxes, in which these taxes would be used for said education and treatment facilities.

Problem: If you legalize something, then you must give crredibility that is not bad. If something is not bad, you should not need education or treatment facilities for it. If you need treatment facilities, then obviously it should not have been legalized in the first place.

Ultimately legalization of Marijuana for just medication will ultimately result in people abusing the system for prescriptions they dont need. Much like they do now for Pain Killers- just to get high off of Vicodin. People will do anything just to get high.


however...its not the Marijuana itself or the alcohol itself... its intoxication that i oppose.
Given the option to actually write and enforce the law, I might actually legalize alcohol and marijuana, (as even i recognize they have possible legitimate uses - even I enjoy the taste of a good beer) but the punishment for intoxication would be swift and severe, and any crime committed under intoxication results in instant death. Since I cant kill people for intoxication (old testament style), I support prohibition, because it seems to be the only viable alternative.

Our gov't and laws aren't meant to become a nanny and dictate how we decide to live our lives. Our constitutional mandate is for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We all have different dreams and ideals, but the law is made to protect the virtues of life, freedom, happiness.

There is a problem if what YOU deem immoral is considered the end all be all for EVERYONE ELSE.
It has nothing to do with morality. Nothing good can or ever will come from intoxication, it always will eventually lead to overdose, accidents, rapes, fights, abuse,job loss, jail, etc

Legalization does not at all give the impression that drugs are safe and good. Rather, it would be an admittance that simply outlawing was an inadequate way of control/mitigating the issue, and a complete regulation may provide more power/control to the gov't.
if the people will not obey the government when the government says dont do something, they sure are not going to obey it if you says you can do it as long as condition 1, condition 2, etc. I mean afterall - discontinuing prohibition has stopped drunk driving right? you either will obey the laws or you wont.

Treatment facilities already exist even though drugs are outlawed. Your argument makes no sense. Treatment facilities need to continue to exist as people are mostly unaware of the power of drugs, due to the current minimal "just say no" education policy. People have no idea what they're getting themselves into. You dont legalize something dangerous and then go set up disaster bailout center for the fallout. this is a stupid as taxing cigarettes then using the proceeds to pay for cigarette lung cancer centers. just make the dam things illegal. Next well have to legalize prostitution and take all the taxes to pay for STD and abortion centers. you attack the cause of the problem, not try to mitigate away the unpleasant effects.

I don't know why you brought out medical mj, but you bring up current LEGALIZED drugs like vicodin, morphine and talk about their abuse. So how come you're not promoting the prohibition of these drugs?

Here's a news flash: Virtually all drugs are dangerous, addictive, or have permanent side effects. Would you want to outlaw all medication?
if you read my response, its not the substance itself. its the "just to be high/intoxicated" which as I said above, will always eventually lead to something else much worse.

Okay, I'll respond to your points in order.


-Actually lots of good things come from marijuana, such as nausea relief, boosts in white cell count according to recent studies, reduction of chronic pain, relief from stress and anxiety to name a few.

-Prohibition didn't stop drunk driving either, all it did was deprive the government of tax revenue and move in violent bootleggers, much like drug criminalizing has. The drunk drivers of our society are a minority, and can't be used as a general rule. Some times trees fall on loggers, should we outlaw chain saws?

-Cigarettes would be a lot healthier if they weren't manufactured with so many chemicals and additives for one. Secondly, only a small portion of the taxes go to fund these treatment centers, which doesn't raise the healthcare costs of the nation anymore than them living in a hospital bed an extra 10 years if they didn't smoke. Third, you inhale more crap out of tailpipes in a day than a few cigarettes, most complications come upon chain smokers. Fourth, some places have legalized prostitution with positive results for the economy and keeping it in certain districts helps on enforcement.

-It will not always lead to something worse. In fact, many times it leads to something much, much better, as outlined in my first point.

your first point did nothing to respond to my point, you completely missed it.

Actually lots of good things come from marijuana, such as nausea relief, boosts in white cell count according to recent studies, reduction of chronic pain, relief from stress and anxiety to name a few.

1 joint will do this, 1 glass of wine helps digestion. it doesnt mean you smoke the whole bag till you are stoned off your ass or drink the whole 24 pak until your passed out. Distinguish between use and abuse. Acceptable minimal use - ok. Abuse - leads to intoxication leads addiction and/or other criminal behavior.

-Prohibition didn't stop drunk driving either, all it did was deprive the government of tax revenue and move in violent bootleggers, much like drug criminalizing has. So we ignore the existance of a problem, as long as its a peaceful problem and can make a profit from it? Thats bullshit.

-Cigarettes would be a lot healthier if they weren't manufactured with so many chemicals and additives for one. Secondly, only a small portion of the taxes go to fund these treatment centers, which doesn't raise the healthcare costs of the nation anymore than them living in a hospital bed an extra 10 years if they didn't smoke. Third, you inhale more crap out of tailpipes in a day than a few cigarettes, most complications come upon chain smokers. Fourth, some places have legalized prostitution with positive results for the economy and keeping it in certain districts helps on enforcement. See previous comment. - same applies

-It will not always lead to something worse. In fact, many times it leads to something much, much better, as outlined in my first point. false, see my first point.

I don't think intoxication means what you think it means, but you admitted a joint would help, so as I don't feel like rephrasing things, I'm going to go back to working.

Ciao, Sao.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

I was indoctrinated into a world of idiocy, so that is where I am going to stay!

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
sao, how many murders are committed while high on marijuana? How about rapes? Spousal abuse? Marijuana is a completely different beast than a substance like alcohol. IMO, alcohol is a FAR worse substance than marijuana, yet somehow marijuana is still illegal. It just boggles the mind.

This is the truth. Marijuana has helped people live their lives, and has never been a cause of death. It's illegality is simply shocking.

The DAWN report statistics do not agree with your assertion.

 

[Modelworks]

Legalization of drugs is never going to happen , at best what is illegal now would become a prescription medication . If you tried to legalize things like cocaine the drug companies would be all over it because drugs like morphine are prescription only. What Portugal did can work anywhere, doesn't matter if you have 1000 people or 1 billion. All people are emotional, if you can get them to see the harm that drugs are doing to them, and provide a way out that doesn't involve prison I can't see that any sane person would refuse .

The way Portugal did things you can still use drugs, but if you have a serious problem with them , you can also get help. In the USA good luck getting help even if you want it. Treatment programs want paying customers and money is not something most addicts have. Portugal took the money they used for keeping people in prison for drug related crimes and used it to fund treatment and prevention.

Aids is another thing that drug use spreads. Their program also dropped infection rates.

 

[meltdown75]

its intoxication that i oppose

That's ironic sao123, because even the most stoned / drunk bastard with an internet connection could make more headway in these "debates" than you. It's obvious your sheltered pastoral upbringing has left you severely out of touch with reality. There are normal people out there that use pot and other substances recreationally, and no matter how much you babble, it won't change the FACT that they are good people with no problems at all, and with a far greater grip on the big picture than yourself. Keep posting though, it truly is entertaining and I know I speak for more than myself when I say so.

 

[Ns1]

Originally posted by: sao123

https://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/about/whoweare.asp">The DAWN report statistics do not agree with your assertion.</a>

Sao123: Linkfail since 05/27/2002

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
sao, how many murders are committed while high on marijuana? How about rapes? Spousal abuse? Marijuana is a completely different beast than a substance like alcohol. IMO, alcohol is a FAR worse substance than marijuana, yet somehow marijuana is still illegal. It just boggles the mind.

This is the truth. Marijuana has helped people live their lives, and has never been a cause of death. It's illegality is simply shocking.

https://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/about/whoweare.asp">The DAWN report statistics do not agree with your assertion.</a>

A 404 Page Not Found error means the page is dead, not a person.

Look up any government statistic.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: meltdown75

its intoxication that i oppose

That's ironic sao123, because even the most stoned / drunk bastard with an internet connection could make more headway in these "debates" than you. It's obvious your sheltered pastoral upbringing has left you severely out of touch with reality. There are normal people out there that use pot and other substances recreationally, and no matter how much you babble, it won't change the FACT that they are good people with no problems at all, and with a far greater grip on the big picture than yourself. Keep posting though, it truly is entertaining and I know I speak for more than myself when I say so.

Oh, it surely is.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Dragula22

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Dragula22
Sao,

You seem to promote prohibition under the premise that prohibition works.

IF there was a simple way to make all recreational drugs (includion etoh) disappear, there would be a decent amount of people to take your side.

But any realist would be aware that such a thing is near impossible.

What people want, other people will provide a service for.

All these addicts you speak of (a minority of the drug abusing population), are in need of TREATMENT. Not criminalization and incarceration. Would you agree?

The only way to abolish drug abuse is education and treatment facilities. Not a drug war.

A vision for drug legalization IMO is, full legalization with hefty taxes, in which these taxes would be used for said education and treatment facilities.

Problem: If you legalize something, then you must give crredibility that is not bad. If something is not bad, you should not need education or treatment facilities for it. If you need treatment facilities, then obviously it should not have been legalized in the first place.

Ultimately legalization of Marijuana for just medication will ultimately result in people abusing the system for prescriptions they dont need. Much like they do now for Pain Killers- just to get high off of Vicodin. People will do anything just to get high.


however...its not the Marijuana itself or the alcohol itself... its intoxication that i oppose.
Given the option to actually write and enforce the law, I might actually legalize alcohol and marijuana, (as even i recognize they have possible legitimate uses - even I enjoy the taste of a good beer) but the punishment for intoxication would be swift and severe, and any crime committed under intoxication results in instant death. Since I cant kill people for intoxication (old testament style), I support prohibition, because it seems to be the only viable alternative.

Our gov't and laws aren't meant to become a nanny and dictate how we decide to live our lives. Our constitutional mandate is for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We all have different dreams and ideals, but the law is made to protect the virtues of life, freedom, happiness.

There is a problem if what YOU deem immoral is considered the end all be all for EVERYONE ELSE.
It has nothing to do with morality. Nothing good can or ever will come from intoxication, it always will eventually lead to overdose, accidents, rapes, fights, abuse,job loss, jail, etc

Legalization does not at all give the impression that drugs are safe and good. Rather, it would be an admittance that simply outlawing was an inadequate way of control/mitigating the issue, and a complete regulation may provide more power/control to the gov't.
if the people will not obey the government when the government says dont do something, they sure are not going to obey it if you says you can do it as long as condition 1, condition 2, etc. I mean afterall - discontinuing prohibition has stopped drunk driving right? you either will obey the laws or you wont.

Treatment facilities already exist even though drugs are outlawed. Your argument makes no sense. Treatment facilities need to continue to exist as people are mostly unaware of the power of drugs, due to the current minimal "just say no" education policy. People have no idea what they're getting themselves into. You dont legalize something dangerous and then go set up disaster bailout center for the fallout. this is a stupid as taxing cigarettes then using the proceeds to pay for cigarette lung cancer centers. just make the dam things illegal. Next well have to legalize prostitution and take all the taxes to pay for STD and abortion centers. you attack the cause of the problem, not try to mitigate away the unpleasant effects.

I don't know why you brought out medical mj, but you bring up current LEGALIZED drugs like vicodin, morphine and talk about their abuse. So how come you're not promoting the prohibition of these drugs?

Here's a news flash: Virtually all drugs are dangerous, addictive, or have permanent side effects. Would you want to outlaw all medication?
if you read my response, its not the substance itself. its the "just to be high/intoxicated" which as I said above, will always eventually lead to something else much worse.

Okay, I'll respond to your points in order.


-Actually lots of good things come from marijuana, such as nausea relief, boosts in white cell count according to recent studies, reduction of chronic pain, relief from stress and anxiety to name a few.

-Prohibition didn't stop drunk driving either, all it did was deprive the government of tax revenue and move in violent bootleggers, much like drug criminalizing has. The drunk drivers of our society are a minority, and can't be used as a general rule. Some times trees fall on loggers, should we outlaw chain saws?

-Cigarettes would be a lot healthier if they weren't manufactured with so many chemicals and additives for one. Secondly, only a small portion of the taxes go to fund these treatment centers, which doesn't raise the healthcare costs of the nation anymore than them living in a hospital bed an extra 10 years if they didn't smoke. Third, you inhale more crap out of tailpipes in a day than a few cigarettes, most complications come upon chain smokers. Fourth, some places have legalized prostitution with positive results for the economy and keeping it in certain districts helps on enforcement.

-It will not always lead to something worse. In fact, many times it leads to something much, much better, as outlined in my first point.

your first point did nothing to respond to my point, you completely missed it.

Actually lots of good things come from marijuana, such as nausea relief, boosts in white cell count according to recent studies, reduction of chronic pain, relief from stress and anxiety to name a few.

1 joint will do this, 1 glass of wine helps digestion. it doesnt mean you smoke the whole bag till you are stoned off your ass or drink the whole 24 pak until your passed out. Distinguish between use and abuse. Acceptable minimal use - ok. Abuse - leads to intoxication leads addiction and/or other criminal behavior.

-Prohibition didn't stop drunk driving either, all it did was deprive the government of tax revenue and move in violent bootleggers, much like drug criminalizing has. So we ignore the existance of a problem, as long as its a peaceful problem and can make a profit from it? Thats bullshit.

-Cigarettes would be a lot healthier if they weren't manufactured with so many chemicals and additives for one. Secondly, only a small portion of the taxes go to fund these treatment centers, which doesn't raise the healthcare costs of the nation anymore than them living in a hospital bed an extra 10 years if they didn't smoke. Third, you inhale more crap out of tailpipes in a day than a few cigarettes, most complications come upon chain smokers. Fourth, some places have legalized prostitution with positive results for the economy and keeping it in certain districts helps on enforcement. See previous comment. - same applies

-It will not always lead to something worse. In fact, many times it leads to something much, much better, as outlined in my first point. false, see my first point.

I don't think intoxication means what you think it means, but you admitted a joint would help, so as I don't feel like rephrasing things, I'm going to go back to working.

Ciao, Sao.

1 beer does not make you intoxicated, unless you weight 100 pounds, neither would 1 joint.

Ever heard of standardized blood test? > .08 BAC = intoxicated.
it would not be difficult to create such a test for "other drugs".

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
sao, how many murders are committed while high on marijuana? How about rapes? Spousal abuse? Marijuana is a completely different beast than a substance like alcohol. IMO, alcohol is a FAR worse substance than marijuana, yet somehow marijuana is still illegal. It just boggles the mind.

This is the truth. Marijuana has helped people live their lives, and has never been a cause of death. It's illegality is simply shocking.

The DAWN report statistics do not agree with your assertion.

A 404 Page Not Found error means the page is dead, not a person.

Look up any government statistic.

fixed the link

 

[frostedflakes]

sao, is your link supposed to prove a point or something? I'm looking at the mortality reports and seeing basically nothing about marijuana related deaths.

 

[Ns1]

Originally posted by: sao123

fixed the link

I spent a minute searching that pdf and couldn't find shit, so maybe you can point it out.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
sao, how many murders are committed while high on marijuana? How about rapes? Spousal abuse? Marijuana is a completely different beast than a substance like alcohol. IMO, alcohol is a FAR worse substance than marijuana, yet somehow marijuana is still illegal. It just boggles the mind.

This is the truth. Marijuana has helped people live their lives, and has never been a cause of death. It's illegality is simply shocking.

The DAWN report statistics do not agree with your assertion.

A 404 Page Not Found error means the page is dead, not a person.

Look up any government statistic.

fixed the link

Did you mean to link to the "Who We Are" page instead of something that's actually relevant to the discussion? Because that's what you did. I bet you're high right now, you self-loathing reefer addict!

 

[Ns1]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Did you mean to link to the "Who We Are" page instead of something that's actually relevant to the discussion? Because that's what you did. I bet you're high right now, you self-loathing reefer addict!

Clearly he is high on twinkies and hoho's.