Decriminalize Drugs ?

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: actuarial

Originally posted by: sao123
well... my father has been a pastor for going on 30 years, many people have and still do come to him for counciling. I've seen first hand, almost a quarter centurys worth of peoples whose lives and families were ruined by addiction to drugs and alcohol - overdose, rapes & other sex abuses, jailed for fighting, physical and verbal abuse of family, unwed/unwanted pregnancies, divorces, people losing their jobs/houses, etc.


It might be peoples rights to fuck up their own lives, but ill be damned if I just sit and watch it happen. its fun for individuals, its destructive for families. go sit in an addiction center for a few days, listen to sob story after sob story, and then call me closed minded.

And for every person who has a sob story like this, there are 10 who it didn't affect their lives much at all. Ever been to a college campus?

Also, every problem you described above goes hand in hand with being an alcoholic (which you did mention). Do you also oppose the sale of alcohol, and would be willing to pass a law with long jail sentences for any person who drinks it?

If your in college, you probably have not been using long enough for it to affect you YET... use it long enough and it will eventually affect 100% of all users in some way shape or form.

we've already hashed this subject in other threads... yes, i would support laws opposing the sale of alcohol.

Despite a cultural acceptence that goes back further than recorded history and the fact that we have a gigantic example of the failure of attempting that enshrined in the US Constitution? Good luck with that. :roll: I will never understand the urge of some people to concern themselves with what other people choose to do to themselves be it alcohol, drugs, or any other activity that little groups of nannies find to be offensive.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: kstu

Originally posted by: actuarial

Originally posted by: sao123
well... my father has been a pastor for going on 30 years, many people have and still do come to him for counciling. I've seen first hand, almost a quarter centurys worth of peoples whose lives and families were ruined by addiction to drugs and alcohol - overdose, rapes & other sex abuses, jailed for fighting, physical and verbal abuse of family, unwed/unwanted pregnancies, divorces, people losing their jobs/houses, etc.


It might be peoples rights to fuck up their own lives, but ill be damned if I just sit and watch it happen. its fun for individuals, its destructive for families. go sit in an addiction center for a few days, listen to sob story after sob story, and then call me closed minded.

And for every person who has a sob story like this, there are 10 who it didn't affect their lives much at all. Ever been to a college campus?

Also, every problem you described above goes hand in hand with being an alcoholic (which you did mention). Do you also oppose the sale of alcohol, and would be willing to pass a law with long jail sentences for any person who drinks it?

I guess you aren't too familiar with our friend sao. The answer is yes, to that question and any other that deals with personal freedoms. Oh, except for food. Our boy sao is an eater.

The technical term is borderline diabetic with IGA nephropathy and a family history of thyroid disease, however my health problems are none of your concern.

 

[actuarial]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: actuarial

Originally posted by: sao123
well... my father has been a pastor for going on 30 years, many people have and still do come to him for counciling. I've seen first hand, almost a quarter centurys worth of peoples whose lives and families were ruined by addiction to drugs and alcohol - overdose, rapes & other sex abuses, jailed for fighting, physical and verbal abuse of family, unwed/unwanted pregnancies, divorces, people losing their jobs/houses, etc.


It might be peoples rights to fuck up their own lives, but ill be damned if I just sit and watch it happen. its fun for individuals, its destructive for families. go sit in an addiction center for a few days, listen to sob story after sob story, and then call me closed minded.

And for every person who has a sob story like this, there are 10 who it didn't affect their lives much at all. Ever been to a college campus?

Also, every problem you described above goes hand in hand with being an alcoholic (which you did mention). Do you also oppose the sale of alcohol, and would be willing to pass a law with long jail sentences for any person who drinks it?

If your in college, you probably have not been using long enough for it to affect you YET... use it long enough and it will eventually affect 100% of all users in some way shape or form.

we've already hashed this subject in other threads... yes, i would support laws opposing the sale of alcohol.

I DID go to college, I don't anymore (graduated). And of course it'll eventually affect everyone, but I disagree it is guaranteed to affect you in such a bad way that it should be illegal. If that were the case, fast food should be outlawed too, as eventually it too affects 100% of it's users.

Also, you didn't answer my question... "would be willing to pass a law with long jail sentences for any person who drinks it?"

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: actuarial

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: actuarial

Originally posted by: sao123
well... my father has been a pastor for going on 30 years, many people have and still do come to him for counciling. I've seen first hand, almost a quarter centurys worth of peoples whose lives and families were ruined by addiction to drugs and alcohol - overdose, rapes & other sex abuses, jailed for fighting, physical and verbal abuse of family, unwed/unwanted pregnancies, divorces, people losing their jobs/houses, etc.


It might be peoples rights to fuck up their own lives, but ill be damned if I just sit and watch it happen. its fun for individuals, its destructive for families. go sit in an addiction center for a few days, listen to sob story after sob story, and then call me closed minded.

And for every person who has a sob story like this, there are 10 who it didn't affect their lives much at all. Ever been to a college campus?

Also, every problem you described above goes hand in hand with being an alcoholic (which you did mention). Do you also oppose the sale of alcohol, and would be willing to pass a law with long jail sentences for any person who drinks it?

If your in college, you probably have not been using long enough for it to affect you YET... use it long enough and it will eventually affect 100% of all users in some way shape or form.

we've already hashed this subject in other threads... yes, i would support laws opposing the sale of alcohol.

I DID go to college, I don't anymore (graduated). And of course it'll eventually affect everyone, but I disagree it is guaranteed to affect you in such a bad way that it should be illegal. If that were the case, fast food should be outlawed too, as eventually it too affects 100% of it's users.

Also, you didn't answer my question... "would be willing to pass a law with long jail sentences for any person who drinks it?"

1 year and a $1000 fine should suffice... which i believe is a similar sentence for posession of other illegal drugs, like crack.

 

[allisolm]

The entire country of Portugal has a population not much greater than that of Los Angeles County, CA as well as a basically homogeneous population. What works for that small an area/population will not necessarily work here.

 

[actuarial]

Originally posted by: allisolm
The entire country of Portugal has a population not much greater than that of Los Angeles County, CA as well as a basically homogeneous population. What works for that small an area/population will not necessarily work here.

So you have a system which has proven effective, but because of differences in circumstance you would rather stick with a system you KNOW isn't effective?

 

[Dragula22]

Sao,

You seem to promote prohibition under the premise that prohibition works.

IF there was a simple way to make all recreational drugs (includion etoh) disappear, there would be a decent amount of people to take your side.

But any realist would be aware that such a thing is near impossible.

What people want, other people will provide a service for.

All these addicts you speak of (a minority of the drug abusing population), are in need of TREATMENT. Not criminalization and incarceration. Would you agree?

The only way to abolish drug abuse is education and treatment facilities. Not a drug war.

A vision for drug legalization IMO is, full legalization with hefty taxes, in which these taxes would be used for said education and treatment facilities.

 

[allisolm]

Originally posted by: actuarial

Originally posted by: allisolm
The entire country of Portugal has a population not much greater than that of Los Angeles County, CA as well as a basically homogeneous population. What works for that small an area/population will not necessarily work here.

So you have a system which has proven effective, but because of differences in circumstance you would rather stick with a system you KNOW isn't effective?

Pretty sure I didn't say that.

 

[clamum]

:thumbsup:

 

[actuarial]

Originally posted by: sao123
1 year and a $1000 fine should suffice... which i believe is a similar sentence for posession of other illegal drugs, like crack.

WOW!

What do you think would do more damage to the AVERAGE person's life:
1) Getting drunk once
2) Losing their job, being removed from society and their family for a year

What do you think is worse for a child:
1) Their dad having beers on Sunday
2) Watching their father get incarcerated, taken away in handcuffs, and only seeing him through glass for a year

The reason I ask is that most statistics show that punishment as a form of deterrent doesn't work (Fiance took criminology as her undergrad). It only slightly reduces the chance of someone doing something. Prohibition proved that. Think about if an much larger fraction of the American population was in jail than is already. You actually would support something like that?

You said you've seen people come into an addiction center. Do you think they were better served coming into there, or would it be better if they were forcibly taken away from their family for a year? I would say that there is a MUCH better chance that someone would continue to do drugs if you ruined their life, as opposed to helping them put it back together.

 

[Dragula22]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: actuarial

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: actuarial

Originally posted by: sao123
well... my father has been a pastor for going on 30 years, many people have and still do come to him for counciling. I've seen first hand, almost a quarter centurys worth of peoples whose lives and families were ruined by addiction to drugs and alcohol - overdose, rapes & other sex abuses, jailed for fighting, physical and verbal abuse of family, unwed/unwanted pregnancies, divorces, people losing their jobs/houses, etc.


It might be peoples rights to fuck up their own lives, but ill be damned if I just sit and watch it happen. its fun for individuals, its destructive for families. go sit in an addiction center for a few days, listen to sob story after sob story, and then call me closed minded.

And for every person who has a sob story like this, there are 10 who it didn't affect their lives much at all. Ever been to a college campus?

Also, every problem you described above goes hand in hand with being an alcoholic (which you did mention). Do you also oppose the sale of alcohol, and would be willing to pass a law with long jail sentences for any person who drinks it?

If your in college, you probably have not been using long enough for it to affect you YET... use it long enough and it will eventually affect 100% of all users in some way shape or form.

we've already hashed this subject in other threads... yes, i would support laws opposing the sale of alcohol.

I DID go to college, I don't anymore (graduated). And of course it'll eventually affect everyone, but I disagree it is guaranteed to affect you in such a bad way that it should be illegal. If that were the case, fast food should be outlawed too, as eventually it too affects 100% of it's users.

Also, you didn't answer my question... "would be willing to pass a law with long jail sentences for any person who drinks it?"

1 year and a $1000 fine should suffice... which i believe is a similar sentence for posession of other illegal drugs, like crack.

I'd rather not pay $40,000 in taxes for 1 yr of jail time for a stranger who chose to drink a substance that's been with human civilization for millenias.

You can, but I bet you don't pay that much in taxes anyway.

 

[actuarial]

Originally posted by: allisolm

Originally posted by: actuarial

Originally posted by: allisolm
The entire country of Portugal has a population not much greater than that of Los Angeles County, CA as well as a basically homogeneous population. What works for that small an area/population will not necessarily work here.

So you have a system which has proven effective, but because of differences in circumstance you would rather stick with a system you KNOW isn't effective?

Pretty sure I didn't say that.

No you didn't, but I felt you implied it, which is why I asked the question.

Similarly, I didn't say you said that. I asked you to clear it up for me.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: kstu

Originally posted by: actuarial

Originally posted by: sao123
well... my father has been a pastor for going on 30 years, many people have and still do come to him for counciling. I've seen first hand, almost a quarter centurys worth of peoples whose lives and families were ruined by addiction to drugs and alcohol - overdose, rapes & other sex abuses, jailed for fighting, physical and verbal abuse of family, unwed/unwanted pregnancies, divorces, people losing their jobs/houses, etc.


It might be peoples rights to fuck up their own lives, but ill be damned if I just sit and watch it happen. its fun for individuals, its destructive for families. go sit in an addiction center for a few days, listen to sob story after sob story, and then call me closed minded.

And for every person who has a sob story like this, there are 10 who it didn't affect their lives much at all. Ever been to a college campus?

Also, every problem you described above goes hand in hand with being an alcoholic (which you did mention). Do you also oppose the sale of alcohol, and would be willing to pass a law with long jail sentences for any person who drinks it?

I guess you aren't too familiar with our friend sao. The answer is yes, to that question and any other that deals with personal freedoms. Oh, except for food. Our boy sao is an eater.

The technical term is borderline diabetic with IGA nephropathy and a family history of thyroid disease, however my health problems are none of your concern.

Somehow I'm thinking your "medication" comes in super sizes from the local McDonald's.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: Dragula22
Sao,

You seem to promote prohibition under the premise that prohibition works.

IF there was a simple way to make all recreational drugs (includion etoh) disappear, there would be a decent amount of people to take your side.

But any realist would be aware that such a thing is near impossible.

What people want, other people will provide a service for.

All these addicts you speak of (a minority of the drug abusing population), are in need of TREATMENT. Not criminalization and incarceration. Would you agree?

The only way to abolish drug abuse is education and treatment facilities. Not a drug war.

A vision for drug legalization IMO is, full legalization with hefty taxes, in which these taxes would be used for said education and treatment facilities.

Problem: If you legalize something, then you must give crredibility that is not bad. If something is not bad, you should not need education or treatment facilities for it. If you need treatment facilities, then obviously it should not have been legalized in the first place.

Ultimately legalization of Marijuana for just medication will ultimately result in people abusing the system for prescriptions they dont need. Much like they do now for Pain Killers- just to get high off of Vicodin. People will do anything just to get high.


however...its not the Marijuana itself or the alcohol itself... its intoxication that i oppose.
Given the option to actually write and enforce the law, I might actually legalize alcohol and marijuana, (as even i recognize they have possible legitimate uses - even I enjoy the taste of a good beer) but the punishment for intoxication would be swift and severe, and any crime committed under intoxication results in instant death. Since I cant kill people for intoxication (old testament style), I support prohibition, because it seems to be the only viable alternative.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: allisolm
The entire country of Portugal has a population not much greater than that of Los Angeles County, CA as well as a basically homogeneous population. What works for that small an area/population will not necessarily work here.

How many times have we heard this or something similar? I always thought it was so obvious as to not need mentioning. Portugal's policies in this situation are undoubtedly designed with a small, homogeneous population in mind with the goal of decriminalizing drugs and providing drug addicts with support. If the U.S. were to replicate the policies that work well for Portugal it would undoubtedly fail, as it is neither small nor homogeneous. Hopefully we would be smart enough to tailor our approach to a larger, more varied population with the same goals in mind.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Shadow Conception

Originally posted by: vi edit
I agree with the principal concept, but it's really hard to compare us to Portugal. They don't have Mexico & South America knocking on their southern door and I doubt that their criminal network involved in drug trafficing and distribution in no where as violent and powerful as we have here.

So what would happen if marijuana were decriminalized, or even legalized in the United States? Drug cartels declare war on the U.S. government to prohibit it again..?

No they just start a lobbying firm... buy a few congressmen... and BAM it is illegal again.

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004
Putting pot smokers in jail and paying for their jailing with tax payer money is stupid. PERIOD!

I agree, but so would legalization which would lead to places like Wal-Mart and 7-Eleven carrying them.
The middle ground of decriminalization while not legalizing it is the best option.

 

[KeithTalent]

Originally posted by: sao123
however...its not the Marijuana itself or the alcohol itself... its intoxication that i oppose.
Given the option to actually write and enforce the law, I might actually legalize alcohol and marijuana, (as even i recognize they have possible legitimate uses - even I enjoy the taste of a good beer) but the punishment for intoxication would be swift and severe, and any crime committed under intoxication results in instant death. Since I cant kill people for intoxication (old testament style), I support prohibition, because it seems to be the only viable alternative.

Wow, should we stone heretics and adulterers in a public square too? :laugh:

KT

 

[Rubycon]

It has been argued that politicians favoring legal use for controlled dangerous substances across the board want it as a form of genocide for minorities.

 

[Dragula22]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Dragula22
Sao,

You seem to promote prohibition under the premise that prohibition works.

IF there was a simple way to make all recreational drugs (includion etoh) disappear, there would be a decent amount of people to take your side.

But any realist would be aware that such a thing is near impossible.

What people want, other people will provide a service for.

All these addicts you speak of (a minority of the drug abusing population), are in need of TREATMENT. Not criminalization and incarceration. Would you agree?

The only way to abolish drug abuse is education and treatment facilities. Not a drug war.

A vision for drug legalization IMO is, full legalization with hefty taxes, in which these taxes would be used for said education and treatment facilities.

Problem: If you legalize something, then you must give crredibility that is not bad. If something is not bad, you should not need education or treatment facilities for it. If you need treatment facilities, then obviously it should not have been legalized in the first place.

Ultimately legalization of Marijuana for just medication will ultimately result in people abusing the system for prescriptions they dont need. Much like they do now for Pain Killers- just to get high off of Vicodin. People will do anything just to get high.


however...its not the Marijuana itself or the alcohol itself... its intoxication that i oppose.
Given the option to actually write and enforce the law, I might actually legalize alcohol and marijuana, (as even i recognize they have possible legitimate uses - even I enjoy the taste of a good beer) but the punishment for intoxication would be swift and severe, and any crime committed under intoxication results in instant death. Since I cant kill people for intoxication (old testament style), I support prohibition, because it seems to be the only viable alternative.

Our gov't and laws aren't meant to become a nanny and dictate how we decide to live our lives. Our constitutional mandate is for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We all have different dreams and ideals, but the law is made to protect the virtues of life, freedom, happiness.

There is a problem if what YOU deem immoral is considered the end all be all for EVERYONE ELSE.

Legalization does not at all give the impression that drugs are safe and good. Rather, it would be an admittance that simply outlawing was an inadequate way of control/mitigating the issue, and a complete regulation may provide more power/control to the gov't.

Treatment facilities already exist even though drugs are outlawed. Your argument makes no sense. Treatment facilities need to continue to exist as people are mostly unaware of the power of drugs, due to the current minimal "just say no" education policy. People have no idea what they're getting themselves into.

I don't know why you brought out medical mj, but you bring up current LEGALIZED drugs like vicodin, morphine and talk about their abuse. So how come you're not promoting the prohibition of these drugs?

Here's a news flash: Virtually all drugs are dangerous, addictive, or have permanent side effects. Would you want to outlaw all medication?

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: Rubycon
It has been argued that politicians favoring legal use for controlled dangerous substances across the board want it as a form of genocide for minorities.

The US was largely free of prohibitions against drug usage until the early 1900's and race was a very significant factor in the first prohibitions against drugs.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

Originally posted by: Rubycon
It has been argued that politicians favoring legal use for controlled dangerous substances across the board want it as a form of genocide for minorities.

Darwin will NOT be denied.

 

[zerocool1]

Originally posted by: Lenine

Originally posted by: sash1
i approve, it's a step in the right direction :thumbsup:

or the left

umm ron paul wants to decriminalize marijuana.

 

[ballmode]

people would abuse it here

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: zerocool1

Originally posted by: Lenine

Originally posted by: sash1
i approve, it's a step in the right direction :thumbsup:

or the left

umm ron paul wants to decriminalize marijuana.

Every sensible person wants to legalize marijuana.

We just have to wait for some of these old politicians to die.