Covidiots thread

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esquared

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
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Exceeded my 'free article limit'. Annoying, as I've heard so many contradictory claims about this.

As I understand it, the vaccinated have just as much viral load (in their noses in particular) as the unvaccinated, but they will be in that position for a shorter length of time. So during that time they can spread the virus as easily as the unvaccinated, but that doesn't continue for as long. Is that the consensus view now? Not sure what that means quantitatively, though.
Yeah, too bad because it's a good article.
I did however look for another alternative site and I found this one that speaks to and quotes some of Dr Spencer's Atlantic article.

 
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DaaQ

Golden Member
Dec 8, 2018
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Here is my prediction.
The unvaccinated will soon claim the vaccinated are making them sick and vaccinated people should have special work spaces and shopping hours because the vaccinated get sick and leave their houses or even the vaccine makes the vaccinated get a new strain or something similarly crazy.
I am all but certain this will happen within the next few months.
Like smokers.
 

RY62

Senior member
Mar 13, 2005
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Dont put words in my mouth asshole. I have said nothing at all of what you wrote about going maskless in large groups. I have done nothing but provide links and data.
You? Nothing.

You've wasted a lot of words arguing in circles but have provided not one thing to prove that anything I said was factually inaccurate. If anything you argued full circle from calling out this statement (Don't even start to think you're safe because you're vaccinated ) as "disinformation then went all the way back to basically admitting I was right and that you meant "safer". I understand though. I may be old but one thing the years have taught me is when you resort to name calling, it's a clear admission that you don’t have anything worthwhile to say.
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
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Exceeded my 'free article limit'. Annoying, as I've heard so many contradictory claims about this.

As I understand it, the vaccinated have just as much viral load (in their noses in particular) as the unvaccinated, but they will be in that position for a shorter length of time. So during that time they can spread the virus as easily as the unvaccinated, but that doesn't continue for as long. Is that the consensus view now? Not sure what that means quantitatively, though.
Typically, right-clicking on the link and selecting "open in new private window" bypasses that, because the private window doesn't store cookies to tell them you have been to their site before. At least if Firefox that is pretty reliable way to see these sites.
 
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Feb 4, 2009
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You've wasted a lot of words arguing in circles but have provided not one thing to prove that anything I said was factually inaccurate. If anything you argued full circle from calling out this statement (Don't even start to think you're safe because you're vaccinated ) as "disinformation then went all the way back to basically admitting I was right and that you meant "safer". I understand though. I may be old but one thing the years have taught me is when you resort to name calling, it's a clear admission that you don’t have anything worthwhile to say.

He did with this link that you seem to ignore


0.006% fatality rate. That is remarkably low.
 

esquared

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 8, 2000
24,825
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You've wasted a lot of words arguing in circles but have provided not one thing to prove that anything I said was factually inaccurate. If anything you argued full circle from calling out this statement (Don't even start to think you're safe because you're vaccinated ) as "disinformation then went all the way back to basically admitting I was right and that you meant "safer". I understand though. I may be old but one thing the years have taught me is when you resort to name calling, it's a clear admission that you don’t have anything worthwhile to say.
You haven't posted jackshit except your opinion.
I have backed up my posts with links, articles, data.
You're right and I am wrong? You didn't point anything out until
another member pointed it out and I admitted it was a typo.
You're a moron.
 

esquared

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
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Here's the Atlantic article by Dr. Craig Spencer if someone wants to read but somehow cannot get the link to work.

No, Vaccinated People Are Not ‘Just as Likely’ to Spread the Coronavirus as Unvaccinated People
This has become a common refrain among the cautious—and it’s wrong.
By Craig Spencer
A vaccine umbrella surrounded by green dots

Katie Martin / The Atlantic
September 23, 2021

About the author: Craig Spencer is an emergency-medicine physician and director of global health in emergency medicine at New York Presbyterian/Columbia University Medical Center.
For many fully vaccinated Americans, the Delta surge spoiled what should’ve been a glorious summer. Those who had cast their masks aside months ago were asked to dust them off. Many are still taking no chances. Some have even returned to all the same precautions they took before getting their shots, including avoiding the company of other fully vaccinated people.

Among this last group, a common refrain I’ve heard to justify their renewed vigilance is that “vaccinated people are just as likely to spread the coronavirus.”

This misunderstanding, born out of confusing statements from public-health authorities and misleading media headlines, is a shame. It is resulting in unnecessary fear among vaccinated people, all the while undermining the public’s understanding of the importance—and effectiveness—of getting vaccinated.

So let me make one thing clear: Vaccinated people are not as likely to spread the coronavirus as the unvaccinated. Even in the United States, where more than half of the population is fully vaccinated, the unvaccinated are responsible for the overwhelming majority of transmission.

Read: ‘Post-vax COVID’ is a new disease

I understand why people are confused. In April, after months of public-health experts cautiously promoting the merits of vaccination, CDC Director Rochelle Walensky cited new real-world data of the shots’ effectiveness to jubilantly proclaim that “vaccinated people do not carry the virus.” The CDC later walked back her comment, but headlines such as “It’s Official: Vaccinated People Don’t Transmit COVID-19” had already given many the impression that in addition to their remarkable protection against infection with the coronavirus, the shots also prevented them from passing the illness on to others.

Scientists and researchers objected, warning that there weren’t enough data to support such a proclamation. Their concerns were prescient. As Delta first took hold early this summer and then quickly spread, our collective relief turned into dejection.

An outbreak in Provincetown, Massachusetts—in which 74 percent of the 469 cases were in the fully vaccinated—forced the CDC to update its mask guidance and issue a sad and sobering warning: Vaccinated people infected with the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant can be just as contagious as unvaccinated people.

In the aftermath of the Provincetown announcement, many who had gotten their shots were confused about what the news meant for them, especially when headlines seemed to imply that vaccinated individuals are as likely to contract and transmit COVID-19 as the unvaccinated. But this framing missed the single most important factor in spreading the coronavirus: To spread the coronavirus, you have to have the coronavirus. And vaccinated people are far less likely to have the coronavirus—period. If this was mentioned at all, it was treated as an afterthought.

Despite concern about waning immunity, vaccines provide the best protection against infection. And if someone isn’t infected, they can’t spread the coronavirus. It’s truly that simple. Additionally, for those instances of a vaccinated person getting a breakthrough case, yes, they can be as infectious as an unvaccinated person. But they are likely contagious for a shorter period of time when compared with the unvaccinated, and they may harbor less infectious virus overall.

That’s why getting more people their shots is crucial for controlling the spread of the coronavirus: Every vaccinated person helps limit the virus’s ability to hide, replicate, and propagate.

Among the unvaccinated, the virus travels unhindered on a highway with multiple off-ramps and refueling stations. In the vaccinated, it gets lost in a maze of dead-end streets and cul-de-sacs. Every so often, it pieces together an escape route, but in most scenarios, it finds itself cut off, and its journey ends. It can go no further.

This is borne out by recent data from New York City that show that more than 96 percent of cases are among the unvaccinated. Only 0.33 percent of fully vaccinated New Yorkers have been diagnosed with COVID-19.

To highlight what this means in the real world, imagine two weddings with 100 guests, one where everyone is unvaccinated and another where all the guests are vaccinated.

In the unvaccinated wedding group, the likelihood that at least one of the guests has COVID-19 is high. Similarly, everyone present is more susceptible, and the virus will likely infect many others, given the increased transmissibility of the Delta variant.

At the wedding with exclusively vaccinated attendees, however, the likelihood that anyone present has COVID-19 is minuscule. Even if someone present is infected, the likelihood that the other guests will contract the virus is similarly low, given the protection afforded by their shots.

This is exactly why vaccine mandates are so important—and why going to events that exclude unvaccinated people is much, much safer than those that are open to all. Everyone knows that the vaccines help protect each individual who gets their shots. But when more people get vaccinated, this helps keep everyone else (including children and others ineligible for vaccination) safe as well.

It’s worth acknowledging that even though the vaccines are our best protection—and still do what we need them to do very well—they’re not perfect. Vaccinated individuals can experience breakthrough infections, and when they do, they can potentially infect others. Some may also develop long COVID, although thankfully the shots dramatically lower this risk too. These reasons are exactly why, in many circumstances, mitigation measures such as masking and mandates still make sense to help limit the spread, even for the vaccinated.

As an emergency-medicine physician, I’ve seen firsthand the vaccines’ dramatic role in reducing severe outcomes from a virus that flooded my emergency room early in the pandemic. And as a member of one of the first groups vaccinated in the rollout, I was kept safe by the shots while I cared for patients, and they prevented me from bringing the virus home to my family.

Craig Spencer: Relax, America: the vaccines are still working

But ultimately, a COVID-19 diagnosis in someone close to me is what highlighted why the assertion that the vaccinated are as likely to spread the coronavirus as the unvaccinated is so wrong.

Recently my cousin contacted me when her daughter tested positive for COVID-19. Her daughter fell ill just weeks before her 12th birthday, when she would’ve been eligible for a vaccine. My fully vaccinated cousin spent nearly every moment at her side—always indoors and usually unmasked—yet never fell ill herself.

“The vaccine seems to be working. It’s magic!” she texted me. Before getting her shots, she would have almost certainly been infected, and likely passed it on to others. But the vaccine broke the chain of transmission. My cousin never spread her daughter’s COVID-19 to anyone because she never caught it.


Craig Spencer is an emergency-medicine physician and director of global health in emergency medicine at New York Presbyterian/Columbia University Medical Center.
 

rmacd02

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Nov 24, 2015
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Thanks for posting this, esquared. Unfortunately, those who need to read this, will most likely disregard it as "fake news"

I still find it hard to believe that so many have politicized a health crisis/pandemic.

Just maybe, it might convince some of those who are on the fence.
 
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pmv

Lifer
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The problem is just the confused message that's been put out about the question. I guess largely because of the emergence of Delta and becaue of the vaccines not being as effective as was originally hoped.

I wouldn't argue that that means people shouldn't get vaccinated - as far as I'm concerned it's worth doing whatever one can to try and get this nightmare under control. If they call me for a 'booster' shot I'll go get it immediately. But to me it says that being vaccinated doesn't mean you can completely let your guard down and drop all other precautions - especially if you are elderly or associate with people who are vulnerable in some way.

e.g.


The key to herd immunity is that, even if a person becomes infected, there are too few susceptible hosts around to maintain transmission — those who have been vaccinated or have already had the infection cannot contract and spread the virus. The COVID-19 vaccines developed by Moderna and Pfizer–BioNTech, for example, are extremely effective at preventing symptomatic disease, but it is still unclear whether they protect people from becoming infected, or from spreading the virus to others. That poses a problem for herd immunity.


ir Andrew Pollard, head of the Oxford Vaccine Group, told British lawmakers Tuesday that as Covid vaccines did not stop the spread of the virus entirely — with vaccinated people still able to be infected and transmit the virus — the idea of achieving herd immunity was “mythical.”

“I think we are in a situation here with this current variant where herd immunity is not a possibility because it still infects vaccinated individuals,” said Pollard, one of the lead researchers in the creation of the AstraZeneca-University of Oxford vaccine.


It is already known that Sars-CoV-2 can continue to spread among partially-vaccinated individuals – although the risk is much lower than in unvaccinated people – but in recent weeks, new information has appeared which suggests that Delta is still capable of being transmitted by those who have had both doses. Doctors at Clalit Health Services, Israel’s largest health care organisation, found that around half of adults infected in a new outbreak of Delta had been fully inoculated with the Pfizer vaccine. This news has prompted Israel to re-impose an indoor mask requirement and reassess its Covid-19 regulations.
 

fskimospy

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Mar 10, 2006
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For Trump, it's a competition between fear of the humiliation of losing and wanting more glory. Both stem directly from his narcissism. We'll see which wins out.
Related to this - it’s only one poll but still. It should also be noted that it’s a poll on behalf of a non-Trump superpac, but unless they are literally just making numbers up this would indicate significant decline.

 

RY62

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Mar 13, 2005
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He did with this link that you seem to ignore


0.006% fatality rate. That is remarkably low.
Which of my statements does that link disprove? I'm saying that breakthrough cases and fatalities are rising. That link proves my point that we, the vaccinated, are not safe. Safer, yes but safe, no.

Thirty seven fully vaccinated deaths in one week is, as you say, a remarkably low percentage but that number is up from the 23 fully vaccinated deaths in the previous week. That's a 60% increase in fully vaccinated deaths in one week. I still say be careful; it's not time to let our guard down just because we're vaccinated.
 

fskimospy

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Which of my statements does that link disprove? I'm saying that breakthrough cases and fatalities are rising. That link proves my point that we, the vaccinated, are not safe. Safer, yes but safe, no.

Thirty seven fully vaccinated deaths in one week is, as you say, a remarkably low percentage but that number is up from the 23 fully vaccinated deaths in the previous week. That's a 60% increase in fully vaccinated deaths in one week. I still say be careful; it's not time to let our guard down just because we're vaccinated.
I don’t agree - vaccinated people should return to life as normal. The evidence suggests that vaccinated people have an approximate risk profile similar to that of the flu, so they should behave similarly to how they did in their entire life before covid, as the flu existed in that world.
 
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RY62

Senior member
Mar 13, 2005
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You haven't posted jackshit except your opinion.
I have backed up my posts with links, articles, data.
You're right and I am wrong? You didn't point anything out until
another member pointed it out and I admitted it was a typo.
You're a moron.

This is my original post which you called bullshit and disinformation. -

I've noticed that as well. Like this story from Michigan where a fully vaxxed couple (with undisclosed underlying conditions) died within a minute of each other. - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/coronavirus-vaccine-couple-death-b1928404.html

Get vaccinated but, vaccinated or not, be careful, wear a mask and avoid close contact whenever possible. Don't even start to think you're safe because you're vaccinated and only around vaccinated people. Vaccinated people are getting infected and spreading it too.


If you think you've actually proven any of that to be false, I can only give you a virtual cookie and say ok, you're right. Feel better now? I'm the moron? Lol
 

RY62

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Mar 13, 2005
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I don’t agree - vaccinated people should return to life as normal. The evidence suggests that vaccinated people have an approximate risk profile similar to that of the flu, so they should behave similarly to how they did in their entire life before covid, as the flu existed in that world.

That's a valid opinion. I, personally, am in the older, higher risk category so I may be looking at things from a bit of a different angle.
 

Hail The Brain Slug

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Oct 10, 2005
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This is my original post which you called bullshit and disinformation. -

I've noticed that as well. Like this story from Michigan where a fully vaxxed couple (with undisclosed underlying conditions) died within a minute of each other. - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/coronavirus-vaccine-couple-death-b1928404.html

Get vaccinated but, vaccinated or not, be careful, wear a mask and avoid close contact whenever possible. Don't even start to think you're safe because you're vaccinated and only around vaccinated people. Vaccinated people are getting infected and spreading it too.


If you think you've actually proven any of that to be false, I can only give you a virtual cookie and say ok, you're right. Feel better now? I'm the moron? Lol

Your words imply risk and relative safety of being unvaccinated and vaccinated are similar. They are not.

Your words are basically fear mongering. Stay scared, vaccinated people!
 

fskimospy

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Mar 10, 2006
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That's a valid opinion. I, personally, am in the older, higher risk category so I may be looking at things from a bit of a different angle.
I genuinely don’t know the answer to this question. Are older vaccinated people at higher risk from covid death than they are from the flu?
 

RY62

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Mar 13, 2005
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Your words imply risk and relative safety of being unvaccinated and vaccinated are similar. They are not.

Your words are basically fear mongering. Stay scared, vaccinated people!

I didn't mean to imply anything like that. I meant exactly what I said. The vaccine efficacies are waning. Breakthrough case, hospitalizations and deaths are rising. No need to be afraid but no need to be stupid either. I just don't think it's a good time to let my guard down fully.
 

RY62

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Mar 13, 2005
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I genuinely don’t know the answer to this question. Are older vaccinated people at higher risk from covid death than they are from the flu?
I don't know the answer to that question either but I do know that, so far, we've proven to be far more vulnerable to covid than younger folks are.
 

Hail The Brain Slug

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Oct 10, 2005
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I didn't mean to imply anything like that. I meant exactly what I said. The vaccine efficacies are waning. Breakthrough case, hospitalizations and deaths are rising. No need to be afraid but no need to be stupid either. I just don't think it's a good time to let my guard down fully.

"Don't even start to think you're safe" is a very poor way to convey your message.
 
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Hail The Brain Slug

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He did with this link that you seem to ignore


0.006% fatality rate. That is remarkably low.

Seems to be on par with the 2019-2020 flu season fatality rate for people over 65. (0.007%).

Edit: I am dumb. It's 0.7% for 65+ demographic for 2019-2020 flu season. 100x higher than that covid fatality rate.

Overall fatality rate based on CDC estimates for 2019-2020 flu season is 0.056%, still nearly 10x higher than that covid fatality rate.

Does anyone know how the 0.006% figure is calculated? My figures are just deaths/cases from flu
 
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dullard

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May 21, 2001
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I genuinely don’t know the answer to this question. Are older vaccinated people at higher risk from covid death than they are from the flu?
Very rough estimates here, since flu death rates vary so much over time.
  • Roughly 36,000 flu deaths per year in the US on average. (Varied from 12,000 to 61,000 over the last decade).
  • Roughly 75% of flu deaths are in the >65 population. That leaves roughly 27,000 flu deaths in the >65 category on average in the US
  • Covid vaccinated breakthrough deaths so far are 3,882 in the >65 age group in the US. But that only covers about half of the year since people have been vaccinated in large quantities. Double that to roughly 7800 to estimate a full year.
  • So we could say that flu deaths in the elderly are higher than vaccinated Covid deaths in the elderly. With one major condition: this assumes Covid immunity lasts and/or boosters are taken in sufficient quantities in the future.
Of course, if a person is in a known higher risk category, then that person's individual risk of Covid breakthough death may be higher than the flu death risk. This is because the data above is just averages and not specific for any one person.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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Which of my statements does that link disprove? I'm saying that breakthrough cases and fatalities are rising. That link proves my point that we, the vaccinated, are not safe. Safer, yes but safe, no.

Thirty seven fully vaccinated deaths in one week is, as you say, a remarkably low percentage but that number is up from the 23 fully vaccinated deaths in the previous week. That's a 60% increase in fully vaccinated deaths in one week. I still say be careful; it's not time to let our guard down just because we're vaccinated.

you are dancing around the issue, if it was one death last week and two deaths this week you’d say it was a 100% increase.
you are not being realistic about the numbers. From release the vaccines stated 80/94/95% effectiveness of preventing severe disease. They never stated 100% protection. The vaccines work as advertised even better than advertised.
 

fskimospy

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Mar 10, 2006
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Very rough estimates here, since flu death rates vary so much over time.
  • Roughly 36,000 flu deaths per year in the US on average. (Varied from 12,000 to 61,000 over the last decade).
  • Roughly 75% of flu deaths are in the >65 population. That leaves roughly 27,000 flu deaths in the >65 category on average in the US
  • Covid vaccinated breakthrough deaths so far are 3,882 in the >65 age group in the US. But that only covers about half of the year since people have been vaccinated in large quantities. Double that to roughly 7800 to estimate a full year.
  • So we could say that flu deaths in the elderly are higher than vaccinated Covid deaths in the elderly. With one major condition: this assumes Covid immunity lasts and/or boosters are taken in sufficient quantities in the future.
Of course, if a person is in a known higher risk category, then that person's individual risk of Covid breakthough death may be higher than the flu death risk. This is because the data above is just averages and not specific for any one person.
This seems to broadly reinforce the idea that vaccinated people who aren’t in contact with at risk populations should resume life as normal.
 

dullard

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May 21, 2001
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This seems to broadly reinforce the idea that vaccinated people who aren’t in contact with at risk populations should resume life as normal.
I only have a small anecdote (which we all know is not representative of the population as a whole). But, all the elderly >65 people that I interact with personally are helping raise kids who are not vaccinated. The reasons differ, but it is from lack of daycare, school Covid transmission, etc. So, at least in my small subset, they should not yet return to life as normal. While they themselves might be fine with a breakthrough case, and the kids are likely to be fine with Covid, it just continues the massive spread of the disease through the world.

In my opinion, stopping the disease is more important than whether or not elderly people's risk is higher or lower than the flu.

As soon as the kids are vaccinated (quite soon) then I'll agree with you. Until then, I have to disagree. It is just a bit too soon.