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Continuing Adventures of The Bush Junta: Rumsfeld in trouble for remarks again

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etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
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BBD, you should know better than that, but since you are being dense today I'll refine the question.

In Afghanistan and the Iraqi wars, what exactly have "we" destroyed?
 

AnImuS

Senior member
Sep 28, 2001
939
0
0
Originally posted by: Alistar7
I guess the Bush Bashers just doesn't know how to stop and determine the facts before they make up their mind.......
That would take too much effort

:D
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: HJD1
Originally posted by: etech
HJD1,

What exactly have "we" destroyed?

All that "we" have.

Try not to be cute and just answer the question.

Thank you.
I simply propose. It is for you, if you wish, to dispose. "We as a people" are "We as a species" as defined in the story that followed my statement. We as a people find destruction as the only viable means to achieve our various agenda when non destructive means fail. A species with such a philosophy will surely perish. A superior species such as ourselves ought to know better.

You chose to use "Try not to be cute and just answer the question" which I feel comes from one's Critical Parent Ego State. I answer from my Adult Ego and hope for a response in kind. If this is not to be forth comming simply ignore me. I am nothing and posess nothing but an opinion. Right or wrong, simple or complex it is nothing too.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
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BBD, you should know better than that, but since you are being dense today I'll refine the question.

In Afghanistan and the Iraqi wars, what exactly have "we" destroyed?
Your clarification was certainly necessary . . . unlike the personal attack. I would say we've probably killed fewer than 5K innocent civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq. But on balance neither place is any worse or better of than before US intervention.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
HJD1
I simply propose. It is for you, if you wish, to dispose. "We as a people" are "We as a species" as defined in the story that followed my statement. We as a people find destruction as the only viable means to achieve our various agenda when non destructive means fail. A species with such a philosophy will surely perish. A superior species such as ourselves ought to know better.
In other words, you cannot answer the question. It really didn't take so many words to just admit that.

BaliBabyDoc
Your clarification was certainly necessary . . . unlike the personal attack. I would say we've probably killed fewer than 5K innocent civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq. But on balance neither place is any worse or better of than before US intervention.
The thread is about the current Bush administration. I know the tendency of some on this board to go back to before 1776 and list every mistake and fault of the US in their zeal. I didn't think that you would need the clarification.
As to what state the two countrys are in now vs. being under their former regimes. Give it some time and let's have this discussion again. The main positive is that conditions can now improve, under Saddam or the Taliban, there didn't seem to be even that hope.

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Etech,
In other words, you cannot answer the question. It really didn't take so many words to just admit that.

***************

In the grander sense I have no idea. Perhaps the greatest mind to exist was killed... or the father of the needest child. I cannot know this nor any of tomorrow. But, I do know some would have died either way by either hand and those who died by either hand should not have.

We are there Iraq and Afghanistan to install a government consistent with our belief of freedom. To this I'd only quote the following:

Tzu-chang asked Confucius: ?How should men be governed??
The Master said: ?He who would govern men must honour the five graces, spurn the four vices.?
Tzu-chang said: ?What are the five graces??
The Master said: ?A gentleman is kind, but not wasteful; he burdens, but does not embitter; he is covetous, not sordid; high-minded, not proud; he inspires awe, and not fear.?
Tzu-chang said: ?What is meant by kindness without waste??
The Master said: ?To further what furthers the people, is not that kindness without waste? If burdens be sorted to strength, who will grumble? To covet love and win love, is that sordid? Few or many, small or great, all is one to a gentleman: he dare not slight any man. Is not this to be high-minded and not proud? A gentleman straightens his robe and settles his face. He is stern, and men look up to him with dread. Is not this to inspire awe, and not fear??
Tzu-chang said: ?What are the four vices??
The Master said: ?To leave untaught and then kill is cruelty: to ask full tale without warning is tyranny: to give careless orders, and be strict when the day comes is robbery: to be stingy in rewarding men is littleness.?
The Master said: ?A man who is blind to doom can be no gentleman. Without a knowledge of courtesy we must want foothold. Without a knowledge of words there is no understanding men.?

Thanks for the opportunity.


 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I wish I got it HJ, those guys are way over my head.
What I don't get is why some would prefer to place the work upon the hammer and use the anvil to bang out the shape.

 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,054
0
71
I almost posted on this subject a couple of days ago, but decided to weigh the issues before I made a statement.

FIRST - I find it to be rather cavaleir of Rummy to write off the fact that we are taking casualties in Iraq by equating it
with a Crime statistic in our country, or the chances of it being an accident on the road.
They are in a combat zone in Iraq - not in a getto in the U.S. or a Freeway in Texas.
They were put there on purpose, for a purpose. A casualty there is a miliraty personel loss.

SECOND - If we had 100,000+ armed soldiers patroling the streets of Washington D.C. 24 hours a day how high
would the crime rate be with orders to use deadly force when confronted - if necessary.
The wild card here is if that action would trigger a Kent State situation, quell the violence,
or ignite an uprising of the citizens who oppose that level of domination - quite like Baghdad.

I find Rumbo to be just too cutesy arrogant for the position of trust he pretends from.
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
7,218
0
0
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
I almost posted on this subject a couple of days ago, but decided to weigh the issues before I made a statement.

FIRST - I find it to be rather cavaleir of Rummy to write off the fact that we are taking casualties in Iraq by equating it
with a Crime statistic in our country, or the chances of it being an accident on the road.
They are in a combat zone in Iraq - not in a getto in the U.S. or a Freeway in Texas.
They were put there on purpose, for a purpose. A casualty there is a miliraty personel loss.

SECOND - If we had 100,000+ armed soldiers patroling the streets of Washington D.C. 24 hours a day how high
would the crime rate be with orders to use deadly force when confronted - if necessary.
The wild card here is if that action would trigger a Kent State situation, quell the violence,
or ignite an uprising of the citizens who oppose that level of domination - quite like Baghdad.

I find Rumbo to be just too cutesy arrogant for the position of trust he pretends from.

Then be sure and vote this administration out of office in 2004. If you (and others of like mind) don't, it will get worse before it getts better.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
article
Mayor Anthony A. Williams and Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton declared their own war yesterday against the country's top defense official.
Wouldn't it be a better use of their time to try and find ways to lower the poverty and murder rates in the city they are responsible for?
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: etech
article
Mayor Anthony A. Williams and Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton declared their own war yesterday against the country's top defense official.
Wouldn't it be a better use of their time to try and find ways to lower the poverty and murder rates in the city they are responsible for?
Are you kidding? ;) This is the same city run by a congressionally-mandated control board because of the adventures of such "illustrious" politicians as Marion Barry, et. al. They, meaning the local political status-quo, "never" blame anyone else for their own inherent shortcomings. ;)
 

mastertech01

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Nov 13, 1999
11,631
0
76
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
I almost posted on this subject a couple of days ago, but decided to weigh the issues before I made a statement.

FIRST - I find it to be rather cavaleir of Rummy to write off the fact that we are taking casualties in Iraq by equating it
with a Crime statistic in our country, or the chances of it being an accident on the road.
They are in a combat zone in Iraq - not in a getto in the U.S. or a Freeway in Texas.
They were put there on purpose, for a purpose. A casualty there is a miliraty personel loss.

SECOND - If we had 100,000+ armed soldiers patroling the streets of Washington D.C. 24 hours a day how high
would the crime rate be with orders to use deadly force when confronted - if necessary.
The wild card here is if that action would trigger a Kent State situation, quell the violence,
or ignite an uprising of the citizens who oppose that level of domination - quite like Baghdad.

I find Rumbo to be just too cutesy arrogant for the position of trust he pretends from.
How do you figure 100000+ soldiers patrolling DC as a fair comparison... try 100000+ soldiers patrolling the state of California as a more fair comparison and you would find they are not nearly large enough to do the job without treating the people like SH regime did. (And how many DC citizens carry all sorts of military weaponry openly or even possess them in any form?) It is the responsibility of the Iraqi people to "get a grip" and HELP make thier dream of freedom come to be. We can only assist them, not hold each persons hand like children on welfare.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,054
0
71
Comparing Iraq to California, at least in my eyes, is done by this Administration to place California in a bad light
as BushBaby did not carry the state in the 2000 Election Fraud. Why don't they say 'About 1/2 the size of Texas',
Slightly smaller that Montana, or compare it to a foriegn country as in 'Slightly bigger than Sweden', or ever 'A little
larger than Spain' - all of which is true. (as is California being 'Slighty" smaller than Iraq.)
I just don't think it's appropriate to keep saying Iraq and California in the same word grouping,
it's just like they were doing using 'Iraq' and 'Al Queda' together to fabricate a perception of a link.
Next thing you know we'll be told that along with the Al Queda Hi-Jackers there were suspected
Californians on the airplanes of 911 - lots of ignorant people are convinced that there were Iraqi on the planes,
since Bush, with help from Fox and Limbaugh have made belivers if the blind faithful.

I used the 100,000+ number, as we have approximately 150,000 troops in Iraq, more than half in the region around
Baghdad, which places between 75,000 to 100,000 in the region at anytime within a weeks timeframe, as the dynamics
are changing, and re-deployment into surrounding area and re-convening to base camps place the totals in a flux.

We couldn't force peace in South Vietnam with a presence fo 500,000+ in our highest deployments, and it's not as
big as Iraq, but does offer easier places to hide. It's harder to hide in the barren desert regions to the south and to
the west of Baghdad.

You don't need to tell me anything about the situation, I know more than you suspect.
 

mastertech01

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Nov 13, 1999
11,631
0
76
Comparing Iraq to California, at least in my eyes, is done by this Administration to place California in a bad light as BushBaby did not carry the state in the 2000 Election Fraud
This statement alone has to be one the most rediculous spins I have read to date on this forum.. :disgust:
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: mastertech01
Comparing Iraq to California, at least in my eyes, is done by this Administration to place California in a bad light as BushBaby did not carry the state in the 2000 Election Fraud
This statement alone has to be one the most rediculous spins I have read to date on this forum.. :disgust:
Their desperation is starting to show.

 

tnitsuj

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
5,446
0
76
Originally posted by: burnedout
Originally posted by: etech
article
Mayor Anthony A. Williams and Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton declared their own war yesterday against the country's top defense official.
Wouldn't it be a better use of their time to try and find ways to lower the poverty and murder rates in the city they are responsible for?
Are you kidding? ;) This is the same city run by a congressionally-mandated control board because of the adventures of such "illustrious" politicians as Marion Barry, et. al. They, meaning the local political status-quo, "never" blame anyone else for their own inherent shortcomings. ;)

The control board is long gone.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Comparing Iraq to California, at least in my eyes, is done by this Administration to place California in a bad light as BushBaby did not carry the state in the 2000 Election Fraud. Why don't they say 'About 1/2 the size of Texas', Slightly smaller that Montana, or compare it to a foriegn country as in 'Slightly bigger than Sweden', or ever 'A little larger than Spain' - all of which is true. (as is California being 'Slighty" smaller than Iraq.)
Probably because the international, geographical aptitude of the average American is about on par with that of Mr. Stay-Puft Marshmellow Man. Why not give them something they can relate to? For many years, "West Germany" was equated in size to the state of Oregon.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: tnitsuj
Originally posted by: burnedout
Originally posted by: etech
article
Mayor Anthony A. Williams and Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton declared their own war yesterday against the country's top defense official.
Wouldn't it be a better use of their time to try and find ways to lower the poverty and murder rates in the city they are responsible for?
Are you kidding? ;) This is the same city run by a congressionally-mandated control board because of the adventures of such "illustrious" politicians as Marion Barry, et. al. They, meaning the local political status-quo, "never" blame anyone else for their own inherent shortcomings. ;)

The control board is long gone.
Correct and my mistake. Should have substituted "ran" for "run". The control board was "only" applicable for six years. Marion sez hey!
 

mastertech01

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Nov 13, 1999
11,631
0
76
Originally posted by: burnedout
Comparing Iraq to California, at least in my eyes, is done by this Administration to place California in a bad light as BushBaby did not carry the state in the 2000 Election Fraud. Why don't they say 'About 1/2 the size of Texas', Slightly smaller that Montana, or compare it to a foriegn country as in 'Slightly bigger than Sweden', or ever 'A little larger than Spain' - all of which is true. (as is California being 'Slighty" smaller than Iraq.)
Probably because the international, geographical aptitude of the average American is about on par with that of Mr. Stay-Puft Marshmellow Man. Why not give them something they can relate to? For many years, "West Germany" was equated in size to the state of Oregon.

The old Army headstart program used to tell the soldiers that West Germany was about the size of Texas. It was primarily an example to identify the differences in transportation geography. We Americans are used to a long trip for vacation being thousands of miles, where in Germany it was considered a couple hundred miles. They could keep a car many more years due to thier limited car miles traveled, especially with a huge mass transit system. They have a great train system, something Americans have neglected to take advantage of for many years.
 

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