CNN is reporting that North Korea has tested a Nuke

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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
45,896
32,695
136
Originally posted by: beyoku
1. What did North Korea "want" in exchange for dropping nukes.
2. Why do we care about South Korea getting bombed, who cares about their lives. We can "Fight them there instead of here" - the same way we are doing in Iraq, fighting terrorists there instead of here, who cares about Iraqi lives. :confused:
3. Thats why Im saving up my money and moving to Africa soon. They will never get attacked. But you have to watch out for killer mosquitos.

1. free money/oil-energy/food/materials etc and a non-agression pact
2. See WWII and Korean War
3. Yes, Africa...no war/disease/poverty/genocide/crime there.....good luck with that
 

PhoenixOrion

Diamond Member
May 4, 2004
4,312
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1. - lifting of economic sanctions and food aid
2. - its the 8th largest economy in the world; ken and barbie look cool with samsung phones, lg lcd tv, etc. not to mention one of the largest ship building industries in the world.
3. - you also have to watch out for rival warlords.
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
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0
Does anyone think that they might use it? I mean..... if they nuke S Korea or Japan, they WILL get their asses burned off the face of the earth by much higher quality US nukes.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
45,896
32,695
136
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Does anyone think that they might use it? I mean..... if they nuke S Korea or Japan, they WILL get their asses burned off the face of the earth by much higher quality US nukes.

Extremely unlikely. Kim Jong Il would have to be a complete and utter fool if he thought the US would hesitate to blow the entire country off the map if they struck SK or Japan. It would take us about 30 minutes to do the whole job. Just long enough to call Russia-China and say "This isn't for you, but stay the fvck out of our way".
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,248
196
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Originally posted by: jman19
Originally posted by: jrenz
Korean news headlines... "NUCLEAR LAUNCH DETECTED"

Looks like N Korea rushed.

Yeah, NK teched up a lot faster than we expected :(

Not really, there was a former General / Military Analyist on CNN last night that said we thought NK has had nukes for as many as a few years, this just confirmation.

He also pointed out that they have nukes, but they are still a few years from having weaponized versions.

 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,248
196
106
Originally posted by: firewall
Did the mods merge the two threads on this topic? :confused:


Looks like it, I think I beat the other thread by a few secs, not that it really mattered either way.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: International Machine Consortium
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
So much for the UN putting there foot down!! lol

Bush forces NK to do it and then the UN has to fix it? This is another Bush blunder. AXISS OF EEEEVEEEEELLLL..... THE U.S. WILL ATTACK YOU!
North Korea: Well, we'd better get hot on completing a bomb or the U.S. is gonna attack us too.
How could they not get that message? How would you have interpreted Bush's threats? As olive branches?

YES! I KNEW I could find it!

Someone tarding up the "Blame Bush! Blame Bush!"

Thanks, you didnt disappoint!
 

catnap1972

Platinum Member
Aug 10, 2000
2,607
0
76
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: International Machine Consortium
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
So much for the UN putting there foot down!! lol

Bush forces NK to do it and then the UN has to fix it? This is another Bush blunder. AXISS OF EEEEVEEEEELLLL..... THE U.S. WILL ATTACK YOU!
North Korea: Well, we'd better get hot on completing a bomb or the U.S. is gonna attack us too.
How could they not get that message? How would you have interpreted Bush's threats? As olive branches?

YES! I KNEW I could find it!

Someone tarding up the "Blame Bush! Blame Bush!"

Thanks, you didnt disappoint!

No no no, everyone knows this was Clinton's fault--whipped out the willie and the whole planet went straight to hell.

TEH STAINED BLUE DRESS STRIKES AGAIN!!!!
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
66
91
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: International Machine Consortium
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
So much for the UN putting there foot down!! lol

Bush forces NK to do it and then the UN has to fix it? This is another Bush blunder. AXISS OF EEEEVEEEEELLLL..... THE U.S. WILL ATTACK YOU!
North Korea: Well, we'd better get hot on completing a bomb or the U.S. is gonna attack us too.
How could they not get that message? How would you have interpreted Bush's threats? As olive branches?

YES! I KNEW I could find it!

Someone tarding up the "Blame Bush! Blame Bush!"

Thanks, you didnt disappoint!


In all fairnes, NK was specifically threatening to do exactly what they have now done in the spring of 2003, and President Bush called it a "diplomatic matter" and declined to intervene, since he was already focused on starting a war in Iraq for pre-ordained political reasons. He has consistently made it clear (and did so again today) that he's not willing to act against NK, even if they do exactly what he falsely accused Saddam Hussein's administration of doing.
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,248
196
106
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: International Machine Consortium
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
So much for the UN putting there foot down!! lol

Bush forces NK to do it and then the UN has to fix it? This is another Bush blunder. AXISS OF EEEEVEEEEELLLL..... THE U.S. WILL ATTACK YOU!
North Korea: Well, we'd better get hot on completing a bomb or the U.S. is gonna attack us too.
How could they not get that message? How would you have interpreted Bush's threats? As olive branches?

YES! I KNEW I could find it!

Someone tarding up the "Blame Bush! Blame Bush!"

Thanks, you didnt disappoint!


Borrowed from the other thread ....


Originally posted by: ayabe
Well FNC and the gang are certainly trying their hardest to pin this on Clinton, but the fact is, W labeled them part of the Axis of Evil, refuses to talk with them, and generally made them feel as if we could attack them at any time.

This is why they went ahead with their nuclear program.

Despite what some are saying, we have no military option, NK has over 10,000 artillery pieces buried in the mountains, pointed at Seoul. We could never hope take them out in a timely fashion before the city was leveled. If there was action, 1 million NK troops coming over the border would not be in a 'killing zone', they would steamroll the DMZ and our 40,000+/- troops there would be dead.

Here's a timeline for the "It's Clinton's fault" crowd.

PRESIDENT REAGAN

Mid-1980s: First signs of North Korea nuclear program detected by US intelligence.

1986: North Korea produces plutonium in reactor.
PRESIDENT GEORGE H. W. BUSH

1991: US begins talks with North Korea to end to nuclear program.

1992: North Korea has separated an estimated 0-10kg of weapons-grade plutonium, enough for 1 to 2 bombs.
PRESIDENT CLINTON

1993: North Korea announces it will leave nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty; US prepares to attack nuclear sites.

1994: Clinton Administration reaches Agreed Framework, North Korea freezes nuclear production for the next eight years.

August 1998: North Korea tests medium-range ?Taep?o-dong-1? missile.

December 1998: North Korea warns they will test another missile, but pressure from US dissuades them.

September 1999: Pyongyang agrees to long-range missile moratorium.

October 2000: Secretary of State Madeleine Albright is highest ranking US official to ever meet with Kim Jong Il.
PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH

March 6, 2001: Secretary of State Colin Powell says the administration will ?pick up where President Clinton left off.?

March 7, 2001: President Bush undercuts Powell, declares negotiations will take on a different tone.

January 2002: Bush labels North Korea a member of the ?Axis of Evil.?

March 2003: United States invades Iraq.

April 2003: North Korea withdraws from the Non-Proliferation Treaty; soon thereafter, they restart their reactor.

April 2005: North Korea appears to unload nuclear reactor with up to another 15 kg of weapons-grade plutonium.

September 19, 2005: In six-party talks North Korea agrees to abandon its nuclear program in exchange for incentives package.

September 19, 2005: US places sanctions on bank that provides financial support for North Korean Government Agencies; causes collapse of September 2005 agreement.

June 2006: North Korea is believed to have now produced enough plutonium for 4 to 13 nuclear bombs.

July 2006: North Korea tests missiles: one medium-range and five short-range. Medium-range ?Taep?o-dong-2 fails.

October 3, 2006: Kim Jong Il announces North Korea plans to test nuclear weapons.

October 4, 2006: North Korea asserts that nuclear test is a measure to ?bolstering its nuclear deterrent as a self-defense measure.?

Mid-2008: If North Korea unloads another batch of fuel, it may have enough nuclear material for 8 to 17 nuclear bombs.Linkage.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: International Machine Consortium
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
So much for the UN putting there foot down!! lol

Bush forces NK to do it and then the UN has to fix it? This is another Bush blunder. AXISS OF EEEEVEEEEELLLL..... THE U.S. WILL ATTACK YOU!
North Korea: Well, we'd better get hot on completing a bomb or the U.S. is gonna attack us too.
How could they not get that message? How would you have interpreted Bush's threats? As olive branches?

YES! I KNEW I could find it!

Someone tarding up the "Blame Bush! Blame Bush!"

Thanks, you didnt disappoint!


Borrowed from the other thread ....


Originally posted by: ayabe
Well FNC and the gang are certainly trying their hardest to pin this on Clinton, but the fact is, W labeled them part of the Axis of Evil, refuses to talk with them, and generally made them feel as if we could attack them at any time.

This is why they went ahead with their nuclear program.

Despite what some are saying, we have no military option, NK has over 10,000 artillery pieces buried in the mountains, pointed at Seoul. We could never hope take them out in a timely fashion before the city was leveled. If there was action, 1 million NK troops coming over the border would not be in a 'killing zone', they would steamroll the DMZ and our 40,000+/- troops there would be dead.

Here's a timeline for the "It's Clinton's fault" crowd.

PRESIDENT REAGAN

Mid-1980s: First signs of North Korea nuclear program detected by US intelligence.

1986: North Korea produces plutonium in reactor.
PRESIDENT GEORGE H. W. BUSH

1991: US begins talks with North Korea to end to nuclear program.

1992: North Korea has separated an estimated 0-10kg of weapons-grade plutonium, enough for 1 to 2 bombs.
PRESIDENT CLINTON

1993: North Korea announces it will leave nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty; US prepares to attack nuclear sites.

1994: Clinton Administration reaches Agreed Framework, North Korea freezes nuclear production for the next eight years.

August 1998: North Korea tests medium-range ?Taep?o-dong-1? missile.

December 1998: North Korea warns they will test another missile, but pressure from US dissuades them.

September 1999: Pyongyang agrees to long-range missile moratorium.

October 2000: Secretary of State Madeleine Albright is highest ranking US official to ever meet with Kim Jong Il.
PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH

March 6, 2001: Secretary of State Colin Powell says the administration will ?pick up where President Clinton left off.?

March 7, 2001: President Bush undercuts Powell, declares negotiations will take on a different tone.

January 2002: Bush labels North Korea a member of the ?Axis of Evil.?

March 2003: United States invades Iraq.

April 2003: North Korea withdraws from the Non-Proliferation Treaty; soon thereafter, they restart their reactor.

April 2005: North Korea appears to unload nuclear reactor with up to another 15 kg of weapons-grade plutonium.

September 19, 2005: In six-party talks North Korea agrees to abandon its nuclear program in exchange for incentives package.

September 19, 2005: US places sanctions on bank that provides financial support for North Korean Government Agencies; causes collapse of September 2005 agreement.

June 2006: North Korea is believed to have now produced enough plutonium for 4 to 13 nuclear bombs.

July 2006: North Korea tests missiles: one medium-range and five short-range. Medium-range ?Taep?o-dong-2 fails.

October 3, 2006: Kim Jong Il announces North Korea plans to test nuclear weapons.

October 4, 2006: North Korea asserts that nuclear test is a measure to ?bolstering its nuclear deterrent as a self-defense measure.?

Mid-2008: If North Korea unloads another batch of fuel, it may have enough nuclear material for 8 to 17 nuclear bombs.Linkage.

Heh, FOX and the Bush talking head will always blame Clinton, even though this is the middle of SECOND Bush term now. Everybody except those blinded by their bias can see that at least Clinton engaged in some diplomacy with NK, and all Bush did was focusing on Iraq and talk trash at NK without taking any action, diplomatically or otherwise.

Make no mistake, NK tested a Nuke is a very serious matter. Maybe it won't cause immediate damage like 911, but it is very possible that it can cause much more damage than 911 in the very near futrue. NK don't even have to do the damage themselves. I am sure there are some people, yeah including that one guy what's his name Bush haven't capture, with the money willing to buy one or two miniturized nuclear bomb from NK. It doesn't have to be very powerful, the radio-active material can kill enough people and cause big enough panic already.

This is just one of many failure by the Bush Admin, and like the war in Iraq, this failure will plague the US for generations after his Admin is gone.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
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North Korea does have 30 or so Romeo and Whiskey class subs along with a few "costal" subs. it wouldnt take much to put a nuke on one of those subs and make a one way trip to some harbor say puget sound, Long Beach, Tokyo or if the North Koreans really wanted to piss us off send one to Pearl Harbor.

 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
This is a lose-lose for the whole world. Our stance is that a nuclear NK is not something we are going to accept. Well there's absolutely nothing we can do to stop them; tough talk is what got us to this point in the first place.

The ONLY hope is that China comes around to our side on this and if we need to play hardball with them we should. They should cut all aid to NK or there's going to be stiff economic penalties to China from our end. This could cause regime change on it's own, but unfortunately starving millions of koreans might be an "ends justify the means" situation.
 

dexvx

Diamond Member
Feb 2, 2000
3,899
0
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Originally posted by: Lothar
5. Japan changes it's pacifist constitution and threatens to begin nuclear weapons development, which grabs China's attention and brings them to the UN negotiating table on sanctions against NK.

Japan does that China and Japan and South Korea will begin an arms race. After 60 years, many Asians in Asia still remember World War II and Japanese brutality like it was yesterday.

Originally posted by: Evadman
Their missle program is a joke. I can go to walmart, pickup a couple of D rocket motors, and get a missle to go farther than they did. The only way they can reliably deliver a missle is if they toss it out of the window of a plane.

Yes, because buillding an ICBM is a cakewalk? Their medium range missiles have proven to hit Japan with good accuracy. And yes, one can easily equip an airplane such as a MiG-29/27 with a decent sized Nuke and send it on (most probably) a 1-way mission.

BTW, www.cnn.com says it scored a magnitude 4.2 on the ricter scale. Thats a LOT of conventional TNT's to make it that far up:

Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said that the force of the blast was five to 15 kilotons.

So thats about the fire-power as the WW-II class nukes the US used against Hiroshima at the top end.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/10/09/korea.nuclear.test/index.html
 

imported_Lothar

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2006
4,559
1
0
Originally posted by: Termagant
Just switched to Fox News and they were already spinning it into a Clinton bash. I'll paraphrase:

"Many on the left may say this is another case where Bush dropped the ball. But but but if you look back to Clinton he actually gave North Korea a nuclear reactor."

Never mind that the two reacters were never even built, and were to be light water reacters which are completely incapable of being used to build nuclear weapons in any way.

Since when has FOX news reported accurate information?
Anything to take the Foley scandal off the screens.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
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Without being apoligetic to the Bush aministration, how could ANY president have stopped this? 3 previous administrations werent able to, so short of invading NK, this was unavoidable.

And as far as invading NK, get real. All we know about China's contept for NK is what we read in the news. I wouldnt be so sure China wouldnt jump in to their defense should we land troops there. And I dont think there is anyone in any party affiliation or administration that thinks we have a fighting chance with a ground war with China.

It isnt really ANYONE's fault. It just was unavoidable. Whether it's the wackos on the right assigning blame to Clinton or you freakin bleeding heart liberals on the left assigning blame to Bush, grow up and think like an adult. Whining babies, all of you.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
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The US and South Korea have been trying to get North Korea to end Hostilities for over 50 Years. You can not hope to be able to talk to North Korea in an intelligent manner. They act up like this so we will send them free food or other goodies. They have starved their own people to death in order to keep their military complex going. They are Communists without any care for anything we say.

They have death camps in the North where they execute political prisoners.
 

Ferocious

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2000
4,584
2
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hmm, they definately have WMD's. Bush has all the evidence he could ever need.

So when do we invade?

Oh I forgot, no oil.
 

imported_Lothar

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2006
4,559
1
0
Originally posted by: dexvx
Originally posted by: Lothar
5. Japan changes it's pacifist constitution and threatens to begin nuclear weapons development, which grabs China's attention and brings them to the UN negotiating table on sanctions against NK.

Japan does that China and Japan and South Korea will begin an arms race. After 60 years, many Asians in Asia still remember World War II and Japanese brutality like it was yesterday.

China is already in the arms race.
South Korea is more than likely to "sit this one out" as they've been doing the past decade.

But yeah...The new Japanese PM doesn't have the balls like koizumi to do it.

Whatever the case may be, we know only China can stop North Korea's ambitions.
Not the US, not the UN.
 

Jetster

Member
Aug 1, 2005
105
0
0
did anyone read this post form nytimes? it has some excellent reasons why we are here today:

Jason Jarvis (Seoul, Korea):

What should we do now? This is easy: bilateral negotiations. It is what Bush should have done from the beginning, and what they still should do.

The Bush administration has totally miscalculated on North Korea. A hawkish stance is doomed to fail for a variety of reasons:

1) Koreans (culturally) NEVER respond positively to being verbally abused in public, much less physically or financially assaulted. Such behavior always meets with a more over-the-top response so that the Korean can maintain face. By failing to understand Korean culture and Confucian tradition, Bush?s policies have no hope of success. Everything the North does is predictable, and it isnt because I am Nostradamus! Contrary to suggestions that the North is irrational, they are just acting like Koreans. Of course, in the Boltonized world of US foreign policy, such analysis is seen as irrelevant and useless.

2) No one else in the region (except Japan) has any interest in regime collapse or change. China, Russia and South Korea fear the flood of refugees, and South Korea in particular is deathly afraid of quick or unplanned reunification for financial reasons (Germany didnt really paint a rosy picture of such a future). Young South Koreans are quick to say unification is a great idea, but the reality of the sacrifices that would have to be made would set in quickly and it would strain a society already undergoing a mammoth amount of cultural and generational change.

3) The US/South Korea alliance is shaky to say the least. Most South Koreans (particularly younger/college students) fear/blame the US more than the North for the current problem, despite the hawkish stance of some South Korean conservative leaders. This is going to be more true in the long run (regardless of who wins the next election?most likely a SK conservative/hawk) as the younger generations increasingly move into positions of power. South Korea and China are also increasingly tied by business and have long standing historical ties that are growing in conjunction with China?s regional rise in power. It is obvious now that South Korea and China are on one side and Japan and the US are on the other. The nuclear test could alter this, but the missile test firing had marginal effects, so it remains to be seen how much movement there is in public opinion.

3.5) The alliance between Japan and the US is hopelessly unpopular in China and South Korea, meaning that 6 party talks may never really work. No one in these countries trusts Japan due to (a) their failure to apologize for WWII atrocities and continued visits to Yasukuni, (b) ongoing territorial disputes with all neighbors (Russia included)-this is a particularly sensitive issue for South Koreans-, (c) the whitewashing of WW2 atrocities in Japanese history textbooks.

4) Iraq taught everyone (Iran included) that its better to actually have nukes than to be suspected of it and not have them. There was little chance of US military action before due to the proximity of Northern artillery to Seoul (Clinton era estimates suggest over 1 million casualties from 1 day of North Korean shelling). There is even less chance of escalation now that Japan is a legitimate nuclear target for the North.

In the end, war isnt an option. To win is to lose as millions of South Koreans would have to be sacrificed for a victory (making it the definition of pyrrich). The six party talks have officially failed, and 6 years of isolation has gotten us nowhere. George really hates to admit defeat, but I hope for the sake of myself and my many friends here in the South and in Japan that he swallows his pride and comes to the table. It is time to make a change.

Jason Jarvis
Assistant Dean and Lecturer
Korea Development Institute Graduate School of Public Policy and Management
Seoul, Korea
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,816
83
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Originally posted by: blackangst1
Without being apoligetic to the Bush aministration, how could ANY president have stopped this? 3 previous administrations werent able to, so short of invading NK, this was unavoidable.

And as far as invading NK, get real. All we know about China's contept for NK is what we read in the news. I wouldnt be so sure China wouldnt jump in to their defense should we land troops there. And I dont think there is anyone in any party affiliation or administration that thinks we have a fighting chance with a ground war with China.

It isnt really ANYONE's fault. It just was unavoidable. Whether it's the wackos on the right assigning blame to Clinton or you freakin bleeding heart liberals on the left assigning blame to Bush, grow up and think like an adult. Whining babies, all of you.

I think Iraq certainly accelerated the situation.

Bush labelled 3 countries as being the "axis of evil," and then proceeds to invade one country unilaterally and unprovoked. so how does North Korea prevent the same thing from happening to them? by building a nuke. the same thing Iran, the third country on the axis, is trying to do.

meanwhile, both countries know that we can't respond militarily because we've already got our army locked up losing two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. we'll never launch military action against NK now that they've got the bomb unless they were to do something completely rediculous like sell a nuke to a foreign country / terrorist organization.
 

imported_Lothar

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2006
4,559
1
0
Originally posted by: Passions
Originally posted by: jman19
Originally posted by: jrenz
Korean news headlines... "NUCLEAR LAUNCH DETECTED"

Looks like N Korea rushed.

Yeah, NK teched up a lot faster than we expected :(

15 MIN NR!!!!!!!! NR NR NR!!

15 mins should be more than enough to get a nuke if you're playing BGH, Fastest Map Possible, or other money maps ;)