CNN is reporting that North Korea has tested a Nuke

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: blackangst1
The thing that is interesting, is no one seems to mention the fact that Bush actually halted what Clinton put in place as far as NK nuclear capabilities. So if anything, Bush slowed the process. Here's a few excerpts:

This negotiation (between Kim and Clinton) led to the Agreed Framework of October 21, 1994

The Agreed Framework:
Provisions, Implementation, Costs, Future Issues
The heart of the Agreed Framework was a U.S. commitment to provide North Korea
with a package of nuclear, energy, economic, and diplomatic benefits; in return North Korea would halt the operations and infrastructure development of its nuclear program.12 The Agreed Framework committed North Korea to ?freeze its graphite-moderated reactors and related facilities? with the freeze monitored by the IAEA. Ambassador Robert Gallucci, who negotiated for the United States, stated that ?related facilities? include the plutonium reprocessing plant and 8,000 stored fuel rods. Clinton Administration officials reportedly said that a secret ?confidential minute? to the Agreed Framework prohibits North Korea from construction of new nuclear facilities elsewhere in North Korea.
Gallucci and other officials emphasized that the key policy objective of the Clinton
Administration was to secure a freeze of North Korea?s nuclear program in order to prevent North Korea from producing large quantities of nuclear weapons grade plutonium through the operations of the 50 and 200 megawatt reactors and the plutonium reprocessing plant at Yongbyon. Gallucci referred to the prospect of North Korea producing enough plutonium annually for nearly 30 nuclear weapons if the 50 and 200 megawatt reactors went into operation.

Benefits to North Korea
Light Water Nuclear Reactors. North Korea was to receive two light water
reactors (LWRs) with a generating capacity of approximately 2,000 megawatts. The Agreed Framework set a ?target date? of 2003. The United States was obligated to organize an international consortium arrangement for the acquisition and financing of the reactors. The Clinton Administration and the governments of South Korea, Japan, and other countries
established in March 1995 the Korean Peninsula Energy Development Organization (KEDO) to coordinate the provision of the LWRs. After the groundbreaking at the reactor site in August 1997, KEDO officials changed the estimated completion date from 2003 to 2007; other experts predicted a much later date. The laying of the foundation for the LWRs ocurred in August 2002 just before the Kelly mission to North Korea and the Bush
Administration?s subsequent suspension of construction.

Oil at No Cost. The Agreed Framework committed the United States to provide
500,000 metric tons of heavy oil to North Korea annually until the first of the two light water eactors became operational. The oil shipments continued until KEDO?s decision in
November 2002 to cancel future shipments..

Lifting the U.S. Economic Embargo. The Agreed Framework specifies that within
three months from October 21, 1994, the two sides would reduce barriers to trade and
investment, including restrictions on telecommunications services and financial transactions. This required the Clinton Administration to relax the U.S. economic embargo on North Korea, which the Truman Administration and Congress put in place during the Korean War.
On January 20, 1995, the Administration announced initial, limited measures. North Korea complained loudly that these measures failed to meet the commitment stated in the Agreed Framework. In U.S.-North Korean talks in September 1999, the United States agreed to end a broader range of economic sanctions in exchange for a North Korean moratorium on future missile testing. President Clinton ordered the end of most economic sanctions in June 2000. Since then, North Korea has not met with any American firms to talk about trade and/or investment opportunities and has rejected an offer from the American Chamber of Commerce in Seoul to send a business delegation to Pyongyang.

Disposition of Fuel Rods from the Five Megawatt Reactor. The Agreed
Framework provided for the storage of the rods in North Korea under IAEA monitoring and a North Korean promise not to reprocess plutonium from the rods. ( :roll: ) also provided for subsequent talks on the ?ultimate disposition? of the rods.

-------------------- SNIP -------------------------

So basically Clinton provided aid, food, oil, and light water reactors in exchange for a "promise" from Kim he wouldnt use rods from said reactors for evil intentions. Uh huh. President Bush dismantled these provisions.

As I've previously stated I dont think today's test could have been prevented; however, people saying Bush accelerated it is bogus. Clinton gave him the technology, and Bush tried to dismantle it.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/IB91141.pdf

Heh, do you even know how light water nuclear plant works? Unlike Heavy-water reactors, Light-water reactors only need enriched uranium to 3.5 percent. But a nuclear weapon requires enriched uranium to 90-plus percent. Together with IAEA monitoring program, there is little NK can do with those LWR.

Under Clinton, there were diplomatic dialogs. There were diplmoatic exchanges. There were gonna be international weapon monitoring. US was helping NK to improve its economy, and maybe one day richer and more educated NK people will kick Kim out of the office themselves.

But no, Bush wants none of that. NK (Kim and every north korean) was one of the Axis of evil and the good old US can't have talks with the bad guys. Yeap, that certain accomplishd alot!

:laugh: mmmmmkay. Youre right. No one went hungry in NK when we were giving them millions in food and money. Kim passed it alllll along to the people

 

[killface]

Just received this from Stratfor about the supposed "second test":

Special Report: New North Korean Preparations Likely Just for Show
Summary

No sooner had the dust cleared from North Korea's first nuclear test Oct. 9 than speculation emerged about a second test. Although the North Koreans probably are capable of carrying out another test, Pyongyang can get almost as much political mileage by merely faking preparations for a second test.

Analysis

Within hours of North Korea's nuclear test Oct. 9, the head of Seoul's National Intelligence Service, Kim Seung Gyu, told South Korea's parliament that Pyongyang might be preparing a follow-on nuclear test at its Ponggye site in the country's northeast. Kim said increased activity, vehicles and personnel have been observed at the site, which was originally believed to be where the first North Korean nuclear test would take place.

The North's Oct. 9 test, now believed to have taken place in the Hwadae area, was about a 4.2 on the Richter scale, which would be consistent with more than 1,000 tons of high explosives, or one kiloton. Other estimates have put the blast at around 550 tons of high explosives. In either case, the blast was very small compared to past and current nuclear weapons.


A second nuclear test certainly is within North Korea's capabilities. It is widely believed that Pyongyang possesses six to eight nuclear devices and material enough to produce a few more.

The relatively small explosive yield of the test suggests that the North Korean device failed to function properly, though it could also mean that the North Koreans wanted to test their design on a smaller scale before conducting a full-scale test. If that is the case, Pyongyang, now confident in the effectiveness of its device, could be preparing a full-effect test.

The preparations at Ponggye cited by Kim, however, could be just for show. North Korea might be seeking to capitalize politically on the first test by making the world think a second test is imminent. This would be useful for keeping those countries that are most concerned with its nuclear capabilities -- the United States, Japan, South Korea and China -- off balance. With elections set for 2007 in South Korea and U.S. midterm elections only weeks away, the political magnitude of the North's test might exceed what was actually measured on the Richter scale.

This behavior is consistent with Pyongyang's strategy in dealing with the United States, Japan, South Korea and China, part of which is delaying a solution to the nuclear crisis for as long as possible. Keeping these countries off balance and jittery over the possibility of another test prevents them from acting decisively. The indecision keeps them from being unified in their response, and the resulting lack of unity gives North Korea time and leverage.

North Korea's intent with its first nuclear test was to shock the world and demonstrate that it has the will and capability to carry out its threats. That was accomplished. From Pyongyang's perspective, there is little need for a second test. Just about the only reason the North Koreans would have for conducting a second test is that they have constructed two types of nuclear devices -- plutonium and uranium -- and want to test them both. Given their meager resources, the North Koreans are not likely to waste material to carry out two explosions of the same type.

In this sense, the preparations at Ponggye are similar to the activity at North Korea's missile test sites in the days and weeks following the July 4 test launch of the Taepodong-2 missile. After the test launch, a second Taepodong-2 was set up in plain view of U.S. reconnaissance satellites. The speculation about follow-on launches that followed caused the same kind of political tension that Pyongyang is hoping to foster now. About a month later, the North Koreans took the missile down.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: killface
Just received this from Stratfor about the supposed "second test":

Special Report: New North Korean Preparations Likely Just for Show
Summary

No sooner had the dust cleared from North Korea's first nuclear test Oct. 9 than speculation emerged about a second test. Although the North Koreans probably are capable of carrying out another test, Pyongyang can get almost as much political mileage by merely faking preparations for a second test.

Analysis

Within hours of North Korea's nuclear test Oct. 9, the head of Seoul's National Intelligence Service, Kim Seung Gyu, told South Korea's parliament that Pyongyang might be preparing a follow-on nuclear test at its Ponggye site in the country's northeast. Kim said increased activity, vehicles and personnel have been observed at the site, which was originally believed to be where the first North Korean nuclear test would take place.

The North's Oct. 9 test, now believed to have taken place in the Hwadae area, was about a 4.2 on the Richter scale, which would be consistent with more than 1,000 tons of high explosives, or one kiloton. Other estimates have put the blast at around 550 tons of high explosives. In either case, the blast was very small compared to past and current nuclear weapons.


A second nuclear test certainly is within North Korea's capabilities. It is widely believed that Pyongyang possesses six to eight nuclear devices and material enough to produce a few more.

The relatively small explosive yield of the test suggests that the North Korean device failed to function properly, though it could also mean that the North Koreans wanted to test their design on a smaller scale before conducting a full-scale test. If that is the case, Pyongyang, now confident in the effectiveness of its device, could be preparing a full-effect test.

The preparations at Ponggye cited by Kim, however, could be just for show. North Korea might be seeking to capitalize politically on the first test by making the world think a second test is imminent. This would be useful for keeping those countries that are most concerned with its nuclear capabilities -- the United States, Japan, South Korea and China -- off balance. With elections set for 2007 in South Korea and U.S. midterm elections only weeks away, the political magnitude of the North's test might exceed what was actually measured on the Richter scale.

This behavior is consistent with Pyongyang's strategy in dealing with the United States, Japan, South Korea and China, part of which is delaying a solution to the nuclear crisis for as long as possible. Keeping these countries off balance and jittery over the possibility of another test prevents them from acting decisively. The indecision keeps them from being unified in their response, and the resulting lack of unity gives North Korea time and leverage.

North Korea's intent with its first nuclear test was to shock the world and demonstrate that it has the will and capability to carry out its threats. That was accomplished. From Pyongyang's perspective, there is little need for a second test. Just about the only reason the North Koreans would have for conducting a second test is that they have constructed two types of nuclear devices -- plutonium and uranium -- and want to test them both. Given their meager resources, the North Koreans are not likely to waste material to carry out two explosions of the same type.

In this sense, the preparations at Ponggye are similar to the activity at North Korea's missile test sites in the days and weeks following the July 4 test launch of the Taepodong-2 missile. After the test launch, a second Taepodong-2 was set up in plain view of U.S. reconnaissance satellites. The speculation about follow-on launches that followed caused the same kind of political tension that Pyongyang is hoping to foster now. About a month later, the North Koreans took the missile down.

Yeah I read about this on newsmax about 3 hours ago. We've got satellites looking at it.

I didnt post it cuz poeple think newsmax makes up their stories lol

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

:laugh: mmmmmkay. Youre right. No one went hungry in NK when we were giving them millions in food and money. Kim passed it alllll along to the people

Heh, didn't know Bush supporter nickel and dim stuff....I mean you guys have no problem spending billions per month in Iraq and you have problem spending a few hundred mils for a real threat?

So what if most of the money and food goes to Kim and his cronies. That only gives NK people more incentive to rise up against him. Plus the point here is not the money. It is the continues exchange and dialog, hoping to get NK people exposed to outside world and ideas instead of a closed NK selling nuclear weapon to terrorist in exchange for money.

 

[fitzov]

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Vic
No, seriously. The very underlying principals of marxist-leninist communism are force, aggression, and the cult of personality. To force and spread a singular opinion of a "perfect world" through violent revolution.

no, not really.

north korea is more facist than anything else.

Right.... :roll:

For all its horrors, fascism is at least well-known for being able to spark an economy. If NK was fascist, it might actually have some kind of industry besides military, and the people might actually have food on their plates and electrical power in their homes.
Educate yourself.

I majored in sociology in college... granted, it's been a few years, but I thought I remembered Marx believing that communism was something that would occur inevitably, not something that required a violent revolution.

and isn't the very idea of a leader (as in, the leader of a country) completely antithetical to the base beliefs of communism?

You have to make a disctinction in Marx's work between the "pamphlet" aka The Manifesto, and the scholarly work, "Capital". The former needs to be taken in historical context. In the latter, Marx attempts to explain the capitalist mode of production, and one of the central theses of the book rather, the muti-volume work) is that there is no universal law of economic organization.

Read the online text (volume 1) here:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/index.htm

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: blackangst1

:laugh: mmmmmkay. Youre right. No one went hungry in NK when we were giving them millions in food and money. Kim passed it alllll along to the people

Heh, didn't know Bush supporter nickel and dim stuff....I mean you guys have no problem spending billions per month in Iraq and you have problem spending a few hundred mils for a real threat?

So what if most of the money and food goes to Kim and his cronies. That only gives NK people more incentive to rise up against him. Plus the point here is not the money. It is the continues exchange and dialog, hoping to get NK people exposed to outside world and ideas instead of a closed NK selling nuclear weapon to terrorist in exchange for money.

Um... wow. Giving money to an oppressive government only solidifies and strengthens it, not weakens it. Doing so has never in history been an effective method of appeasement. The whole idea is akin to that of a medieval siege, but then catapulting food over the walls.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: fitzov

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Vic
No, seriously. The very underlying principals of marxist-leninist communism are force, aggression, and the cult of personality. To force and spread a singular opinion of a "perfect world" through violent revolution.

no, not really.

north korea is more facist than anything else.

Right.... :roll:

For all its horrors, fascism is at least well-known for being able to spark an economy. If NK was fascist, it might actually have some kind of industry besides military, and the people might actually have food on their plates and electrical power in their homes.
Educate yourself.

I majored in sociology in college... granted, it's been a few years, but I thought I remembered Marx believing that communism was something that would occur inevitably, not something that required a violent revolution.

and isn't the very idea of a leader (as in, the leader of a country) completely antithetical to the base beliefs of communism?

You have to make a disctinction in Marx's work between the "pamphlet" aka The Manifesto, and the scholarly work, "Capital". The former needs to be taken in historical context. In the latter, Marx attempts to explain the capitalist mode of production, and one of the central theses of the book rather, the muti-volume work) is that there is no universal law of economic organization.

Read the online text (volume 1) here:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/index.htm

I think the better distinction to make would be that between Marx's fantasies versus the nightmarish realities that his fantasies have since created.

Fascism killed some 20 million people last century. No one but a few nutcases wants to bring it back. Marxism killed 100 million people last century, and idiots still love it. Why?

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: Passions

Originally posted by: jman19

Originally posted by: jrenz
Korean news headlines... "NUCLEAR LAUNCH DETECTED"

Looks like N Korea rushed.

Yeah, NK teched up a lot faster than we expected

15 MIN NR!!!!!!!! NR NR NR!!

You have the gayest sig I have ever seen. Congrats.

Nice slur. Congrats. Yep, them Democrats, they can do anything better than Republicans. Even their hate speech is better!


Edit: Just as I thought.

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...&STARTPAGE=3&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

In that thread, umbrella39 uses the word "fagboi" and tries to pass it off as a typo when he's called on it. Now he's calling people sigs "gay".

Another fine example of the tolerant left. You're a miserable hypocrite. People like you prove daily that liberals are just as despicable as the conservatives you love to hate.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: blackangst1

:laugh: mmmmmkay. Youre right. No one went hungry in NK when we were giving them millions in food and money. Kim passed it alllll along to the people

Heh, didn't know Bush supporter nickel and dim stuff....I mean you guys have no problem spending billions per month in Iraq and you have problem spending a few hundred mils for a real threat?

So what if most of the money and food goes to Kim and his cronies. That only gives NK people more incentive to rise up against him. Plus the point here is not the money. It is the continues exchange and dialog, hoping to get NK people exposed to outside world and ideas instead of a closed NK selling nuclear weapon to terrorist in exchange for money.

Um... wow. Giving money to an oppressive government only solidifies and strengthens it, not weakens it. Doing so has never in history been an effective method of appeasement. The whole idea is akin to that of a medieval siege, but then catapulting food over the walls.

Heh, like I said, the food and the money is not the point. Communication and open up the minds of NK people is. But as usual, Bushies choose to ignore the point. So do you just give money and food without any condition? When you have the money, you get to choose the condition, can't you pick some condition that's favorable to you, like a weapon inspection programs?

Yeah that's appeasement. But if you can't invade them and kick Kim out yourselve, you gotta do what you gotta do. Anything is better than a guy with nuclear weapon in his hand, who is dumb and desperate enough to use it, or worse desperate for money enough to sell it to the highest bider.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: fitzov

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Vic
No, seriously. The very underlying principals of marxist-leninist communism are force, aggression, and the cult of personality. To force and spread a singular opinion of a "perfect world" through violent revolution.

no, not really.

north korea is more facist than anything else.

Right.... :roll:

For all its horrors, fascism is at least well-known for being able to spark an economy. If NK was fascist, it might actually have some kind of industry besides military, and the people might actually have food on their plates and electrical power in their homes.
Educate yourself.

I majored in sociology in college... granted, it's been a few years, but I thought I remembered Marx believing that communism was something that would occur inevitably, not something that required a violent revolution.

and isn't the very idea of a leader (as in, the leader of a country) completely antithetical to the base beliefs of communism?

You have to make a disctinction in Marx's work between the "pamphlet" aka The Manifesto, and the scholarly work, "Capital". The former needs to be taken in historical context. In the latter, Marx attempts to explain the capitalist mode of production, and one of the central theses of the book rather, the muti-volume work) is that there is no universal law of economic organization.

Read the online text (volume 1) here:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/index.htm

I think the better distinction to make would be that between Marx's fantasies versus the nightmarish realities that his fantasies have since created.

Fascism killed some 20 million people last century. No one but a few nutcases wants to bring it back. Marxism killed 100 million people last century, and idiots still love it. Why?

Because it sounds nice on paper, but every new iteration of Marxism has a slightly different take and each leader who advocates it is absolutely convinced that their version is better.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: blackangst1

:laugh: mmmmmkay. Youre right. No one went hungry in NK when we were giving them millions in food and money. Kim passed it alllll along to the people

Heh, didn't know Bush supporter nickel and dim stuff....I mean you guys have no problem spending billions per month in Iraq and you have problem spending a few hundred mils for a real threat?

So what if most of the money and food goes to Kim and his cronies. That only gives NK people more incentive to rise up against him. Plus the point here is not the money. It is the continues exchange and dialog, hoping to get NK people exposed to outside world and ideas instead of a closed NK selling nuclear weapon to terrorist in exchange for money.

Um... wow. Giving money to an oppressive government only solidifies and strengthens it, not weakens it. Doing so has never in history been an effective method of appeasement. The whole idea is akin to that of a medieval siege, but then catapulting food over the walls.

Heh, like I said, the food and the money is not the point. Communication and open up the minds of NK people is. But as usual, Bushies choose to ignore the point. So do you just give money and food without any condition? When you have the money, you get to choose the condition, can't you pick some condition that's favorable to you, like a weapon inspection programs?

Yeah that's appeasement. But if you can't invade them and kick Kim out yourselve, you gotta do what you gotta do. Anything is better than a guy with nuclear weapon in his hand, who is dumb and desperate enough to use it, or worse desperate for money enough to sell it to the highest bider.

Bushies?

There is no point in opening up the minds of the NK people. NK is not a democracy. The people of NK have zero power. They choose nothing but what their leaders decide for them. You accuse others of ignoring the point, but your post sounds like you're on crack.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: blackangst1

:laugh: mmmmmkay. Youre right. No one went hungry in NK when we were giving them millions in food and money. Kim passed it alllll along to the people

Heh, didn't know Bush supporter nickel and dim stuff....I mean you guys have no problem spending billions per month in Iraq and you have problem spending a few hundred mils for a real threat?

So what if most of the money and food goes to Kim and his cronies. That only gives NK people more incentive to rise up against him. Plus the point here is not the money. It is the continues exchange and dialog, hoping to get NK people exposed to outside world and ideas instead of a closed NK selling nuclear weapon to terrorist in exchange for money.

Um... wow. Giving money to an oppressive government only solidifies and strengthens it, not weakens it. Doing so has never in history been an effective method of appeasement. The whole idea is akin to that of a medieval siege, but then catapulting food over the walls.

Heh, like I said, the food and the money is not the point. Communication and open up the minds of NK people is. But as usual, Bushies choose to ignore the point. So do you just give money and food without any condition? When you have the money, you get to choose the condition, can't you pick some condition that's favorable to you, like a weapon inspection programs?

Yeah that's appeasement. But if you can't invade them and kick Kim out yourselve, you gotta do what you gotta do. Anything is better than a guy with nuclear weapon in his hand, who is dumb and desperate enough to use it, or worse desperate for money enough to sell it to the highest bider.

Do you have any idea on how controlled the people of NK are? How are we going to educate and opent he minds of the people when they are as controlled and brainwashed from birth?

Giving them money and food while they break the treaty wont magically wake the drones from their sleep and overthrow Kim Jong.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Vic

Bushies?

There is no point in opening up the minds of the NK people. NK is not a democracy. The people of NK have zero power. They choose nothing but what their leaders decide for them. You accuse others of ignoring the point, but your post sounds like you're on crack.

Man you gotta study your history more.....there are tons of countries over the last centry and half where the people rise up and deposed their government BECAUSE the government was not a democracy. Go read how the Chinese got rid of Qing Dynasty, and yes, most of the people who started that revolution had somekind of foreign education or exposure.

Naa, I am not on crack, I just know better.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: fitzov

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Vic
No, seriously. The very underlying principals of marxist-leninist communism are force, aggression, and the cult of personality. To force and spread a singular opinion of a "perfect world" through violent revolution.

no, not really.

north korea is more facist than anything else.

Right.... :roll:

For all its horrors, fascism is at least well-known for being able to spark an economy. If NK was fascist, it might actually have some kind of industry besides military, and the people might actually have food on their plates and electrical power in their homes.
Educate yourself.

I majored in sociology in college... granted, it's been a few years, but I thought I remembered Marx believing that communism was something that would occur inevitably, not something that required a violent revolution.

and isn't the very idea of a leader (as in, the leader of a country) completely antithetical to the base beliefs of communism?

You have to make a disctinction in Marx's work between the "pamphlet" aka The Manifesto, and the scholarly work, "Capital". The former needs to be taken in historical context. In the latter, Marx attempts to explain the capitalist mode of production, and one of the central theses of the book rather, the muti-volume work) is that there is no universal law of economic organization.

Read the online text (volume 1) here:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/index.htm

I think the better distinction to make would be that between Marx's fantasies versus the nightmarish realities that his fantasies have since created.

Fascism killed some 20 million people last century. No one but a few nutcases wants to bring it back. Marxism killed 100 million people last century, and idiots still love it. Why?

Because it sounds nice on paper, but every new iteration of Marxism has a slightly different take and each leader who advocates it is absolutely convinced that their version is better.

Sounds a lot like something else we have in this world called Religion.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: Vic

Bushies?

There is no point in opening up the minds of the NK people. NK is not a democracy. The people of NK have zero power. They choose nothing but what their leaders decide for them. You accuse others of ignoring the point, but your post sounds like you're on crack.

Man you gotta study your history more.....there are tons of countries over the last centry and half where the people rise up and deposed their government BECAUSE the government was not a democracy. Go read how the Chinese got rid of Qing Dynasty, and yes, most of the people who started that revolution had somekind of foreign education or exposure.

Naa, I am not on crack, I just know better.

No, you're just amazingly naive. I think you have no clue as to what the conditions are like in NK. Let me clue you in: the NK system of communism, called Juche, was developed by Kim Il-sung in response to (and against) the Soviet Union abandoning Stalinism in the 1950s. Essentially, he thought Stalin had been too soft. Absolute loyalty to party and leader is demanded of the people, to the point where it is essentially a state religion. In fact, their calendar was changed to date Year 1 as that of Kim Il-sung's birth year and he is revered as a Christ (or a "Big Brother," whichever you prefer). Brainwashing of the people to this state religion begins at birth. There are no minority political parties, nor is any form of political dissent allowed. 25% of the population are in the military. NK receives more international aid than any other country, and the people are kept in a constant state of poverty to the point of starvation (unknown large numbers died after the Soviet Union collapsed and aid stopped for a few years).

Oh yeah, revolution is a a-comin' there!

 

[imported_Lothar]

France says North Korea's Nuclear Test Was A Dud

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/10/11/D8KMKRTO0.html

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: Vic

Bushies?

There is no point in opening up the minds of the NK people. NK is not a democracy. The people of NK have zero power. They choose nothing but what their leaders decide for them. You accuse others of ignoring the point, but your post sounds like you're on crack.

Man you gotta study your history more.....there are tons of countries over the last centry and half where the people rise up and deposed their government BECAUSE the government was not a democracy. Go read how the Chinese got rid of Qing Dynasty, and yes, most of the people who started that revolution had somekind of foreign education or exposure.

Naa, I am not on crack, I just know better.

No, you're just amazingly naive. I think you have no clue as to what the conditions are like in NK. Let me clue you in: the NK system of communism, called Juche, was developed by Kim Il-sung in response to (and against) the Soviet Union abandoning Stalinism in the 1950s. Essentially, he thought Stalin had been too soft. Absolute loyalty to party and leader is demanded of the people, to the point where it is essentially a state religion. In fact, their calendar was changed to date Year 1 as that of Kim Il-sung's birth year and he is revered as a Christ (or a "Big Brother," whichever you prefer). Brainwashing of the people to this state religion begins at birth. There are no minority political parties, nor is any form of political dissent allowed. 25% of the population are in the military. NK receives more international aid than any other country, and the people are kept in a constant state of poverty to the point of starvation (unknown large numbers died after the Soviet Union collapsed and aid stopped for a few years).

Oh yeah, revolution is a a-comin' there!

Yup.

I believe this has been posted before, but it bears a repost - here are a bunch of pictures from a Russian's trip to North Korea, with captions. The pictures pretty much speak for themselves.

North Korea

 

[Coldkilla]

Do everyone a favor.. drop a bomb on all of em.. do them a favor.. cuz they're all starving, all slowing going to their demise..

you try to help, it'll do more harm than good.. they've never even heard of the outside world.. we kill this leader of theirs.. we're the one's who killed their god..