CNN Has more sympathy for the rapists.

[Jaskalas]

...but everything they did after was terrible too.

That's a key aspect. The picture they took lets us determine that this was not a friendly relation. From there, knowing that she was assaulted we can lean towards full out rape. No something consensual gone awry.

The photo pretty much allows me to move away from questioning her culpability to wanting them removed from society as full blown rapists.

 

[nehalem256]

Sorry, not going to play your BS game as it has absolutely nothing to do with what occurred in this case. The boys were convicted of rape in a court of law. The law and court are clear as to what constitutes rape. End of story.

It absolutely has to do with whether what happened was just.

You don't want to "play the game" because it will make you look like a liar or a hypocrite.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Can someone answer nehalem's question though?

It's a good one... and I'll add to it a bit to make it match up better with what happened here.

Teenaged boy gets hammered to the point of being passed out at party, group of teen girls is laughing, taking pictures of him, two of them are posing with his dick in their hands, hell... one girl even puts it in her mouth. They touch themselves and then put the same fingers on his nose, wipe across his face etc and are cracking up, laughing their asses off, etc... (sorry to get graphic but it's necessary to illustrate the point here)

In any universe are they charged with rape?

In any dimension are they registered sex offenders for the rest of their lives?

Within all the facets of the multiverse is there a single version of reality where they spend years in a detention facility of any kind?

Answer the question, please.

It's not that female rapists get off more easily so much as it is that male rape victims are ignored or even laughed at. Finger an unconscious woman, rape. Teabag an unconscious man, lulz. Is it any wonder that male rape victims often become rapists themselves?

 

[skyking]

I need a fucking drink. D:





Full on rape. Not the same as half on rape.

Ah yes, the continuum of rape.

 

[Geosurface]

Ah yes, the continuum of rape.

lol, ah yes the false equivalency of rape...

as though there is a single person who, if they had to choose, wouldn't pick what happened in this case being done to them vs. a posse of 25 strangers with AIDS grabbing them off the street and working them over for 72 hours straight.

Obviously a completely absurd example, deliberately so... but to pretend as though all sexual assault situations are exactly equal in severity is clearly one of those "let's deny reality together by repeating a mantra enough times!" moments I'm seeing more and more of.

 

[LumbergTech]

lol, ah yes the false equivalency of rape...

as though there is a single person who, if they had to choose, wouldn't pick what happened in this case being done to them vs. a posse of 25 strangers with AIDS grabbing them off the street and working them over for 72 hours straight.

Obviously a completely absurd example, deliberately so... but to pretend as though all sexual assault situations are exactly equal in severity is clearly one of those "let's deny reality together by repeating a mantra enough times!" moments I'm seeing more and more of.

I don't see it as a useful distinction..do you care to try to explain why you do?

 

[Geosurface]

I don't see it as a useful distinction..do you care to try to explain why you do?

I think the reason is pretty obvious.

I'd want someone involved in a rape involving full penetration (with the traditional biological apparatus) + completion + not using protection + incorporating violence and/or threats of it + premeditation etc, to face far harsher punishments (perhaps even death) than someone who stuck their finger in someone else who was drunk, and who they knew, while they themselves were drunk and a bunch of people were laughing, egging each other on... and generally being idiots.

If it had been one of their male buddies who passed out drunk and they pulled down his pants and were sticking their fingers in his ass, and they "secreted" on him in the same fashion, it would be perceived as a stupid hazing prank type thing... a particularly gross and invasive one, no doubt, but rare indeed would be the young man who would press charges for rape in that instance or the judge who would give this same sentence for it.

I'm not saying what happened to her is nothing, it's really vile and disgusting. I'm just not sure it justifies these two teenagers being registered sex offenders for life or spending years in detention.

 

[Jaskalas]

Mutual drunks leading each other on. One passes out, the other finishes. That's the sort of argument to present in a situation like this.

The deal breaker for me is what else they did, during and after. Hostile violations (photo, threats) with no respect for the victim brings this beyond just a sexual encounter. Their other actions, IMO, null any cuplability she had.

 

[Geosurface]

The deal breaker for me is what else they did, during and after. Hostile violations (photo, threats) with no respect for the victim brings this beyond just a sexual encounter. Their other actions, IMO, null any cuplability she had.

I haven't heard or seen much about that stuff yet (almost nothing) and potentially I might nudge more in the same direction you did if I go looking into it.

Still, it seems to me that the judicial system should only look at the event itself.

 

[LumbergTech]

I think the reason is pretty obvious.

I'd want someone involved in a rape involving full penetration (with the traditional biological apparatus) + completion + not using protection + incorporating violence and/or threats of it + premeditation etc, to face far harsher punishments (perhaps even death) than someone who stuck their finger in someone else who was drunk, and who they knew, while they themselves were drunk and a bunch of people were laughing, egging each other on... and generally being idiots.

If it had been one of their male buddies who passed out drunk and they pulled down his pants and were sticking their fingers in his ass, and they "secreted" on him in the same fashion, it would be perceived as a stupid hazing prank type thing... a particularly gross and invasive one, no doubt, but rare indeed would be the young man who would press charges for rape in that instance or the judge who would give this same sentence for it.

I'm not saying what happened to her is nothing, it's really vile and disgusting. I'm just not sure it justifies these two teenagers being registered sex offenders for life or spending years in detention.

What do you think an appropriate punishment is for sticking your fingers in someones private part while they are incapacitated..male or female?

 

[Geosurface]

What do you think an appropriate punishment is for sticking your fingers in someones private part while they are incapacitated..male or female?

Honestly, I don't know. I think if I were a judge confronted with having to figure that out, I'd really struggle with it. I know they have sentencing guidelines but I know you're trying to find out what I think those guidelines should say.

I think it can be very dependent on the circumstances surrounding it... I'd view it in a worse light if some guys used roofies on a girl at a bar they'd just met and then did that.

I sort of like the idea of the justice system having very clear guidelines so that we can't let sexism and other considerations creep in and lead to a situation like what we have now, where males are punished much more harshly for the same crime than females.

Yet, I also very much like context and judicial discretion. So... I guess I'm a bit torn on this sort of thing.

I guess in the greater context of what the school etc could do to them, I'd say hit them with like 6 months juvenile detention... no permanent sex offender status though, kicked off the football team... not sure what else.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Geo, what they did is considered rape by law. Male or female, it makes no difference. If they had done this to one of their football buddies, and he chose to press charges, they would be punished accordingly.

It makes no difference how she became incapacitated. By drink, rufinol, or other means, their actions are not excused by law.

Based on the articles I've reviewed, their sex offender registration for life hinders on their rehabilitation progress. As well as their time behind bars.

It's also important to note that these two were not charged as adults, if they had been then their punishments could be far worse.

 

[ch33zw1z]

lol, ah yes the false equivalency of rape...

as though there is a single person who, if they had to choose, wouldn't pick what happened in this case being done to them vs. a posse of 25 strangers with AIDS grabbing them off the street and working them over for 72 hours straight.

Obviously a completely absurd example, deliberately so... but to pretend as though all sexual assault situations are exactly equal in severity is clearly one of those "let's deny reality together by repeating a mantra enough times!" moments I'm seeing more and more of.

LOL, I'm seriously laughing. You just described religion to a T! Throw up some hail mary's, sins absolved! We believe so it must be true! But anyways, I digress...

Sorry dude, but rape is rape. Once the line is crossed, the punishment must fit the crime.

 

[Geosurface]

LOL, I'm seriously laughing. You just described religion to a T! Throw up some hail mary's, sins absolved! We believe so it must be true! But anyways, I digress...

And? Are you under the impression I'm religious? I'm a life-long, die-hard militant atheist.

Sorry dude, but rape is rape. Once the line is crossed, the punishment must fit the crime.

Okay, so if "rape is rape" and suddenly Rumpelstiltskin or Mr. Myxlplyx or the Devil or Q from Star Trek or whoever you prefer to envision appears before you and you have to choose between getting your a-hole fingered while you're passed out drunk, or having a train run on you by 12 large prison inmates... I take it you'd be cool with a coin flip?

I'm being deliberately absurd of course, but the point remains: You can't honestly tell me with a straight face that "rape is rape" if the implication of that phrase is that all rapes are equally bad.

I refuse to believe that you believe that.

 

[nehalem256]

Sorry dude, but rape is rape.

I find it amusing that the people who came up with this phrase are also the ones who complain about conservatives having black or white thinking.

Once the line is crossed, the punishment must fit the crime.

I don't think effectively ruining a person's life, by making them a registered sex offender, fits the crime of fingering a drunk girl.

 

[nehalem256]

It's not that female rapists get off more easily so much as it is that male rape victims are ignored or even laughed at. Finger an unconscious woman, rape. Teabag an unconscious man, lulz. Is it any wonder that male rape victims often become rapists themselves?

For some reason if a 16 year old boy complained he was raped because some girls touched his penis while he was drunk the only result would be laughter.

 

[fskimospy]

Let me tell you, the fact that nehalem is involved in this thread and the side that he's taken is a total surprise to me.

 

[cybrsage]

And? Are you under the impression I'm religious? I'm a life-long, die-hard militant atheist.



Okay, so if "rape is rape" and suddenly Rumpelstiltskin or Mr. Myxlplyx or the Devil or Q from Star Trek or whoever you prefer to envision appears before you and you have to choose between getting your a-hole fingered while you're passed out drunk, or having a train run on you by 12 large prison inmates... I take it you'd be cool with a coin flip?

I'm being deliberately absurd of course, but the point remains: You can't honestly tell me with a straight face that "rape is rape" if the implication of that phrase is that all rapes are equally bad.

I refuse to believe that you believe that.

It is called "reduction to absurdity" and it is a well known and accepted style of showing the other person their argument has failed (Aristotle used it to great effect). If, using their own argument, you can show it is absurd via an example, then the argument cannot be used at all due to it being absurd. The example must be possible without divine intervention, Q, etc. though. However, in your case you could have simple said he got on a bus in India and they offered him the choice between being gang raped for hours or having a finger put up his butt while drunk.

People hate reduction to absurdity because most people refuse to admit their favorite argument is actually absurd.

 

[nehalem256]

Let me tell you, the fact that nehalem is involved in this thread and the side that he's taken is a total surprise to me.

For some reason if a 16 year old boy complained he was raped because some girls touched his penis while he was drunk the only result would be laughter.

Is it because I hate boys and don't have a problem with seeing them raped? :hmm:

 

[Mursilis]

There is nothing complex about rape.

Wrong. Rape cases can be some of the hardest criminal cases to prosecute because they can be incredibly complex. Many (most? I forgot the stats) rape cases are acquaintance-related, and the lack of consent isn't clear-cut. All sorts of questions come up, as any experienced criminal attorney will tell you. Was there consent? Expressed or implied? How much consent? Was it revoked? Was the victim too impaired to give consent? Was the victim of age? Did he/she lie about his age? Should the accused have known the victim's true age? Etc., etc. Rape is a terrible crime and tragedy for the victim, but one should not rush to judgment in rape cases either. [I'm talking here about rape cases generally, not this Ohio case specifically.]

 

[Londo_Jowo]

It absolutely has to do with whether what happened was just.

You don't want to "play the game" because it will make you look like a liar or a hypocrite.

No, your BS fantasy scenario has absolutely nothing to do with was transpired in this case. I seriously doubt that any girls at a party would do what you describe in your fantasy defense. Putting makeup on the poor drunken slob most likely would be the worse thing they would do.

The fact of the matter the boys not only touched the girl in an inappropriate way without her consent (she was unconscious) but actually filmed it sealing their demise. No matter how you want to spin it the inappropriate touching constitutes rape in Ohio. The boys were convicted in a court of law by a judge/jury..............end of story!!!

 

[cybrsage]

HAHNVILLE, La. – A 15-year-old girl has been charged with three counts of aggravated rape, and five counts of indecent behavior with a juvenile after police say the girl allegedly had inappropriate sexual contact with five boys younger than 11. The assaults allegedly occurred at a party being held at the home of one of the boys. A mother of one of the boys called police after finding out what had happened.

Read more: http://www.dreamindemon.com/2007/11/29/girl-15-charged-with-raping-boys-at-party/#ixzz2NzLSiuvq


Just saying - it happens.

 

[Geosurface]

I seriously doubt that any girls at a party would do what you describe

 

[nehalem256]

No, your BS fantasy scenario has absolutely nothing to do with was transpired in this case. I seriously doubt that any girls at a party would do what you describe in your fantasy defense.

It has to do with whether or not justice was done. If the same thing done to a boy would be laughed off how can we say ruining the lives of 2 boys for doing it to a girl is justice?

Putting makeup on the poor drunken slob most likely would be the worse thing they would do.

Of course judging my most of the responses here they can't imagine a boy doing it either.

The fact of the matter the boys not only touched the girl in an inappropriate way without her consent (she was unconscious) but actually filmed it sealing their demise. No matter how you want to spin it the inappropriate touching constitutes rape in Ohio. The boys were convicted in a court of law by a judge/jury..............end of story!!!

I think calling inappropriate touching rape is raping the definition of rape.

The intent is to make an emotional appeal. Imagine if instead of headlines calling the boys rapists they were call inappropriate touchers. It just does not have the same ring to it does it?

 

[Geosurface]

I think calling inappropriate touching rape is raping the definition of rape.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

If I'd been the victim of a brutal REAL (yes I said it, REAL) rape, and had to sit next to someone who was fingered while they were passed out from drinking too much at the support group, I think I might find that a bit irksome.

Btw I am not saying what was done to her was nothing, or was right, or was appropriate. It was none of those things. I personally find it vile and awful. People being emotional idiots about it, however, forces me to sympathize more with these douche bag kids than I should have to do if we lived in a more sane society.