Christian and Athiest in the same house!

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: phantom309
The reason isn't just spiritual. For better or worse, Christian values are an enormous part of Western culture. Whether one agrees with them or not, it's vital to understand them well if one is to understand mainstream America.

You can receive a far more accurate accounting of that from some good history classes than you ever will from a church. Also, the only useful thing I can see picking up is as a mirror to show just how UNCHRISTIAN America is in basically every way possible.

 

[DougK62]

What's it called when you believe in religion "just in case" there is a heaven/hell? It escapes me.

 

[AMCRambler]

I've been getting alot of belief forcing lately from my mom and my girlfriend, both Cathokics. I used to go to church, I used to believe everything int he bible because that is what was crammed down my throat since I was born. Since going to college and studying evolution, physics, etc I've since changed my mind about what I believe. I don't go to church on Sundays any more and it pisses them off I guess. They feel like my soul needs to be saved or something here. My mom is the worst. She starts the whole Catholic guilt trip on me every chance she gets. We usually just end up getting in fight because she can't defend against of the reasons I give her for not wanting to be Catholic anymore. So I've got to say, in MY experience it is the people who have a religion that are the ones I constantly find pushing their beliefs on others. When was the last time an Agnostic or Atheist jumped you and tried to convert you from Christianity? It just doesn't happen.

 

[phantom309]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: phantom309
The reason isn't just spiritual. For better or worse, Christian values are an enormous part of Western culture. Whether one agrees with them or not, it's vital to understand them well if one is to understand mainstream America.

You can receive a far more accurate accounting of that from some good history classes than you ever will from a church. Also, the only useful thing I can see picking up is as a mirror to show just how UNCHRISTIAN America is in basically every way possible.

Don't confuse the map with the territory.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: datalink7

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: swimscubasteve
WTH? Why would you think that looking at laws from opposite viewpoints is a good idea? Why don't you just look at the reasons for which the law is being proposed.

In this case, although impractical, it seems like a good idea to allow children not to be brainwashed with something as subjective as religion at such an early age.

Critical thinking is clearly not your strong point. Here's a tip: atheism IS a religion. This thread is all about the brainwashed calling the brainwashed brainwashed. Try to learn to play nice with people of other religions, ok?

Atheism is hardly a religion. At least in my case, it is simply the lack of a religion. I don't ever think about it. I don't have an active disbelief in God... I just don't believe in God.

Then you are an agnostic, not an atheist. Atheism requires an active disbelief in God(s). Get it straight.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: datalink7

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: DurocShark
Well, lately my wife has been trying to get our son to go to church and participate in the teen ministry's events. Yesterday he finally said, "Why would I want to go listen to a bunch of people worshipping their fantasies?" I had to leave the room. That was a great line! But I didn't want to make my wife look like a fool by laughing.

All the proof one needs that atheism is a competing faith can be seen in the instinctual need of its followers to attack other faiths.
Were it a logical, scientific belief (like agnosticism for example), it would be tolerant.

Isn't it kind of ironic you are attacking Atheist beliefs in this post?

And not all Atheists need to attack other faiths. I don't do so. No Atheist I know personally (certainly I've met some on this site) do so. My dad (atheist) lived with my mom (catholic) for 20 years and never once mentioned religion that I recall.

You sound more like what you are trying to describe, rationalizing your belief system so as to belittle others.

I have not for one word expressed my belief system in this thread. Kindly don't ASSume.

 

[Cooler]

I have few cousins who are Jewish/Christian.

They basically practice both religions but did not go to a church or synagogue.

They however acted like Atheist when they grew but celebrated Christmas and Hanukkah.

So they could get together with rest of family at the time.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: DougK62
What's it called when you believe in religion "just in case" there is a heaven/hell? It escapes me.

Pascal's Wager.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
But, like I pointed out in another post, you have age limits in America based on the idea that important decisions should be made by the individual only after they're able to. drinking, military, driving, voting, sex, etc.

Those "important decisions" are not personal decisions but ones that carry societal responsibility. Do you see that?

You cannot disconnect religion from society like that. Ones religious affiliations could GREATLY impact choices of sexuality, voting, possibly military choice, etc. I see your reasoning, but I think you're drawing a line where no clear line exists.

Let me try it ithis way: I can't vote for a particular political party candidate until I'm 18 because I have to be old enough to make those decisions with some knowledge and wisdom. You say who I vote for affects society as a whole. If I'm raised in the KKK or extremist Islamic or whatever, don't those religious choices also impact society? And yet, a parent can choose to put a child into one of those churches, even against their will, while a supergenius who gets a college degree in political science at age 16 can NOT vote. As a less extreme example, being a fundamentalist evangelical gives a strong likelihood that I will be voting Republican, thereby influencing society. Therefore joining a church is influencing society.

So what you're saying is that we should repeal the freedom of and from religion clause from the First Amendment because some religious views might cause some people to run contrary to your political views and agenda?

:roll:

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: phantom309

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: phantom309
The reason isn't just spiritual. For better or worse, Christian values are an enormous part of Western culture. Whether one agrees with them or not, it's vital to understand them well if one is to understand mainstream America.

You can receive a far more accurate accounting of that from some good history classes than you ever will from a church. Also, the only useful thing I can see picking up is as a mirror to show just how UNCHRISTIAN America is in basically every way possible.

Don't confuse the map with the territory.

OMG that's an AWESOME PHRASE!!!

Can I borrow that for some essays in the future? Actually I'll use it anyway, I just wanted to appear polite for a change to keep people guessing.

Seriously though, do you know where that phrase comes from?

And to address your point, that's why I said good, and some, instead of just one history class. Being 'in' something, while it provides an experience, also provides a narrow and biased view of the thing. The study of a thing (when done correctly) provides a much broader and less slanted picture. You couldn't possibly accurately convey what went on in Iran with the coup just by being in Iran or America during it. You have to have all the compiled resources to explain how America overthrew a budding and grateful democracy in order to support empirialism and capital gain for elites.

I agree everyone should go to all sorts of different churches a few times for the experience...just don't think you're learning anything about what's really going on by doing so.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
But, like I pointed out in another post, you have age limits in America based on the idea that important decisions should be made by the individual only after they're able to. drinking, military, driving, voting, sex, etc.

Those "important decisions" are not personal decisions but ones that carry societal responsibility. Do you see that?

You cannot disconnect religion from society like that. Ones religious affiliations could GREATLY impact choices of sexuality, voting, possibly military choice, etc. I see your reasoning, but I think you're drawing a line where no clear line exists.

Let me try it ithis way: I can't vote for a particular political party candidate until I'm 18 because I have to be old enough to make those decisions with some knowledge and wisdom. You say who I vote for affects society as a whole. If I'm raised in the KKK or extremist Islamic or whatever, don't those religious choices also impact society? And yet, a parent can choose to put a child into one of those churches, even against their will, while a supergenius who gets a college degree in political science at age 16 can NOT vote. As a less extreme example, being a fundamentalist evangelical gives a strong likelihood that I will be voting Republican, thereby influencing society. Therefore joining a church is influencing society.

So what you're saying is that we should repeal the freedom of and from religion clause from the First Amendment because some religious views might cause some people to run contrary to your political views and agenda?

:roll:

Ummmm, not even remotely.

I'm pointing out that my claim that choice of religion is similar to choice of voting or drinking or having sex, is valid with regards to age limitations. I further went on to offer refutation of your concept of social impact being the deciding factor of differentiation.

 

[sourceninja]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: sourceninja
Let me tell you a story about how I stopped beliving in god.

I grew up in a catholic family. We went to church 2 times a week. I also went to classes 3 times a week to learn how to be catholic. When I was about 11 had questions. I asked my mother, she didn't have suitable answers. My father didn't either. He said I should trust in god or ask the priest. So I asked the priest and he told me asking those questions showed my lack of faith. He said I just had to believe. He also quoted things from the bible that didn't seem to have anything to do with the conversation, but as i was 11 they seemed important and swayed me for awhile. Fast forward 3 more years. I'm 14 years old its summer. My mom lost her job. Times are tough and we are having problems. I get a phone call from the church asking for my mother. She gets of the phone crying. I find out though being nosey that she was crying because they were getting on to her for not giving money the last few months in the offering plate. A few weeks later they sent us offering envalopes for my parents, and some for me (as if a 14 year old kid needs to worry about giving money to a church). I lost my faith right there. I came to the decision that religion is wrong on my own. My parents do not support me, they had no infulence, and I did it myself at 14 years old. My parents struggled for years to pay taxes, pay the church (to an aceptable percentage of their income), and feed us. If there is a god, he doesn't need money. He doesn't need churches. He doesn't need anything from me. I will live my life and be a good person. If thats not enough for god, if he needs my worship and begging for forgivness, the screw god. I'd rather burn in hell.

:thumbsup:

religion should be about being a good person

Of course, 'good' is an ambiguous word today. But my problem with sourceninja's conclusion is that it's a logical fallacy; poor behavior by some "Christians" doesn't really go to the central question of theism any more than poor behavior by atheists (think Stalin's mass murder, for example) proves there is a God.

That was just what got me out of being part of a church. However my current views have been shaped by lenghty study in highschool and some college of world religions, philosphy , etc. But this is not the thread to talk about it.

 

[CKent]

Still going at it Vic? How many conversions has your namecalling and condescending attitude gotten you here at AT? Just curious

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: Philippine Mango

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: DurocShark
Yesterday he finally said, "Why would I want to go listen to a bunch of people worshipping their fantasies?" I had to leave the room. That was a great line! But I didn't want to make my wife look like a fool by laughing.

You sound like a real jerk. Kids don't come up with stuff like that on their own and certainly wouldn't be so disrespectful to his mother unless he was following your example. Congrats.

The kid is 14 years old, yes they do! What do you think his kid is retarded? I say by the time most kids hit the age of 10 or 12, they're about fully aware of their world and environment, it's more or less since kids mature at different rates..

Most intelligent 14 year olds will tell you they aren't sure if there's a god or not. That's an awfully huge question to answer on your own by that age...or any age. The fact that this child has such a concrete viewpoint suggests some level of indoctri....uh....."fair question answering".

I don't typically kick it with 14 year olds so I wouldn't know what 'most' intelligent 14 year olds would say. I never read any studies about this either. Hell, I didn't know that you had to be intelligent to answer that question properly anyway.

Well given that most 30-year olds I kick it with still wonder about it tells me something. :thumbsup:

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: RBachman
Still going at it Vic? How many conversions has your namecalling and condescending attitude gotten you here at AT? Just curious

What the heck? Your first post on the thread and it is namecalling someone about namecalling?

Talk about calling the hypocrite a hypocrite. :roll:

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: DaShen

Originally posted by: RBachman
Still going at it Vic? How many conversions has your namecalling and condescending attitude gotten you here at AT? Just curious

What the heck? Your first post on the thread and it is namecalling someone about namecalling?

Talk about calling the hypocrite a hypocrite. :roll:

Hello, and welcome to the Anandtech forums! You should familiarize yourself by reading a few threads before posting to get an idea of what the forum and its posters are like. Thanks for visiting!

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: DaShen

Originally posted by: RBachman
Still going at it Vic? How many conversions has your namecalling and condescending attitude gotten you here at AT? Just curious

What the heck? Your first post on the thread and it is namecalling someone about namecalling?

Talk about calling the hypocrite a hypocrite. :roll:

Hello, and welcome to the Anandtech forums! You should familiarize yourself by reading a few threads before posting to get an idea of what the forum and its posters are like. Thanks for visiting!

LOL... okay Mr Post Count : 2877 Joined 08/17/2005. :roll:

Seriously, you are going to get petulant like that?

 

[mordantmonkey]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: Philippine Mango

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: DurocShark
Yesterday he finally said, "Why would I want to go listen to a bunch of people worshipping their fantasies?" I had to leave the room. That was a great line! But I didn't want to make my wife look like a fool by laughing.

You sound like a real jerk. Kids don't come up with stuff like that on their own and certainly wouldn't be so disrespectful to his mother unless he was following your example. Congrats.

The kid is 14 years old, yes they do! What do you think his kid is retarded? I say by the time most kids hit the age of 10 or 12, they're about fully aware of their world and environment, it's more or less since kids mature at different rates..

Most intelligent 14 year olds will tell you they aren't sure if there's a god or not. That's an awfully huge question to answer on your own by that age...or any age. The fact that this child has such a concrete viewpoint suggests some level of indoctri....uh....."fair question answering".

I don't typically kick it with 14 year olds so I wouldn't know what 'most' intelligent 14 year olds would say. I never read any studies about this either. Hell, I didn't know that you had to be intelligent to answer that question properly anyway.

Well given that most 30-year olds I kick it with still wonder about it tells me something. :thumbsup:

But most 14 year olds think they know everything :thumbsup:
can't directly blame the father. My friends dad is a baptist minister, none of his three sons became christian. go figure.

 

[DougK62]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: DaShen

Originally posted by: RBachman
Still going at it Vic? How many conversions has your namecalling and condescending attitude gotten you here at AT? Just curious

What the heck? Your first post on the thread and it is namecalling someone about namecalling?

Talk about calling the hypocrite a hypocrite. :roll:

Hello, and welcome to the Anandtech forums! You should familiarize yourself by reading a few threads before posting to get an idea of what the forum and its posters are like. Thanks for visiting!

BTO sucks.

 

[phantom309]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: phantom309

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: phantom309
The reason isn't just spiritual. For better or worse, Christian values are an enormous part of Western culture. Whether one agrees with them or not, it's vital to understand them well if one is to understand mainstream America.

You can receive a far more accurate accounting of that from some good history classes than you ever will from a church. Also, the only useful thing I can see picking up is as a mirror to show just how UNCHRISTIAN America is in basically every way possible.

Don't confuse the map with the territory.

OMG that's an AWESOME PHRASE!!!

Can I borrow that for some essays in the future? Actually I'll use it anyway, I just wanted to appear polite for a change to keep people guessing.

Seriously though, do you know where that phrase comes from?

And to address your point, that's why I said good, and some, instead of just one history class. Being 'in' something, while it provides an experience, also provides a narrow and biased view of the thing. The study of a thing (when done correctly) provides a much broader and less slanted picture. You couldn't possibly accurately convey what went on in Iran with the coup just by being in Iran or America during it. You have to have all the compiled resources to explain how America overthrew a budding and grateful democracy in order to support empirialism and capital gain for elites.

I agree everyone should go to all sorts of different churches a few times for the experience...just don't think you're learning anything about what's really going on by doing so.

I appreciate the lecture on American imperialism and the proper use of philosophical cliches. Since I'm usually on the other side of these types of arguments I must confess this is all a bit awkward. I will defer to your obviously superior education and intelligence from here on out. However, let me clarify. The "experience" of Christianity is exactly what I want my kids to have. They will have the rest of their lives to learn the history of the Evil Christian White Male, and I'm sure they will. What they do with their experience and knowledge is up to them.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: mordantmonkey
But most 14 year olds think they know everything :thumbsup:
can't directly blame the father. My friends dad is a baptist minister, none of his three sons became christian. go figure.

It is about a personal choice in the end.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: phantom309
Since I'm usually on the other side of these types of arguments I must confess this is all a bit awkward. I will defer to your obviously superior education and intelligence from here on out. However, let me clarify. The "experience" of Christianity is exactly what I want my kids to have. They will have the rest of their lives to learn the history of the Evil Christian White Male, and I'm sure they will. What they do with their experience and knowledge is up to them.

Agreed. My resposibility for my future kids is to raise them up in the way they should go, not in the way they will go. Even if I want them with all my heart to choose the right thing, that is not my purpose.

**EDIT**
"Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it."
[Proverbs 22:6]

 

[Bryophyte]

I decided when I was younger that I would never date or fvck anyone religious so that the issue wouldn't ever come up. Didn't want to ever risk having to raise a kid with someone whose views were that radically different than mine (with regard to religion.) Now, dealing with fundie in-laws is a whole other topic. *shudder*

 

[Aharami]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: Czar
you are looking at this the wrong way

the boy is 14 year old
his mother is trying to make him do something he doesnt want to do

Idiot. What if the kid doesn't want to go to school? Don't make him do something he doesn't want to? :roll:

you give religious people a bad name

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: DaShen

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: DaShen

Originally posted by: RBachman
Still going at it Vic? How many conversions has your namecalling and condescending attitude gotten you here at AT? Just curious

What the heck? Your first post on the thread and it is namecalling someone about namecalling?

Talk about calling the hypocrite a hypocrite. :roll:

Hello, and welcome to the Anandtech forums! You should familiarize yourself by reading a few threads before posting to get an idea of what the forum and its posters are like. Thanks for visiting!

LOL... okay Mr Post Count : 2877 Joined 08/17/2005. :roll:

Seriously, you are going to get petulant like that?

It's Vic's MO here, every single thread even peripherally about religion attracts him like Michael Jackson to boy scout conventions. I honestly think he has some sort of script alerting him by email when a thread brings up religion so he can come and spew his BS in it, liberally calling people idiots and promoting deism while claiming agnosticism. If you haven't realized this, you must not peruse the forum often - which, given a ppd average of 2.53, isn't surprising.