Christian and Athiest in the same house!

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Philippine Mango

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: DurocShark
Yesterday he finally said, "Why would I want to go listen to a bunch of people worshipping their fantasies?" I had to leave the room. That was a great line! But I didn't want to make my wife look like a fool by laughing.

You sound like a real jerk. Kids don't come up with stuff like that on their own and certainly wouldn't be so disrespectful to his mother unless he was following your example. Congrats.

The kid is 14 years old, yes they do! What do you think his kid is retarded? I say by the time most kids hit the age of 10 or 12, they're about fully aware of their world and environment, it's more or less since kids mature at different rates..

Most intelligent 14 year olds will tell you they aren't sure if there's a god or not. That's an awfully huge question to answer on your own by that age...or any age. The fact that this child has such a concrete viewpoint suggests some level of indoctri....uh....."fair question answering".

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: Philippine Mango

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: DurocShark
Yesterday he finally said, "Why would I want to go listen to a bunch of people worshipping their fantasies?" I had to leave the room. That was a great line! But I didn't want to make my wife look like a fool by laughing.

You sound like a real jerk. Kids don't come up with stuff like that on their own and certainly wouldn't be so disrespectful to his mother unless he was following your example. Congrats.

The kid is 14 years old, yes they do! What do you think his kid is retarded? I say by the time most kids hit the age of 10 or 12, they're about fully aware of their world and environment, it's more or less since kids mature at different rates..

Most intelligent 14 year olds will tell you they aren't sure if there's a god or not. That's an awfully huge question to answer on your own by that age...or any age. The fact that this child has such a concrete viewpoint suggests some level of indoctri....uh....."fair question answering".

I don't typically kick it with 14 year olds so I wouldn't know what 'most' intelligent 14 year olds would say. I never read any studies about this either. Hell, I didn't know that you had to be intelligent to answer that question properly anyway.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
But, like I pointed out in another post, you have age limits in America based on the idea that important decisions should be made by the individual only after they're able to. drinking, military, driving, voting, sex, etc.

Those "important decisions" are not personal decisions but ones that carry societal responsibility. Do you see that?

You cannot disconnect religion from society like that. Ones religious affiliations could GREATLY impact choices of sexuality, voting, possibly military choice, etc. I see your reasoning, but I think you're drawing a line where no clear line exists.

Let me try it ithis way: I can't vote for a particular political party candidate until I'm 18 because I have to be old enough to make those decisions with some knowledge and wisdom. You say who I vote for affects society as a whole. If I'm raised in the KKK or extremist Islamic or whatever, don't those religious choices also impact society? And yet, a parent can choose to put a child into one of those churches, even against their will, while a supergenius who gets a college degree in political science at age 16 can NOT vote. As a less extreme example, being a fundamentalist evangelical gives a strong likelihood that I will be voting Republican, thereby influencing society. Therefore joining a church is influencing society.

 

[CPA]

Duroc, my wife is Christian and I am agnostic. Our religious differences are handled very similar to yours. When my kids ask me about God, I usually tell them to talk to their mother. None of my kids have claimed atheism yet, but none of them are stringent Christians either. In fact, religion does not come up often, so everything is cool so far.

 

[DurocShark]

My son has NEVER heard me speak a mean word about religion. I've been very careful about that. As I said, I want him to make his own choices. He went to church every week until he was 12 or so when he started trying to get out of it. I refused to pressure him about it, though my wife continued to do so. So he *has* experienced it. Even went on a campout with the church once.

Yes, he was being disrespectful. That has been dealt with. The reason I had to leave the room was because I didn't want to encourage that behaviour by laughing. I still think it's a great line, but it was inappropriate in context. That is all.

Those of you calling me names can kiss off. Just because I don't share your beliefs doesn't mean I'm any less of a father.

Anybody know where I can get some Darwin posters?

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I have nothing against any belief system (or lack thereof). I've been on both sides of the argument, and can see where each side comes from. Where I get pissy is when people tell anti-religious people not to generalize or stereotype, and then say that atheists don't believe in anything, or other such nonesense. I mean, nobody on any side doubts that there are whacko extremists. I doubt if even Hero would say that Hitler was a fine example of a Christian.

I also get highly agitated when people try to force others into their own belief system. As much as I loved to debate people on it, I never actively tried to convince people to give up religion when I was an atheist...I just wanted to win the point by point in the argument. It wasn't about proving me right, it was about proving them wrong. I just want everyone to have the information and be able to choose for themselves when they're able to do so.

Hitler wasn't a Christian. He even later in his campaign started to look into Norse gods and into the occult.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: DurocShark
My son has NEVER heard me speak a mean word about religion. I've been very careful about that. As I said, I want him to make his own choices. He went to church every week until he was 12 or so when he started trying to get out of it. I refused to pressure him about it, though my wife continued to do so. So he *has* experienced it. Even went on a campout with the church once.

Yes, he was being disrespectful. That has been dealt with. The reason I had to leave the room was because I didn't want to encourage that behaviour by laughing. I still think it's a great line, but it was inappropriate in context. That is all.

Those of you calling me names can kiss off. Just because I don't share your beliefs doesn't mean I'm any less of a father.

Anybody know where I can get some Darwin posters?

:thumbsup: Good job.

I hope your last sentence is a joke.

 

[DurocShark]

Originally posted by: DaShen

Originally posted by: DurocShark
My son has NEVER heard me speak a mean word about religion. I've been very careful about that. As I said, I want him to make his own choices. He went to church every week until he was 12 or so when he started trying to get out of it. I refused to pressure him about it, though my wife continued to do so. So he *has* experienced it. Even went on a campout with the church once.

Yes, he was being disrespectful. That has been dealt with. The reason I had to leave the room was because I didn't want to encourage that behaviour by laughing. I still think it's a great line, but it was inappropriate in context. That is all.

Those of you calling me names can kiss off. Just because I don't share your beliefs doesn't mean I'm any less of a father.

Anybody know where I can get some Darwin posters?

:thumbsup: Good job.

I hope your last sentence is a joke.

Mostly.

 

[Juno]

just my two cents, it might be your fault because you don't go to church which leads to your son's in losing interest of being a churchgoer.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: Philippine Mango

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: DurocShark
Yesterday he finally said, "Why would I want to go listen to a bunch of people worshipping their fantasies?" I had to leave the room. That was a great line! But I didn't want to make my wife look like a fool by laughing.

You sound like a real jerk. Kids don't come up with stuff like that on their own and certainly wouldn't be so disrespectful to his mother unless he was following your example. Congrats.

The kid is 14 years old, yes they do! What do you think his kid is retarded? I say by the time most kids hit the age of 10 or 12, they're about fully aware of their world and environment, it's more or less since kids mature at different rates..

Most intelligent 14 year olds will tell you they aren't sure if there's a god or not. That's an awfully huge question to answer on your own by that age...or any age. The fact that this child has such a concrete viewpoint suggests some level of indoctri....uh....."fair question answering".

Ok, that's a pretty fair statement. Here's my problem with it.

You don't KNOW that he's an average 14 year old. He may have an IQ of 185 and have finished 5 years of theology study. I'm doubting if he has, but the point is you don't know who he is, or what he has studied, or been exposed to, or what he is capable of understanding. And yet you not only assume he's been indoctrinated by someone else, you immediately blame the father just because he's an atheist. By that reasoning there should be no atheists, since tracing back eventually you have to find the first atheist, and then who indoctrinated him?

No, people are different. There is no one natural human tendency of theology. There are innumerable sources of information and influence in everyones life, even a 14yr old.

 

[datalink7]

My mom is Catholic, my dad is an Atheist. THey were married for 20 years (divorced now, but it had NOTHING to do with religion).

The arrangement as I was growing up is that they wouldn't tell us (me and my sisters) which belief was better. They wouldn't hide each others beliefs. And they wouldn't argue about it between themselves. My mom would get to take us to church every week (which I did till I was 18 even though I've been an Atheist since about 14 years old, and I still go when I visit her), but wouldn't try to drill her beliefs into us as they only way. Basically just have us listen and then decide for ourselves.

I turned out an Atheist
My Oldest Sister turned out a Pagan
My Youngest Sister turned out to be a Christian, though I don't think she has chosen a denomination yet

I found that making us go to church but then letting us decide if we believed it or not worked out alright. In fact, I like going to church sometimes. They say some good stuff and if nothing else you can ignore what is being said and meditate. I've always found a church a good place to reflect.

 

[GeneValgene]

ok...this is completely off topic...

but this thread has one of the highest replies/views ratio i have seen in a long time!

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: GeneValgene
ok...this is completely off topic...

but this thread has one of the highest replies/views ratio i have seen in a long time!

Whatever happened to the Longest Thread Ever. I think it got locked, but did anyone get a prize?

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: DaShen

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I have nothing against any belief system (or lack thereof). I've been on both sides of the argument, and can see where each side comes from. Where I get pissy is when people tell anti-religious people not to generalize or stereotype, and then say that atheists don't believe in anything, or other such nonesense. I mean, nobody on any side doubts that there are whacko extremists. I doubt if even Hero would say that Hitler was a fine example of a Christian.

I also get highly agitated when people try to force others into their own belief system. As much as I loved to debate people on it, I never actively tried to convince people to give up religion when I was an atheist...I just wanted to win the point by point in the argument. It wasn't about proving me right, it was about proving them wrong. I just want everyone to have the information and be able to choose for themselves when they're able to do so.

Hitler wasn't a Christian. He even later in his campaign started to look into Norse gods and into the occult.

You have just proven one of my points. In retrospect we do not consider him a Christian because of his actions. People in America CLAIM to be Christians, but do not necessarily know anything about the religion, or practice it in their own lives.

At the time Hitler most certainly WAS hailed as a fine Christian, and someone doing the work of the Lord. As his power grew he distanced himself from Christianity because he no longer needed that type of support.

from a speech in 1922:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

from Mein Kampf:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

You can find more here.

Bottom line is that what people claim they are and what they are are not the same.

 

[xSauronx]

Originally posted by: Philippine Mango

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: DurocShark
Yesterday he finally said, "Why would I want to go listen to a bunch of people worshipping their fantasies?" I had to leave the room. That was a great line! But I didn't want to make my wife look like a fool by laughing.

You sound like a real jerk. Kids don't come up with stuff like that on their own and certainly wouldn't be so disrespectful to his mother unless he was following your example. Congrats.

The kid is 14 years old, yes they do! What do you think his kid is retarded? I say by the time most kids hit the age of 10 or 12, they're about fully aware of their world and environment, it's more or less since kids mature at different rates..

my mother was complaining, oh about a year ago, about myself and my brothers and how we didnt like going to church or being religious. i pointed out to her that its all well and good for us to do whatever she tells us for years and years, but that most adults hate it when their kids start to think for themselves around the age of 12-ish (give or take) and after that, forcing them to do things, even if you think them right, isnt remotely productive.

she didnt like it, but i dont believe what she does, neither does one of my brothers, the other(youngest of the 4) clearly doesnt care or think about it whatsoever and my sister claims to be a christian, but doesnt act like it.

all this after our parents spent years beating their ideology into our brains. for your wife, she'll try and try, but wont win with your son. i feel worse for him, because hes going to get crap for it from her for years and will probably resent her a bit, as me and my siblings do our parents.

just dont piss her off so much when you defend him that you dont get any

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: DaShen

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I have nothing against any belief system (or lack thereof). I've been on both sides of the argument, and can see where each side comes from. Where I get pissy is when people tell anti-religious people not to generalize or stereotype, and then say that atheists don't believe in anything, or other such nonesense. I mean, nobody on any side doubts that there are whacko extremists. I doubt if even Hero would say that Hitler was a fine example of a Christian.

I also get highly agitated when people try to force others into their own belief system. As much as I loved to debate people on it, I never actively tried to convince people to give up religion when I was an atheist...I just wanted to win the point by point in the argument. It wasn't about proving me right, it was about proving them wrong. I just want everyone to have the information and be able to choose for themselves when they're able to do so.

Hitler wasn't a Christian. He even later in his campaign started to look into Norse gods and into the occult.

You have just proven my point. In retrospect we do not consider him a Christian because of his actions. However at the time he most certainly WAS hailed as a fine Christian, and someone doing the work of the Lord.

from a speech in 1922:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

from Mein Kampf:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

You can find more here.

Like I posted before, power/prestige will corrupt anyone, but it is also clear that he wasn't a Christian, but since many of the people he spoke to were, he used it as a political platform, till he had enough power to reject it.

I could say that about some old political leader in the time of the Crusades as well, who, in essense, did not care about Christianity, but the wealth and plunder gained from the raping and pillaging.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: DurocShark
As some of you may know, I'm an athiest and my wife is Christian. We've always respected each others beliefs

Looks like you two are in just as great of shape as the Country. Enjoy

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: DaShen

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: DaShen

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I have nothing against any belief system (or lack thereof). I've been on both sides of the argument, and can see where each side comes from. Where I get pissy is when people tell anti-religious people not to generalize or stereotype, and then say that atheists don't believe in anything, or other such nonesense. I mean, nobody on any side doubts that there are whacko extremists. I doubt if even Hero would say that Hitler was a fine example of a Christian.

I also get highly agitated when people try to force others into their own belief system. As much as I loved to debate people on it, I never actively tried to convince people to give up religion when I was an atheist...I just wanted to win the point by point in the argument. It wasn't about proving me right, it was about proving them wrong. I just want everyone to have the information and be able to choose for themselves when they're able to do so.

Hitler wasn't a Christian. He even later in his campaign started to look into Norse gods and into the occult.

You have just proven my point. In retrospect we do not consider him a Christian because of his actions. However at the time he most certainly WAS hailed as a fine Christian, and someone doing the work of the Lord.

from a speech in 1922:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

from Mein Kampf:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

You can find more here.

Like I posted before, power/prestige will corrupt anyone, but it is also clear that he wasn't a Christian, but since many of the people he spoke to were, he used it as a political platform, till he had enough power to reject it.

I could say that about some old political leader in the time of the Crusades as well, who, in essense, did not care about Christianity, but the wealth and plunder gained from the raping and pillaging.

*nod* And I would make a very similar argument about Bushco.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: DaShen
Like I posted before, power/prestige will corrupt anyone, but it is also clear that he wasn't a Christian, but since many of the people he spoke to were, he used it as a political platform, till he had enough power to reject it.

I could say that about some old political leader in the time of the Crusades as well, who, in essense, did not care about Christianity, but the wealth and plunder gained from the raping and pillaging.

*nod* And I would make a very similar argument about Bushco.

Don't get me started on Bush Jr. Bush Sr. was alright. His agenda did put us in an economic boom, but Jr. is screwing us to the wall. I remember 3 years ago when it was scary to even talk anything negative about Bush and his campaign (yes I mean campaign). Maybe something good will come out of it, but it is looking like another failed attempt like Korea or Vietnam, except even more resistant.

**EDIT**

I had some people even make it seem like not supporting Bush was being unChristian. :roll: It is ridiculous how brainwashed some people are.

A reverend I knew started to talk about politics (which I don't care because it was a one on one talk, which I allowed, and he brought up politics). After a while of talking about it, he claimed the media is totally left right now ("Dang, secular humanists" ), that I need to be more informed, and that I was a pacifist and a tree hugger (like those last two are bad things, I don't think the war was right, but if I was called into duty I would go and I try to commute on the bus instead of taking a big clunky car to work because its cheaper and saves the environment). I just didn't agree with the war. He even went on to say that he would support torture as long as it helped protect this great nation. <This was in reference to Abu-grave which was more than interrogating, but downright abuse for fun not for information> (Least of all to say that my respect for the guy greatly lessened after that).

 

[datalink7]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: DurocShark
Well, lately my wife has been trying to get our son to go to church and participate in the teen ministry's events. Yesterday he finally said, "Why would I want to go listen to a bunch of people worshipping their fantasies?" I had to leave the room. That was a great line! But I didn't want to make my wife look like a fool by laughing.

All the proof one needs that atheism is a competing faith can be seen in the instinctual need of its followers to attack other faiths.
Were it a logical, scientific belief (like agnosticism for example), it would be tolerant.

Isn't it kind of ironic you are attacking Atheist beliefs in this post?

And not all Atheists need to attack other faiths. I don't do so. No Atheist I know personally (certainly I've met some on this site) do so. My dad (atheist) lived with my mom (catholic) for 20 years and never once mentioned religion that I recall.

You sound more like what you are trying to describe, rationalizing your belief system so as to belittle others.

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: DurocShark
Yesterday he finally said, "Why would I want to go listen to a bunch of people worshipping their fantasies?" I had to leave the room. That was a great line! But I didn't want to make my wife look like a fool by laughing.

You sound like a real jerk. Kids don't come up with stuff like that on their own and certainly wouldn't be so disrespectful to his mother unless he was following your example. Congrats.

Everyone already knows you're a complete idiot and fool, why do you find it necessary to constantly remind us of this fact?

BULLSHIT kids don't come up with stuff on their own. Many don't, many do. It's tremendously influenced by personality and intellect, not just environment. Furthermore with an involved Christian in the house there was obviously an equal chance to swing either way.

You're just biased, and a bigot, and an asshole, and an idiot. How you find room to be so many things is beyond me, but oh well.

You want disrespectful? Hounding someone to be a part of something they don't believe in out of your own insecurities. Using guilt, especially as a mother, to brainwash your own children. There's plenty of disrespect going on in that house all right, and like usualy it's mostly on the part of the religious.

heroofpellinor should of seen what things my bro came up with when he was 14....theyre a damn sight worse than telling your mum he hates bible bashers

And what kind of father figure did he have in his life?

a very good one thanks, my dad is a good man so dont start with the insults please. most of my dads half of the family are religious, his twin brother is and his twin brothers wife was very religious till she died of cancer. my dad doesnt go to church or anything but he does respect christianity and films based on and around the bible seem to be his favourites...hes even got a 10 vhs edition of some bible story somewhere. and he has watched them all.

 

[datalink7]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: swimscubasteve
WTH? Why would you think that looking at laws from opposite viewpoints is a good idea? Why don't you just look at the reasons for which the law is being proposed.

In this case, although impractical, it seems like a good idea to allow children not to be brainwashed with something as subjective as religion at such an early age.

Critical thinking is clearly not your strong point. Here's a tip: atheism IS a religion. This thread is all about the brainwashed calling the brainwashed brainwashed. Try to learn to play nice with people of other religions, ok?

Atheism is hardly a religion. At least in my case, it is simply the lack of a religion. I don't ever think about it. I don't have an active disbelief in God... I just don't believe in God.

 

[CKent]

I could never even date, much less marry, a paracticing religious person.

Kudos to the OP for being a bigger man (so to speak) than your wife; for remaining neutral as she shoved religion down their throats, for remaining calm as she yelled and screamed about the injustice of there existing people different than her. I don't really have much advice aside from getting a warm blanket and some pillows that will work well with the couch. Worst part about it is you can't argue logic with a woman, it's like teaching one to park.

 

[phantom309]

For what it's worth, my wife and I have the same situation. We agreed that our kids should go to church and be exposed to Christian teaching early on. What they decide to believe as adults is entirely up to them. The reason isn't just spiritual. For better or worse, Christian values are an enormous part of Western culture. Whether one agrees with them or not, it's vital to understand them well if one is to understand mainstream America.

I know that doesn't really address the OP's dilemma, but that's how we dealt with it.

 

[DurocShark]

Originally posted by: phantom309
For what it's worth, my wife and I have the same situation. We agreed that our kids should go to church and be exposed to Christian teaching early on. What they decide to believe as adults is entirely up to them. The reason isn't just spiritual. For better or worse, Christian values are an enormous part of Western culture. Whether one agrees with them or not, it's vital to understand them well if one is to understand mainstream America.

Excellent point, and I agree completely.

Our western morals and values are deeply rooted in Christianity and to a lesser extent most religions.