dude, there's a limit on placebo. you can't keep calling placebo everytime chiropractic works. also, they do sham adjustments vs real adjustments and sham adjustments are more efficacious (as i said before).
dullard
Elite Member
- May 21, 2001
- 26,033
- 4,676
- 126
Speaking chiropractics, isn't this the best name ever: buettenbackchiro. That guy probably new from the day he was born that he'd be working on butts and backs.
:roll: you're full of crap. you're making shit up and then want to put the burden of proof on me? eat one.
you can't just sit there on your fat ass making up crap like that and try to misinform everyone.
Chirobase.org
A site affiliated with Quackwatch.com, the site most Chiros love to hate. Very useful indeed. I discovered this one a few years back after I was cheated out of thousands of dollars by a chiro.
A site affiliated with Quackwatch.com, the site most Chiros love to hate. Very useful indeed. I discovered this one a few years back after I was cheated out of thousands of dollars by a chiro.
Eits, a subluxation is a displacement of the soft tissue structures that causes a malalignment of a joint. The classic example is the subluxation of the radial head (proximal) due to the shifting of the anterior band of the elbow, this is called a nursemaids elbow. With regard to spinal facet anatomy, a subluxation occurs when cartalagenous structures surrounding the facets become displaced causing one or more of the facets to widen (much like sticking a book under a leg of a 4 legged table), the interverterbral muscles one the side of the subluxation are undertension and cause malalignment of the funtional units above and below. Some data may also support the thought that individual facets joints may swell due to joint effusion, leading to a similiar malfunction. Unfortunately, we do not currently have the imaging technology to confirm or refute these theories.
These paterns and shifts can be felt by a skilled and trained manipulator and specific treatments utilized to eleviate the subluxation. Unfortunately, just as many physicians fail to take the time to fully examine a patient and may prescribe treatments that are inappropriate, many chiropractors rush to treat before they have diagnosed, some were never able to master the palpatory skills needed to diagnose the problem.
Being an osteopathic physician,(DO) (practicing Emergency Med) I would love to find a good chiropractor in my area, but am so far unsuccessfull. Even the DO family docs in my area do not manipulate.
These paterns and shifts can be felt by a skilled and trained manipulator and specific treatments utilized to eleviate the subluxation. Unfortunately, just as many physicians fail to take the time to fully examine a patient and may prescribe treatments that are inappropriate, many chiropractors rush to treat before they have diagnosed, some were never able to master the palpatory skills needed to diagnose the problem.
Being an osteopathic physician,(DO) (practicing Emergency Med) I would love to find a good chiropractor in my area, but am so far unsuccessfull. Even the DO family docs in my area do not manipulate.
i was confused because you said something like "why didn't go to school a few more years"... chiropractic school takes longer than med school, that's why i was confused.
after being all about med school for a semester, i realized that they weren't really treating anything other than symptoms and the only way to actually FIX things in the medical world was to be a surgeon. i didn't like the idea of being a surgeon because i was more family oriented and a didn't want to always be on call.
so, i found out about chiropractic and realized that you could actually treat people's problems rather than just symptoms without having to drug people. so, i enrolled in chiropractic school and realized i was learning the same stuff as med school students were learning, just with more of an emphasis on anatomy and physiology and less on pharmacology.
wanting to treat people was never really about the money for me... it was about the happiness i feel whenever i make someone else's life better.
right, i get that, but i can only explain something so many times and link so many things before it gets really old. pubmed is there for a reason. if you people are in such doubt about how effective chiropractic is as it pertains to a certain condition, look it up for yourselves. also, use common sense. if chiropractic were snake oil, how in the hell is it getting more credibility by the year? why are more of the population seeing chiropractors with each passing year? why do insurance companies start covering chiropractic care? why is chiropractic care being implemented at every v.a. hospital in the country by the year 2011?
i can completely understand how something you thought your dad used to do to you as a kid for free could become a lucrative profession, but you need to understand that there's science behind it and there is more research on the way... that, and there's a specificity to chiropractic adjustments that takes time and training to be good at.
it isn't useful. it's misinformation. it twists things to make it sound like all chiropractors are quacks and it ignores benefits of chiropractic. the guy who runs the site is a quack anyways.
yes, some chiropractors are cheats. but the same goes for any other profession. the only reason why chiropractic is so criticized is because of their agenda to eliminate the competition (google "wilk vs ama supreme court").
chiropractic school:
4 academic years bachelor's
5 academic years chiropractic school
1 year of internship in outpatient setting
continued education every couple years to maintain license
med school:
4 academic years bachelor's
4 academic years medicine
avg of 3.5 years for residency
continued education every couple years to maintain license
med school students have to go through so much residency because what they do is save lives. chiropractors don't save lives or deal with tons of chemical coctails and drugs with dosages and whatnot to memorize... medical doctors do. all chiropractors have to deal with is maintaining the knowledge of the human body and what nerves affect what.
State requirement vary but for MD/DO continuing medical education requirements for the state of NJ, PA and NY its about 50 hours per year. I don't know about DC's.
Gibsons
Lifer
- Aug 14, 2001
- 12,530
- 35
- 91
I have looked it up, and I'm unconvinced. Got a link?
It is? I've heard astrologists make similar arguments.
Why are more people buying Michael Jackson albums? Why do so many people buy this pile of BS book?
You're really not helping your case here.
Lawsuits force them to? Not necessarily anything to do with science, this doesn't constitute evidence.
What?
Don't tell me "I need to understand there's science behind it." That's an absolute crock and a deflection. You asking me to have faith in you and you've already lied at least once.
SHOW me the science behind it.
GodlessAstronomer
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2007
- 17,009
- 5
- 0
Here you go then, this study is a meta analysis of the best research on chiropractic to date. Take a look at section 6, efficacy. This research clearly demonstrates a total lack of efficacy for any type of ailment beyond neck and back pain, and for those problems no study favors chiropractic over standard treatments. If you have a better study or meta analysis to contribute I will happily read it, but for now as far as I'm concerned this is check mate.
Mo0o
Lifer
- Jul 31, 2001
- 24,227
- 3
- 76
You probalby should have done a little bit more research before settling on that ridiculous statement. It's a shame because your chiro training probably just perpetuated the misconception that MDs just hand out a lot of drugs to mask symptoms rather than cure patients
-link for what? what condition?
- yeah, it is.
http://www.chiroweb.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=18246
http://money.cnn.com/magazines...2006/snapshots/14.html
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos071.htm
- stephen davis?
- insurances are covering chiropractic care because the literature, currently, supports that it's helpful for treating back injuries and one of the main causes for people to take time off work is for back injuries.
- i haven't lied about anything
- open an anatomy/physiology/neurology textbook. that's the only way i can actually "show" you the science behind why what we do works.
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...ord1=%22love+my+job%22
i bet you think i was lying when i wrote this, or that somehow the patient placebo'ed herself out of her wheelchair and standing upright and walking? she couldn't placebo effect herself better after medications or surgeries, she had to do it after chiropractic care... something about which she was completely skeptical that her daughter talked her into trying.
there are lots of stories i could tell you about patients i've treated, but they probably won't do you any good because i could either be lying or it could be placebo to you.
the fact of the matter is that there's not really much i can do to help convince you because you're not going to accept anything that isn't "medically proven" (even though we're talking apples and oranges when we talk medical and chiropractic, really). all i can ask is that you keep an open mind and whenever there is finally more funding for chiropractic care, you look into it. it might take a decade or so, but it'll happen.
coloumb
Diamond Member
- Oct 9, 1999
- 4,069
- 0
- 81
Honestly? I just can't see myself relaxing enough to let them do their work [I'd be too afraid something would pop out of place would could cause more serious problems]. I'm the type of person who only sees a doctor if it's absolutely only necessary [I think the last doctor I saw was for a broken wrist injury that happened about 20 years ago].
Granted - they are [probably] experts in their field - but I'd rather not take the chance of them breaking something that doesn't need to be fixed.
Granted - they are [probably] experts in their field - but I'd rather not take the chance of them breaking something that doesn't need to be fixed.
it was done by a medical doctor. find one by a chiropractor that says the same thing.
not checkmate. not even close.
In defense of Eits, we need to realize a few things. Evidence based medicine is really an ideal we physicians attempt to achieve. Somethings are just difficult to study so our amassed data is limited.
Secondly it is rediculous to ignore the fact that the body is a machine in motion and that biophysics and physiatry have only scratched the surface of understanding this machine. Just because these fields are in there infancy doesnot mean that they should be abandoned.
Thirdly, clinical experience and anecdotal understanding were the only tools of physicians in the past prior to our attempts to objectively study medical theory and treatments. Chiropractic/manipulative medicine is as yet relatively uninvestigated, which does not mean it is invalid, just that its theories and treatments require more investigation. This also doesnot mean that it holds no place in modern medical treatment. If as an emergency physician, I could not use my experience and the thousands of theories regarding physiology and pathology and was limited to specific treatments supported by large randomized controled studies then I would be without treatment options for many disease processes. There is a reason it is called the art of medicine, and why you simply can't put your arm in a machine and it spit out a pill to treat what ills you.
Secondly it is rediculous to ignore the fact that the body is a machine in motion and that biophysics and physiatry have only scratched the surface of understanding this machine. Just because these fields are in there infancy doesnot mean that they should be abandoned.
Thirdly, clinical experience and anecdotal understanding were the only tools of physicians in the past prior to our attempts to objectively study medical theory and treatments. Chiropractic/manipulative medicine is as yet relatively uninvestigated, which does not mean it is invalid, just that its theories and treatments require more investigation. This also doesnot mean that it holds no place in modern medical treatment. If as an emergency physician, I could not use my experience and the thousands of theories regarding physiology and pathology and was limited to specific treatments supported by large randomized controled studies then I would be without treatment options for many disease processes. There is a reason it is called the art of medicine, and why you simply can't put your arm in a machine and it spit out a pill to treat what ills you.
GodlessAstronomer
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2007
- 17,009
- 5
- 0
Holy shit you're not serious? Fucking look the author up, he's a professor of complementary medicine and runs a journal called Focus on Alternative and Complementary Therapies! He is a proponent of complementary medicine but examines it from an evidence-based point of view.
If you think there's something wrong with the study itself, please feel free to tell me. Otherwise your arguments are nothing but ad hominem, and a misguided ad hominem at that!
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