chicago must hire 111 black fire fighters

[zerocool84]

Wow Chicago is going to bankrupt its way into oblivion.

IL is a the most corrupt place in existence...

Shens, nothing beats Cali. We`re #1 in everything, especially government corruption. Hell, look at the city of Bell.

 

[shortylickens]

Isn't 64 just as arbitrary of a number?

A long time ago somebody probably figured out it was a good way to eliminate a lot of applicants quickly so they could focus on the guys who might have a shot at doing the job (on top of the 6 or 12 months of probationary time). Given Chicagos public school system I suspect 64 probably wiped out a lot of people.

 

[brianmanahan]

well thats the $64 question...

 

[classy]

If I am reading this correctly. The city said the reason they hired so few african americans was because only 11% scored higher than 89. But they didn't choose based soley on score, they randomly chose 1800. So it would appear that the city excluded many African Americans who scored high enough on the test but weren't hired.

In the article the 2005 ruling pointed to the cutoff point as being meaningless because it was being used as an excuse. Further the article points at the end

After the judge's decision, the city, which hadn't given another test since 1995 because of ongoing court challenges, gave another test in 2006. But that test was given on a pass/fail basis and that all passing applicants, and not just the top ones, were processed randomly for additional tests such as physical agility and background checks.

Which with the added aspects it includes more than just random. In none of the rulings was the city shot down for not hiring failed test applicants, it was shot down because they didn't even hire many who qualified. I guess the judges had a hard time buying the random logic.

 

[etrigan420]

If it's true that:

>>"...the city knew the cutoff point was meaningless and would disproportionately exclude blacks from the pool of candidates most likely to be hired."<<

then *fuck* Chicago. Fuck them in their stupid faces.

 

[brianmanahan]

test scores are never menaingless

 

[Nebor]

It seems crazy to me that the system is based on "random" at all, instead of actually choosing the best applicants. But random is fair, so I don't really see what classy is getting at.

 

[olds]

Back around 1990 my brother was sitting at the top of the list for full time Firefighters for the California Department of Forestry. He was seasonal at the time. They kept passing him over to hire females.

 

[Farang]

If it's true that:

>>"...the city knew the cutoff point was meaningless and would disproportionately exclude blacks from the pool of candidates most likely to be hired."<<

then *fuck* Chicago. Fuck them in their stupid faces.

My first reaction to this story is that the lawsuit is bullshit, but this line stood out to me as well. It sounds like the judge found the city was using the test for the purpose of excluding blacks, NOT that blacks were due compensation because a qualifying test happened to disqualify them. I'd like to see this point expanded upon, maybe it has been in another story.

 

[OCGuy]

Shens, nothing beats Cali. We`re #1 in everything, especially government corruption. Hell, look at the city of Bell.

The difference is they were called to task for it. Cali has nothing on IL.

 

[Capt Caveman]

If I am reading this correctly. The city said the reason they hired so few african americans was because only 11&#37; scored higher than 89. But they didn't choose based soley on score, they randomly chose 1800. So it would appear that the city excluded many African Americans who scored high enough on the test but weren't hired.

In the article the 2005 ruling pointed to the cutoff point as being meaningless because it was being used as an excuse. Further the article points at the end



Which with the added aspects it includes more than just random. In none of the rulings was the city shot down for not hiring failed test applicants, it was shot down because they didn't even hire many who qualified. I guess the judges had a hard time buying the random logic.

Correct. People here don't seem to understand this passage of the article:

Because only 11 percent of the African Americans scored 89 or better, the overwhelming number of applicants hired from that test were white.
Karsh said the test was discriminatory because there was no evidence that the applicant who scored 89 or better would be any better firefighter than another who scored a 64, and in fact in 2005 a federal judge said the test discriminated against black candidates. In her ruling the judge said the city knew the cutoff point was meaningless and would disproportionately exclude blacks from the pool of candidates most likely to be hired.

"If the city of Chicago had selected firefighters at random from all the people who passed the test it would have gotten a pool of equally capable firefighters and the pool would have been more integrated," said Karsh said. He said he did not know when the hiring might begin, but said that he expected it to start soon.

After the judge's decision, the city, which hadn't given another test since 1995 because of ongoing court challenges, gave another test in 2006. But that test was given on a pass/fail basis and that all passing applicants, and not just the top ones, were processed randomly for additional tests such as physical agility and background checks.

Good to see a wrong corrected.

 

[brianmanahan]

theres nothing wrong with hiring based solely on test scores and randomization, its just a patchetic judge ruling against logic.

 

[classy]

It seems crazy to me that the system is based on "random" at all, instead of actually choosing the best applicants. But random is fair, so I don't really see what classy is getting at.

Here is the point. If I have 30,000 people take the test. 21000 white, 3000 hispanic, and 6000 black. And they all have the same 11% score 89 or better.

Thats means I get

2300 Whites
330 Hispanic
660 Black

I have 1800 jobs, explain to me how you randomly choose 1800 if you are just using test scores? I see the judges point on the city's 64 passing score too. With no other criteria, how can one say a person scored 64 would not be a better firefighter than someone who scored 89? I have a several friends who are firefighters, fighting fires goes way beyond a written test.

 

[Nebor]

Correct. People here don't seem to understand this passage of the article:



Good to see a wrong corrected.

I think I understand it (I could be wrong, I have 4 learning disabilities,) but if they would have just said that the "passing" score was 89 instead of 64, it wouldn't have changed anything and this case wouldn't have a leg to stand on (not that it does now...)

 

[Svnla]

I so want to comment, but I know anything I say will get me banned by the mods.

I hate being white and thinking for myself. Its such a burden, especially on a public forum.

You are not alone.

Imagine being Asians, the so being label as "perfect" minority. Study your tail off, do all the extra curriculum activities, score high on all standardize tests, and on and on, yet still lose out to other lower achieving minority group(s) due to set aside program(s).

What happens to let pick the best of the best?

Shens, nothing beats Cali. We`re #1 in everything, especially government corruption. Hell, look at the city of Bell.

Are you sure you can beat Lousyiana? The state that has the former Gov. in prison (I think he is out now), not one, not two, but several Insurance Commissioners in prision or in trouble with the law, former Congressman indicted for kickback, and on and on.

 

[Nebor]

Here is the point. If I have 30,000 people take the test. 21000 white, 3000 hispanic, and 6000 black. And they all have the same 11% score 89 or better.

Thats means I get

2300 Whites
330 Hispanic
660 Black

I have 1800 jobs, explain to me how you randomly choose 1800 if you are just using test scores? I see the judges point on the city's 64 passing score too. With no other criteria, how can one say a person scored 64 would not be a better firefighter than someone who scored 89? I have a several friends who are firefighters, fighting fires goes way beyond a written test.

I seriously cannot grasp what you're getting at. Maybe more black people should have applied to be firefighters, and then you'd have 15000 black, 2300 white and 15 hispanic.

You chose 1800 because that's how many job openings you had. You decided the passing score was 89, so then you randomly select (I have no idea why they randomly select...) until you fill your job openings. It's not white people's fault (or the City of Chicago's fault) that so many more white people applied to be firefighters.

 

[Capt Caveman]

I think I understand it (I could be wrong, I have 4 learning disabilities,) but if they would have just said that the "passing" score was 89 instead of 64, it wouldn't have changed anything and this case wouldn't have a leg to stand on (not that it does now...)

My guess would be yes. They conducted another test in 2006 that was pass/fail. It doesn't state what the score that was necessary to pass but it does say that that all that passed(not just the top scores) were able to proceed to physical testing and background checking.

 

[Nebor]

You are not alone.

Imagine being Asians, the so being label as "perfect" minority. Study your tail off, do all the extra curriculum activities, score high on all standardize tests, and on and on, yet still lose out to other lower achieving minority group(s) due to set aside program(s).

What happens to let pick the best of the best?

I'm having a hard time understanding why they chose randomly instead of just picking the best applicants.

 

[Capt Caveman]

You are not alone.

Imagine being Asians, the so being label as "perfect" minority. Study your tail off, do all the extra curriculum activities, score high on all standardize tests, and on and on, yet still lose out to other lower achieving minority group(s) due to set aside program(s).

What happens to let pick the best of the best?

Is scoring at the top of an aptitude test more important than scoring at the top of the physical requirements test to be a fire fighter?

Why not have the the physical requirements testing be completed first and then take the top 11&#37; in the physical requirements test be allowed to take the aptitude test next and have those become fire fighters?

 

[davmat787]

What a massive expense for the city of Chicago. Paying 111 guys a pension isn't going to be cheap, nevermind the upfront lump payment. It'd be a shame if they had to close fire stations due to lack of funding because of this.

A pension prorated to 1995, no less. How sad.

 

[shortylickens]

I'm having a hard time understanding why they chose randomly instead of just picking the best applicants.

Probably because of retarded liberal PC laws. Not enough blacks were getting in because of low scores, so they opened up the range and then picked randomly from the top half, thus increasing the odds blacks could get it.

To me it seems for a long time substandard people have been getting in already. Now the NAACP or ACLU or whoever is complaining AGAIN because not ENOUGH substandard people of color arent getting in.

Fucking sad. 1980's PC is no longer liberal enough. Now we need new standards for white guilt.

 

[mrjminer]

I'm having a hard time understanding why they chose randomly instead of just picking the best applicants.

Like others mentioned, they probably just chose 89% to get a pool they could pick from randomly.

Personally, I think the FD lawyer must really suck. You could argue based off any circumstance and win this case easily:
Option 1: If out of the top 1800 scores, only 10 were black candidates, then say they chose randomly to give them a greater likelihood of being accepted.
Option 2: If out of the top 1800 scores, 500 were black candidates, then say they chose randomly because the top 1800 scores did not accurately reflect the percentages of total applicants from each respective race, so they felt they should choose randomly in an attempt to be more equal, while still being fair.

Win.

 

[classy]

I think I understand it (I could be wrong, I have 4 learning disabilities,) but if they would have just said that the "passing" score was 89 instead of 64, it wouldn't have changed anything and this case wouldn't have a leg to stand on (not that it does now...)

You are missing the whole point. The one judge found fault in the city's argument saying 64 was the cutoff, so they chose to take the top 1800 who scored 89 or better. That was the city's excuse why they hired, obivously far less African Americans. The judge didn't buy that argument. We know 11% of African Americans passed the threshhold of 89. But more than likely they chose a much smaller percentage of blacks who did qualify. That comes back to the question, how do randomly choose 1800 who all scored high enough on the test, soley based only on the test.

This really isn't hard to understand. Its like the draft lottery, of course the teams with the most balls usually get the top picks. This is not about inferior test candidates, this is about how or why did a black candidate lose out to a white one if they both passed the threshhold of 89. Also in sum up, the city has lost this case 3 times and this time at Federal Appeals level, so this has been looked at by multiple judges.

Hey the city is happy, they only have to hire 111 blacks vs a previous ruling of 132.

 

[QueBert]

I'm having a hard time understanding why they chose randomly instead of just picking the best applicants.

They didn't pick randomly though, they simply said they did. Which is so when the claims of not enough minorities getting hired come up, they can go "look, we did it randomly, we can't help if it 800 black people applied but only 2 got hired. Umm it was totally random!" The numbers are disproportionate to the number of applications, even when you factor in only 11% scoring higher than 89. I'm not saying 111 more should be hired for no reason, but they should look at the 11% that score sufficiently high on the test and compare the percentage to how many white people got the job. I bet the numbers won't jive.

 

[James3shin]

*sigh*