Carson: Islam not consistent with Constitution; no Muslim should ever be President

[sandorski]

so instead of answering the question you deflect... par for course with you isnt it.

No deflection. I put the discussion back on track by giving an example that wasn't cherry picked to make Christianity look innocent of similar nonsense. Christianity has the same tendency towards barbarity as Islam, even if it does not do it on all the same issues.

 

[sandorski]

Because I think most atheist are too full of themselves to believe in a higher power.

...and?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Can you explain why Christians who created a country founded on Christianity not only authored the 1st amendment which prohibited making any law respecting the establishment of any religion but that they also specifically stated that no religious test should be requird to hold the highest office in the land and those below it (article VI paragraph 3)?

They made these laws because they saw the dangers and the damage caused when a Church was intertwined with the State. Again, do not confuse the Church and religion in this respect. The founders had no qualms about integrating Christian principles into our laws when they felt those principles were fair to all.

To put my perspective another way, suppose some Muslims founded a country according to Islamic principles, morals, and values. Even if they made laws that demanded a separation of Church and State - something highly unlikely in an Islamic country (which is also why Islam is not compatible with our Constitution) - nobody would try to claim that the country was not founded on Islam. They'd be looked at as fools. It's no different when Christians founded this country.

 

[Darwin333]

The irony. Criticize Islam in a majority muslim country, I dare anyone. That alone gives credence to what Carson said.

Are you saying that we would become a majority Muslim country if we elect a Muslim president? Or just that a Muslim president would erode our civil liberties? Frankly, our Christian presidents have been doing a really swell job at that already.

 

[MongGrel]

Because I think most atheist are too full of themselves to believe in a higher power.

Still waiting for a higher power to show up.

I doubt it will.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...&mid=5ED6056CEA74CDC68B985ED6056CEA74CDC68B98

 

[ivwshane]

They made these laws because they saw the dangers and the damage caused when a Church was intertwined with the State. Again, do not confuse the Church and religion in this respect. The founders had no qualms about integrating Christian principles into our laws when they felt those principles were fair to all.

To put my perspective another way, suppose some Muslims founded a country according to Islamic principles, morals, and values. Even if they made laws that demanded a separation of Church and State - something highly unlikely in an Islamic country (which is also why Islam is not compatible with our Constitution) - nobody would try to claim that the country was not founded on Islam. They'd be looked at as fools. It's no different when Christians founded this country.

Interesting...you tell me not to confuse church and religion and then proceed to confuse church and religion as it relates to the founding fathers intentions. The word "church" doesn't exist in either passage I referenced.

I suppose you have an explanation for that as well.

Christian principals and values aren't unique to Christianity so I'm not sure you have a solid argument especially considering many of the 10 commandments didn't make it into the constitution. Hell! Some of the 10 commandments are outright contradictions to the constitution and it's amendments.

 

[Vic]

I don't know what is this all about. Kind of big BS going on, and they were pretty happy to catch some crap on that candidate.

He absolutely said nothing wrong, especially in a country of free speech.

You are aware that he's running for President of the United States, yes?

 

[sandorski]

They made these laws because they saw the dangers and the damage caused when a Church was intertwined with the State. Again, do not confuse the Church and religion in this respect. The founders had no qualms about integrating Christian principles into our laws when they felt those principles were fair to all.

To put my perspective another way, suppose some Muslims founded a country according to Islamic principles, morals, and values. Even if they made laws that demanded a separation of Church and State - something highly unlikely in an Islamic country (which is also why Islam is not compatible with our Constitution) - nobody would try to claim that the country was not founded on Islam. They'd be looked at as fools. It's no different when Christians founded this country.

The Principles used to found the US are from Enlightenment Secular philosophers. They are not "Christian".

 

[fskimospy]

Is your assumption that Muslims would only have seen the Arabic version?

No, I'm saying it is irrelevant because we are talking about how we viewed our own country in 1797, not what Muslims thought of it.

Because the 1797 treaty was violated, essentially became null and void, and was replaced by a new treaty. You do know what the word "superseded" means?

The only way that would be meaningful isbif you are arguing that in 1797 the founders didn't think we were founded as a Christian nation but then changed their mind in subsequent years. Is that what you're saying?

Already asked and answered.


We went out of our way to ensure there was no State religion and to ensure that the Church and State remained separate. The Church != religion, specifically in this case the Christian religion. In fact, if you read just about any writings of this country's founders you'll see just how heavily the Christian faith influenced their decisions. This nation was founded on Christian principles and morals because the men who founded it were Christians. Claiming otherwise is foolish

But, whatever. Keep ignoring that man behind the curtain.

Now you're backpedaling.

 

[pcgeek11]

Still waiting for a higher power to show up.

I doubt it will.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...&mid=5ED6056CEA74CDC68B985ED6056CEA74CDC68B98

OK.

 

[Darwin333]

tell that to them and see what happens.

What's your point?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

No, I'm saying it is irrelevant because we are talking about how we viewed our own country in 1797, not what Muslims thought of it.

And I'm saying it was done to appease the Muslims we had this treaty with. But you know what? Both of us are speculating because neither of us can go back and prove our speculations.

The only way that would be meaningful isbif you are arguing that in 1797 the founders didn't think we were founded as a Christian nation but then changed their mind in subsequent years. Is that what you're saying?

Please enlighten everyone. If this statement was such an important statement of how we allegedly viewed our country, why was it subsequently omitted from the superseding treaty? In fact, a reiteration would have had some meaning and importance. They did not reiterate.

Now you're backpedaling.

Not at all. You're just a hard-headed tool who can't seem to help himself from diving head first into semantic arguments.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

The Principles used to found the US are from Enlightenment Secular philosophers. They are not "Christian".

You've clearly never read a single thing from Washington or Adams.

 

[Darwin333]

We went out of our way to ensure there was no State religion and to ensure that the Church and State remained separate. The Church != religion, specifically in this case the Christian religion. In fact, if you read just about any writings of this country's founders you'll see just how heavily the Christian faith influenced their decisions. This nation was founded on Christian principles and morals because the men who founded it were Christians.

Exactly which principles would those be?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Exactly which principles would those be?

Read their writings and your question will be answered.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Interesting...you tell me not to confuse church and religion and then proceed to confuse church and religion as it relates to the founding fathers intentions. The word "church" doesn't exist in either passage I referenced.

I suppose you have an explanation for that as well.

What is "an establishment of religion?"

Religion by itself, without a controlling authority, has no teeth. Religion itself is not and never has been the danger. When religion is dangerous it is always an establishment of religion (iow, a Church), one generally controlled by greedy and/or less than scrupulous persons, that is the danger.

Christian principals and values aren't unique to Christianity so I'm not sure you have a solid argument especially considering many of the 10 commandments didn't make it into the constitution. Hell! Some of the 10 commandments are outright contradictions to the constitution and it's amendments.

Why do Christian detractors always dwell on the old testament?

And, no, many Christian principles and values aren't unique to Christianity. Many are what could be considered universal principles, those that are right regardless of your upbringing. Except that our forefathers were raised as Christians and that is where those principles were implemented. I gave up Catholicism in my early teens after I realized how corrupt and full of shit the Church was. That doesn't mean that it didn't mold my principles and morals. It did.

 

[Darwin333]

Read their writings and your question will be answered.

I prefer to judge people not by their words but by their actions.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

I prefer to judge people not by their words but by their actions.

I prefer to judge people by their words and their actions. When their words match their actions they can generally be trusted. When they don't, well...

 

[ivwshane]

What is "an establishment of religion?"

Religion by itself, without a controlling authority, has no teeth. Religion itself is not and never has been the danger. When religion is dangerous it is always an establishment of religion (iow, a Church), one generally controlled by greedy and/or less than scrupulous persons, that is the danger.


Why do Christian detractors always dwell on the old testament?

By all means point to the principals of Christianity that are unique and don't mirror the 10 commandments.

And, no, many Christian principles and values aren't unique to Christianity. Many are what could be considered universal principles, those that are right regardless of your upbringing. Except that our forefathers were raised as Christians and that is where those principles were implemented. I gave up Catholicism in my early teens after I realized how corrupt and full of shit the Church was. That doesn't mean that it didn't mold my principles and morals. It did.

Good lord! Are you high because you are spinning!

What I hear you saying is that you only have morals because you grew up catholic? Do I need to explain to you how poor your logic is?

You just admitted that Christian beliefs aren't unique, you just used an example of how you aren't catholic and yet your morals align with those of Catholicism and yet when it's explained to you that the founding fathers didn't build this nation on Christian values you seem incapable of understanding how they could come up with some universal values that happen to align with their faith while simultaneously making sure this new government would not only NOT endorse any religion but that no religious test would be allowed for people seeking to run it.You are twisting yourself in knots to prove a point a failing miserably.

 

[Darwin333]

Why do Christian detractors always dwell on the old testament?

According to Christians it is the word of the Lord, isn't that good enough?

And, no, many Christian principles and values aren't unique to Christianity. Many are what could be considered universal principles, those that are right regardless of your upbringing. Except that our forefathers were raised as Christians and that is where those principles were implemented. I gave up Catholicism in my early teens after I realized how corrupt and full of shit the Church was. That doesn't mean that it didn't mold my principles and morals. It did.

Exactly which "principals" or morals are uniquely Christian or did not exist before Christianity?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Good lord! Are you high because you are spinning!

What I hear you saying is that you only have morals because you grew up catholic? Do I need to explain to you how poor your logic is?

OMG. Yet another P&N moron.

I said:

"That doesn't mean that it didn't mold my principles and morals. It did."

That doesn't even come close to implying that I only have morals because I grew up Catholic. Learn how to read you fucking moron.

The goddam stupid fucking idiots spewing horseshit in this place is amazing. It's no wonder ATOT hates this place.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

According to Christians it is the word of the Lord, isn't that good enough?

Is that what Christians claim about the OT?

Exactly which "principals" or morals are uniquely Christian or did not exist before Christianity?

Who claimed principles or morals were uniquely Christian? ah heck off with the red herring arguments. It's getting tiresome.

 

[ivwshane]

OMG. Yet another P&N moron.

I said:

"That doesn't mean that it didn't mold my principles and morals. It did."

That doesn't even come close to implying that I only have morals because I grew up Catholic. Learn how to read you fucking moron.

The goddam stupid fucking idiots spewing horseshit in this place is amazing. It's no wonder ATOT hates this place.

Lol! You mad bro?

Oh and I knew exactly what you meant and I knew that you know that morals don't only come from religion and that was the point. Which is why you claiming this nation was founded on Christian principals and is a Christian nation is quite ridiculous, especially when presented with all the evidence that says you are wrong.

What you didn't realize is that you just proved my point; our founding fathers may have been religious but that doesn't mean this country was founded with those beliefs in mind and just because the principals the founding fathers decided to use as a foundation for this country happens to overlap those from religion doesn't mean the intent was a religious one.

I also note you didn't bother addressing any of the other issues I brought up (such as the religious test, not to be confused on your part with a church test).

Moron indeed

 

[ivwshane]

Read their writings and your question will be answered.

Lol! Nice cop out.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Lol! You mad bro?

Oh and I knew exactly what you meant and I knew that you know that morals don't only come from religion and that was the point. Which is why you claiming this nation was founded on Christian principals and is a Christian nation is quite ridiculous, especially when presented with all the evidence that says you are wrong.

What you didn't realize is that you just proved my point; our founding fathers may have been religious but that doesn't mean this country was founded with those beliefs in mind and just because the principals the founding fathers decided to use as a foundation for this country happens to overlap those from religion doesn't mean the intent was a religious one.

I also note you didn't bother addressing any of the other issues I brought up (such as the religious test, not to be confused on your part with a church test).

Moron indeed

Keep your head buried firmly up your leftist ass, moron.