Car Audio: Help me build a decent system for $1000

sygyzy

Lifer
Oct 21, 2000
14,001
4
76
I am sick and tired of my horrible sounding sound system in my 2k Celica. I'd like to spend about a grand (in a few months) to upgrade it and I'd like your advice.

I do not care about bass. At least not the kind that you can hear from a mile away. So I will go with a single 10.
I care very much about sound quality. I don't car too much about how loud it is, although I reckon it'll be much louder than my stock setup.

I want to spend about $1000. It's not a big deal if it's a bit over or a bit under, but don't go overboard.

Currently I have a 50x4 Sony ES headunit. I forgot the model number. 600 or 650 or something. Has Active Black Panel. It is fine, I don't want to change it unless I absolutely have to. It doesn't have mp3 or anything fancy, but it works for me. IF there is a technical reason why I'd need to change it, please tell me.

I'd like to keep everything simple, just one or two brands. I know that while X might make great components, Y might make better subs. That's fine and all but I don't want 5 different companies in my car. Why? That's just how I am. I like uniformity. With that said, I was thinking Infinity Components for Front and Reference for rear? The Celica uses 6" speakers all around. Should I go with a different company altogether? I've heard Inifinities and I like how they sound. They are also at a good price point.

For the trunk I'd get a 10 inch JL sub in a box? Any other suggestions?

How do I figure out what amp I need? How many do I need? One for speakers, one for sub? What brand? How do I figure out power ratings, RMS, etc? Crossover, bridge, mono, 4 channel, 10 channel? I don't know what any of this means.

How much should I expect to pay for installation?

Do I need a cap?

Is it better buying online? Cheaper? Where are some good reputable sites I can visit?

Thanks for any help you guys can lend me.
 

Shockwave

Banned
Sep 16, 2000
9,059
0
0
Holy crap man, that could take a book to answer!!
*heh* Ah well, alas maybe helping you will shed some light on my dilema so here goes....From the top....

Sound quality is alot harder to get the loud. You have to take into account imaging and staging. The "ideal" (Per competition standards) setup is to mimic concert cound. Thus, everything should appear to come from in front of you, as if you were in the center of an orchestra. You would hear things positioned as they would be on the stage, slightly above eye level strings on left drums on right or however it *should* be in real life. But, we're not competeing and you may not even like that. But, to that end rear fill is a huge no no. Thus, you'd onyl want mids and highs coming from the front. I've heard you can get midbass in the back, but thats master installer kind of stuff. I havent tried it yet but I'm going to.

Moving on. $1000 is a decent budget if your willing to shop online. I would imagine so, but going to B&M stores with that and you'll get eaten alive FAST. Install is really gonna vary depending how in depth you go. Replace factory stock locations with drop in replacements and no dampening and it should be fairly reasonable. Get even a bit custom and I could see half that budget going up in install. May wanna think of doing some or most yourself, its really not all that hard (Except door panels. Damn I hate door panels)

The HU, while not a top end killer, will do the job. What kind of outputs does it have? Hopefully 3, Front / Rear / Mono (bass). Hopefully at LEAST 2 volts out.

I agree with the same brands to an extent. I like to keep amps the same and speakers the same. Really, unless you advertise what they are people wouldnt really know, and diversifying allows you to get the best of what a company has to offer.

And now the fun part! Selection. Infinity is good stuff for sure. You wont go wrong with it, although its not MY first choice. Have you demo'd them? I'll be frank, bass is bass. It'll sound nearly the same from a Jensen or a W7. Find something you like and go with it. Now, move up from the bass and its a whole new ball game. Mids and highs speakers each have there own sound. And every damned on sounds different. So, that makes it difficult to recommend a component / coax set that you would like. Its something that really is better off if you can go actually hear them. I personally really like the JL Audio XR series components. I also like the Infinity Kappa Perfects. Alot of brands have a very bright tweeter. Focal and MB Quart have REALLY bright tweeters. If you like blazing highs, look into those for sure. They dont sound bad, they arent ditorted, there just VERY bright. Not so much my taste, thus I dont, and probably wouldnt use them. But, Focal is also generally regarded as one of, if not thee, best component set money can buy. The top end weighs in around $1500 bucks. So, to say they have bright tweeters is not to imply they have bad. Thats just to show every speaker sounds a bit different.

Amps are kinda more depentdent on budget then anything. Amps, like speakers, can run from pretty affordable up to insane. Sinfoni and Brax coem to mind. Lets just say i cant think of 1 amp in their entire lineup you could get with $1000. No, I dont run them but I would like to :D
JBL is an excellent "bang for the buck" amp. Online JL audio is good as well, Visionik, Power Acoustics is alright. Basically, all amps sound the same. The reason people say amps sound different is due to the added features such as crossovers and bass boosts. So, find an amp that gives you the power you need at a price you can afford. I personally dont like the all in one amps (The 5 channels and such) although thats personal preference. In a case such as yours, it may be the perfect fit. Again, personal preference.
You'll want 1 channel per side of the car. Thus, 1 channel for the front right, 1 for front left, 1 for rear right etc. Also, 1 channel for the sub. Components and Coax's, although using mulitple speakers, all run from 1 channel. You could do a 5 channel amp which would give you 2 fronts for the doors, 2 rear channels for the deck and 1 sub channel. I think my biggest complaint is they dont have enough oomph on the sub output for me. I need 1000 watts to really get my sub to stand up and shine, and the most I think I've EVER seen is around 300. You could also get 2 amps, either a 2 channel or 4 channel for mids n highs and a mono amp for the sub. I would go that route, although that does add to install cost but allows a bit more flexability. Advantages either way.
For power, just find the RMS of your speaker. Find an amp that puts out at least 1 watt but not more then about 25% over the RMS rating. Use that and you'll be fine. Thus, if you get a component set that has an RMS of 100 watts, find an amp that gives around 50-125 watts per channel. Yes, you *can* do more, but I dont recommend running alot of power if your not a fairly experienced user. Its important to realize when your speakers are reaching their limits, and some cant do that. And no, underpowering wont hurt them. Clipping of the amp does. We'll go into that later if needed.
Now the features. Crossover. Think of this as a router. We have 20-20,000 frequencies. Well, the crossover just routes them where they should go. Thus, a high pass (HP) crossover set to 1000 will allow any frequency of 1000 hertz or greater to pass. Anything else and it blocks it (It actually attenuates it...) Each channel of an amp refers to an output section. 2 channel, 2 outputs. most amps rate power per channelx channels...ie...100x2 = 100 watts on each channel, 2 channels. This would be able to run component sets, coax's or whatever else. Bridged is combining our channels for mroe power. Our 100x2 amp? Bridge it and it (may) go to 200x1. Twice the power, only 1 output (Channel) Generally used for sub applications, or to bridge a 4 channel to 2 channel for more power on some mids and highs.
The crossover is important in that we want to route our signals to the right place. We dont want subs playing vocals, and dont want tweets playing bass. Thats why there there.

Caps. No. I wouldnt advise one. Waste of money in my opinion. Thats all i will say there.

I would buy online. You can save alot of money. Example... I went to listen to some JL XR 650CSi (Top end 2 ways) They wanted 400 in the store. I found them online for 250. Well, that give me an etra 150 to either step up to a higher model (The 3 ways) or to put towards an amp.

So, now lets peice out an example system.....This will actually be flavored more for me, so you wont see rear fill......

JL XR 650CSi = 259 (I prefer components over coax, it wont matter much excpet coax is eaiser to install)
JL 300/2 Amp = 329

That would take care of your mids and highs in a very nice way. Keep in mind, those XR's are the top of the line JL components. You can drop to a lowe rline or a different brand and cut some money. Here is some Infinity Kappa components for $179. Really thats up to you.

Next is the sub. First off, I cant stress this enough.Listen
Carefully.
I mean it!!
Speaker size does not affect sound quality
Yes, a 10" is as "tight", "rich", "quick", "responsive", "signals aliens" or whatever else people say as a 12 or a 15" speaker. Install and how the speaker was designed are what determines this!!
With that being said, I'm recommending you a 12".
Adire Shiva
I dont think you can find a better 12" speaker on the market for the price. I also think you;d be hard pressed to find as good of one for even twice the money. I havent heard it personally, but I;ve heard alot, I mean ALOT of good about it. And now the amp! So, sticking with JL....
JL 500/1 = 400

So, that would round you out at 1100 bucks, less install. Again though, dropping those JL XR's for a lesser line would help out alot. But, if I were you and wanted to cut some bucks from there I'd look elsewhere for amps. Lets redo it using JBL amps. Still good amps, and alot less....

JBL 180.2 = 170 (For your components)
JBL 600.1 = 260 (For the sub)

That takes total cost of amps from 729 down to 450 or so. Hell of a drop eh?

Hope that gets you started, if you have any other questions just ask away. :)

(No, that didnt solve my problem...damn the luck...)
 

sygyzy

Lifer
Oct 21, 2000
14,001
4
76
I am from So. Cali. Boy I am excited with the help you just gave me. I have to get ready for work but will reply in length in a few hours!
 

Shockwave

Banned
Sep 16, 2000
9,059
0
0
Thats cool, lemme know if you have any other questions.
Also, check these sites out, they have alot of good info, and on the forums just search for whatever you interested in...

Car Sound Forums
Sound Illusions Forums (Alot of Adire users here, including some Shiva's)
Excellent general info site
T/S info
More T/S Info, plus a good site in general
MORE T/S info.
Yep, More T/S info
Good forums and website

Yes, knowing the Theile / Small information of subs is THAT important. Its the makeup of the sub. Its the equivelent of the pipelines, speed, cache and all the other tech stuff of PC's. You dont NEED to know it, but doing so will really pull together why a loudspeaker performs the way it does. It also will really help you decide what kind of box you want, as box design is critically related to the T/S info. You dont need to know it if you go to the shop down the road, but if you want to do the stuff yourself, its the Holy Bible of box design. So, read the T/S info sites as you see fit.
 

sygyzy

Lifer
Oct 21, 2000
14,001
4
76
Here is my long reply. Excuse the dumb questions and again, thanks for the help.

Head Unit:
I found the model number for my HU. It's a Sony MDX-750 in the ES series. And I was right 50x4. I can get the manual later and look up outputs if you tell me what to look for. Can I go with my current HU now and just buy a new one later down the road? Would this have any negative effects or would there be any problems swapping them?

Oh yeah, if we increase the budget, recommend me a HU.

Speakers:
Am I correct in understanding that you are recommending NO rear fill? Not even simple 2 way speakers? What is the difference between "speakers" and "component" speakers?
Why should I not have any rear speakers? Did you mean no speakers at all or just not good ones? I would feel like the car is very unbalanced if I didn't at least put O.K. Inifinities in the rear.

I have heard Inifities and I like them alot. I think they are good bang for the buck. So let's go with those. BTW, you are right, I made a mistake. I said 6" but they are 6.5" of course. Okay Inifinity has a few lines out right? Kappa and Reference? Which do I choose? I assume one is more high end, but do I need it? Fronts will be components and rears will be 2 way? Is that okay?

Amps:
I am fine with running 2 amps - a single for the sub and a multichannel for the 4 speakers. Now I have always been confused about amp power. I see people run amps for subs that are AAAx2 or BBBx1. I assume you can combine channels to make a "super channel"? The same goes for 4 ch amps that I see listed as AAAx4 or BBBx2. With that said, how do I know what to choose? You said I could get a 2 channel for mids and highs. If I go two channel it'd be 1 for left and 1 for right. Why would I get a 4 channel then? One for each speaker independently? Can you check my Infinity choice and tell me what power amps I'd need?

Why did you recommend such a powerful amp for the sub? Do I need that much power?

Can you give an example of how to choose the power rating I'd need? For example, cut and paste a speaker specs and then show me what number I should be looking at. Then cut and paste a suitable amp's specs and show me how they correlate.

Sub:
I don't understand what you are saying about choosing a 12 over a 10. I really don't care about bass *that* much. Why would I spend extra money for it? How much does a box run? Will the car audio install shop have boxes ready? I may go with the Adire you recommended.

Install:
What gauge wire do I need? Small number means thicker right? Do I just request it and they'll do use that size? How would I ever verify they actually did use it? I have these places for the tweeters in my door. Will Infinity Component tweeters fit right in there? What about amp location? I have seen them secured to the back of my rear seat (you can see them from the trunk). That looks like a good idea. Would a shop have any problem doing this? What about under the seats. What are the pros and cons of each install location?

Purchasing:
Why did you link all to Woofers Etc? Are they like the NewEgg of car audio? Believe it or not I am a huge online shopper but found virtually zilch quality sites for car audio. Most have websites that look like they were designed by five year olds. The others just looked plain shady. Any other good sites to shop from? Where do you go to get stuff?

That's it for now. I am going to be proactive about this, I want a new system.
 

Shockwave

Banned
Sep 16, 2000
9,059
0
0
Originally posted by: sygyzy
Here is my long reply. Excuse the dumb questions and again, thanks for the help.

Head Unit:
I found the model number for my HU. It's a Sony MDX-750 in the ES series. And I was right 50x4. I can get the manual later and look up outputs if you tell me what to look for. Can I go with my current HU now and just buy a new one later down the road? Would this have any negative effects or would there be any problems swapping them?

Oh yeah, if we increase the budget, recommend me a HU.

The HU should do fine. If it has RCA outs (Pre amp outputs) thats a huge bonus, but I'm sure it will. RCA is the inputs on the amps, so RCA outs is desirable so you can run right to the amps with RCA's. If your looking for a replacement, I highly recommend Eclipse HU's. I have always ran Eclipse, and I'll never run another HU. Alot of very happy users. Originally they were designed for the sound quality market and made veru high end decks, and carried quite a price tag. This year they've slashed prices across the board to try to compete in the lower lines. Theres one model that for all practical purposes looks like it should cost twice what their charging for it, as the feature set is VERY nice. TIme alignment, good crossover set. Comes in around 300 in price. I cant remember the exact model number, but I believe it was in the 3000 series. I have a 5443 which I paid 550 for 2 years ago. They go for around 3 or 4 now. The top of the line 8 series is now 550. And it comes with a 1 year theft warrenty. It gets stolen, they give you a new one for free.

Speakers:
Am I correct in understanding that you are recommending NO rear fill? Not even simple 2 way speakers? What is the difference between "speakers" and "component" speakers?
Why should I not have any rear speakers? Did you mean no speakers at all or just not good ones? I would feel like the car is very unbalanced if I didn't at least put O.K. Inifinities in the rear.

Thats correct, I'm saying no rear fill. For someone like you its personal preference. But, its liek this. True SQ listeners want it just likea concert. At a concert, everyone is in front of you. No one plays behind you. If you put speakers in the rear, then when you listen to it, you have people playing behind you. Since you wont be competeing, its completely up to you. i personally hate rear fill, since it ruins staging by introducing sounds from behind me, thus killing the concert hall effect.

I have heard Inifities and I like them alot. I think they are good bang for the buck. So let's go with those. BTW, you are right, I made a mistake. I said 6" but they are 6.5" of course. Okay Inifinity has a few lines out right? Kappa and Reference? Which do I choose? I assume one is more high end, but do I need it? Fronts will be components and rears will be 2 way? Is that okay?

Infinity is a good brand, you wont go wrong with them. Yes, those are different lines. Just like Duron and T-Bird, you have Reference and Kappa. I myself like the sounds of the Kappa Perfects. Do you need it? I dunno...Thats up to YOU to decide ;) I would go with the Kappa's at least.

Amps:
I am fine with running 2 amps - a single for the sub and a multichannel for the 4 speakers. Now I have always been confused about amp power. I see people run amps for subs that are AAAx2 or BBBx1. I assume you can combine channels to make a "super channel"? The same goes for 4 ch amps that I see listed as AAAx4 or BBBx2. With that said, how do I know what to choose? You said I could get a 2 channel for mids and highs. If I go two channel it'd be 1 for left and 1 for right. Why would I get a 4 channel then? One for each speaker independently? Can you check my Infinity choice and tell me what power amps I'd need?

Generally you can bidge amps. Not always, but usually any 2 channel can run mono, and any 4 channel can drop to 2. Most sub amps (mono) are 1 channel, hence your BBBx1. Unless thats displaying the bridged setting, in that case it you be Ax2, Bx1 bridged. And the 2 channel would be for front left front right. The 4 channel was only if you decide to run speakers in the back. So, if you do components up front, get 2 channels. Components up front and coax's in back, get a 4 channel. OR, get funky and get just components, get a 4 channel amp and bridge it to 2 channels to get more power. Not really required since alot of 2 channel amps provide planty of power for components. And Infinity doesnt make amps so....No help there.

Why did you recommend such a powerful amp for the sub? Do I need that much power?

Can you give an example of how to choose the power rating I'd need? For example, cut and paste a speaker specs and then show me what number I should be looking at. Then cut and paste a suitable amp's specs and show me how they correlate.

Power is like CPU speed, can you ever have too much? :D Well, what you need is really a matter of preference. Theres some guys who use monster subs that take 1500 watts, and they only have a 200 watt amp. It suites there taste. I prefer to have too much power instead of not enough as you can always turn it down. get bass hungry and try to turn it up beyond what the amp can normally do and you clip the amp. Clipping = death to subs. Now, thats if you push it hard by turning up the gains on the amp. So, I really cant say if you *need* that much power, but getting a bigger amp to run close to the RMS rating of the speaker is always nice, for no other reason then you can always turn it down, but once you reach the limit of the amp you start to clip and bad things happen.

I'll copy and paste tonight from work. My internet is runnin ass slow right now and its pissin me off. Traceroute shows latency on Sprintlink gateway. Doesnt suprise me, those guys neevr know when there shtuff is broke.
Sub:
I don't understand what you are saying about choosing a 12 over a 10. I really don't care about bass *that* much. Why would I spend extra money for it? How much does a box run? Will the car audio install shop have boxes ready? I may go with the Adire you recommended.

Well, 10 or 12 or 15 is really personal preference. granted, a larger speaker would be preferable since a larger speaker can get louder with less stress on it, thus you can still maintain good SQ at high listening levels, but really its going to be personal preference., Biggest reason i recommended the 12....the Shiva only comes in a 12" size.

Install:
What gauge wire do I need? Small number means thicker right? Do I just request it and they'll do use that size? How would I ever verify they actually did use it? I have these places for the tweeters in my door. Will Infinity Component tweeters fit right in there? What about amp location? I have seen them secured to the back of my rear seat (you can see them from the trunk). That looks like a good idea. Would a shop have any problem doing this? What about under the seats. What are the pros and cons of each install location?

Smaller is bigger yes. Usually a shop will use 4 gauge to the amps for power and ground, and probably 8 or 12 gauge off the amps to the speaker. Verify? Look at the wire on the amp inputs and outputs. The tweets more the likely will be a drop in replacement, although it may take some minor cutting to fit. Dremels and power tools work great for this, and the end result will still be a factory look unless the installer gets lazy. Amps can be mounted anywhere really, just depends how you want it. Mine is just layin in the floor of my trunk not even fastened down. I ran the power wire short enough that it has no slack, so it doesnt slide (My install is fairly ghetto right now) But, under driver / passenger seats, on the trunk floor, in an amp rack. They can probably get it wherever you want it. The more time it takes though the more it costs. There really isnt a pro / con except with cooling. Dont cover the heatsink of the amp, it needs to breath just like your CPU heatsink.
The biggest thing is wire is wire. Dont believe the hype that Monster Cable will somehow make your ssytem sound so much better. Some argue that wire makes a differnece yes, but the general industry belief is there full of it. So, dont pay extra for a fancy name. I used Knukoncetpz and highly recommend them and they have a large, very happy customer base which is growing.
Knukonceptz
There selection isnt so hot, if they dont have something you need check ampman.com under the stinger section.
Ampman.com

Purchasing:
Why did you link all to Woofers Etc? Are they like the NewEgg of car audio? Believe it or not I am a huge online shopper but found virtually zilch quality sites for car audio. Most have websites that look like they were designed by five year olds. The others just looked plain shady. Any other good sites to shop from? Where do you go to get stuff?

Woofersetc links are just for ease of use. They have the best selection for any one site, so I can pull it up and link to about any product I'd like. I have no idea how good they are though. Its usually a YMMY (Your milage may vary) kinda thing. Some guys use a site with excellent results, some use the same site with piss poor results. You can check some forums and do a search for the site your interested in and see what people are saying. I got my stuff from ampman.com and adireaudio.com. Absolutely no problems, but ampman doesnt carry budget based stuff. They sell high end stuff, and its pricey so you've been warned ;)

That's it for now. I am going to be proactive about this, I want a new system.

Hey thats cool, ask away and I'll do what I can to help. may edit this later tongiht, I'm tired as hell and need sleep so....(Work nights)
 

TrueBlueLS

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2001
2,931
1
0
I say ditch the idea of using 6" speakers and just go for 6.5". I would recommend component speakers made by either Kicker, Focal, or MB Quart.
 

sygyzy

Lifer
Oct 21, 2000
14,001
4
76
Reply to Shockwave.

I don't think I can afford an Eclipse HU. They are too expensive. Maybe something that's only a few $100.

How does the line for Inifinty's go? Kappa is the low end then Reference? What about Kappa Perfect?

And Infinity doesnt make amps so....No help there

I meant any amp, not Infinity specifically.

Found out WoofersEtc is 15 miles away from my permanent home in LA. I also found I can do a pickup and not pay tax. That's a great deal!

I want rear fill so I will be getting a 4x amp. Should I get a single channel for sub or a 2x1?

I think I've decided to go with the 12 you recommended, thanks.

Now I just need to figure out if I really do want the Inifity speakers, then find 2 amps and maybe a HU. Crap, I haven't really accomplished much :(
 

Doodoo

Golden Member
Feb 14, 2000
1,423
0
76
Infinity use to make amps...and damn good ones too. I havent read any of the above posts...since it looked all long and i just woke, but i can answer the questions in ur last post. As fas the inifinity's go...they go Reference, Kappa, Perfect. All of which sound pretty good. If you go Kappa's or Perfect...you definatly need an amp for em. Ill probably get Kappa's when I buy my new car in the next few months. Personally Id install the whole thing myself...not hard at all. For sub, you can get eitehr 2x1 or a monoblock. The 2x1 will probably be more flexible in the future as monoblocks are usually meant only for subs. Oh and definatly go with the 12.

Here's my system.

Clarion 9675 along with a 6 disk changer
2 12" IDQ
Cadence A5HC (I love this amp)
USAcoustics..forget the model number...but its 60x4
Kicker speakers all around

 

Frosty3799

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 2000
3,795
0
0
Good timing for this thread, I am looking into a system right now too...

Sorry, I can't be any help to your cause, sygyzy, but thanks everyone else for the input
 

sygyzy

Lifer
Oct 21, 2000
14,001
4
76
No problem, that's why I think it's important for all the responses to be in public. I know I have read other people's problem threads from the sidelines and have gained alot from them.

Thanks to everyone that replied and those that are planning to! Where are you Shockwave!?
 

Viperoni

Lifer
Jan 4, 2000
11,084
1
71
Shockwave's right on the money with everything, listen to him :)

Another vote for the Shiva... great sub for the money.
If you really want to go loud though, it's VERY tough to beat an Adire Tempest for SPL and Sound Quality.
I have a sub very similar to the Tempest and I love it :)
 

Shockwave

Banned
Sep 16, 2000
9,059
0
0
Originally posted by: Viperoni
Shockwave's right on the money with everything, listen to him :)

Another vote for the Shiva... great sub for the money.
If you really want to go loud though, it's VERY tough to beat an Adire Tempest for SPL and Sound Quality.
I have a sub very similar to the Tempest and I love it :)

Thanks for the compliment :) I spent ALOT of time studying this.
So, whatchya got? i have a 12" Brahma...You usin a Brahma??

And for anyone who's serious about audio, I cant recommend Loudspeaker Design Cookbook by Vance Dickason. Amazon has it for just under 40 bucks.

Anyways, about the amp selection. Yes, if you want rear fill either get 2 2channel amps or 1 4 channel amp. You'll need a channel per "point" (Front left, front right, rear left, rear right)
For the sub amp you can do either or. Get a mono or a 2 channel and bridge it or a 2 channel and run 1 channel per coil. Alot of subs are dual voice coil so that would work. Or parallel the coils to 1 channel. Either or. Check some wiring wizards from those links I gave you and you'll understand a bit better.

the ONLY thing that bothers me about recommending the Shiva, if memory serves it likes a bigger box then some other brands. However, theres nothing like the look on your friends face when they see it, think its some no name budget sub then proceeds to shake the fillings out :)

One reason I prefer larger cone speakers, although they take up more trunk space, is they can play lower more effectively. If you want to run low infrasonic frequencies, you need a BIG cone that can move air. Thats why for sound quality a larger cone is actually preferable (Not always, just work with me here for a minute)
If you want clean sound quality, running your subs within spec is imperetive. The more a sub is pushed, the more it degrades in sound quality. Well, if you want loud sound quality, what happens to our sub? Its having to play low frequencies loudly, which is causing it to have to move alot of air. Now a 10" cone will have to move farther then a 15" cone to displace an equal amount of air. Thus, our 10" will reach its limits before a 15" reachs its limits...Thus, our 10 is distorting and stressed before our 15. Thus, larger cones can allow for better sound quality at high volumes.
Thats not always the case, but as a general overview as to why I prefer larger cones.....
And since I KNOW you've heard the "Larger speakers arent as tight" argument...Think of this. If you have 1 horsepower to move 1 pound, wouldnt the end result be the same as 10 horsepower to move 10 pounds?
Its not cone size, its motor force. See here for a better description.

 

LS20

Banned
Jan 22, 2002
5,858
0
0
get a new HU... a good quality HU will improve the sound quality. also, if your current HU doesnt have RCA outputs, then it might make expanding your system more difficult.

get JVC SH-909 for 240$. The big plus is that it supports mp3. If you want an eclipse, there is the 3403 (iirc) which supports MP3 and only cost ~250. I much prefer the looks of the JVC, however.

alot of the purists prefer only a front stage and therefore bypassing the rears altogether. but then again these are the guys that dump half of their paycheck on audio equipment so are you going to follow suit there, too? if you want infinity's, you can get a pair of 5.25" infinity reference components for 120$. or just replace the front speakers with inifini kappa full-range coaxials... or replace all 4. either way youre gonna want to power them with an amplifier. there are lots of way to set this up and lots of amplifiers for the pickins. one way is to get a nice 2 channel to power the front speakers/components and power the rear from the head unit. id get a 4 channel amp to power all 4. dont spend no more than 300$ here.

as for subwoofers, i dislike the obnoxious overkill bass people blast as much as you but dont let that deter you from getting one. i listen to rock and they dramatically improve the music. look for a cheap Alpine Type R 12" or Image Dynamics ID 12" , each have a separate recommendation for enclosure size... so follow that for a ported box. a modest JBL600.1 mono subwoofer should complement it nicely
 

Shockwave

Banned
Sep 16, 2000
9,059
0
0
Originally posted by: LS20
get a new HU... a good quality HU will improve the sound quality. also, if your current HU doesnt have RCA outputs, then it might make expanding your system more difficult.

get JVC SH-909 for 240$. The big plus is that it supports mp3. If you want an eclipse, there is the 3403 (iirc) which supports MP3 and only cost ~250. I much prefer the looks of the JVC, however.

alot of the purists prefer only a front stage and therefore bypassing the rears altogether. but then again these are the guys that dump half of their paycheck on audio equipment so are you going to follow suit there, too? if you want infinity's, you can get a pair of 5.25" infinity reference components for 120$. or just replace the front speakers with inifini kappa full-range coaxials... or replace all 4. either way youre gonna want to power them with an amplifier. there are lots of way to set this up and lots of amplifiers for the pickins. one way is to get a nice 2 channel to power the front speakers/components and power the rear from the head unit. id get a 4 channel amp to power all 4. dont spend no more than 300$ here.

as for subwoofers, i dislike the obnoxious overkill bass people blast as much as you but dont let that deter you from getting one. i listen to rock and they dramatically improve the music. look for a cheap Alpine Type R 12" or Image Dynamics ID 12" , each have a separate recommendation for enclosure size... so follow that for a ported box. a modest JBL600.1 mono subwoofer should complement it nicely

BLASPHEMY!!! ECLIPSE PWNS J00!!! :D
 

sygyzy

Lifer
Oct 21, 2000
14,001
4
76
OK we have the sub (shiva), front speakers (Kappa 6.5" components for front, 2 way 6.5" Coaxials for rear) and head unit (keeping mine for now).

Can you guys give me specific recommendations for the 4 channel amp and the sub amp? Any pros or cons over running a single versus AAAx1 (on a 2 channel) for the sub?

I am going to start jotting this down soon and working to get it installed.
 

Shockwave

Banned
Sep 16, 2000
9,059
0
0
Originally posted by: sygyzy
OK we have the sub (shiva), front speakers (Kappa 6.5" components for front, 2 way 6.5" Coaxials for rear) and head unit (keeping mine for now).

Can you guys give me specific recommendations for the 4 channel amp and the sub amp? Any pros or cons over running a single versus AAAx1 (on a 2 channel) for the sub?

I am going to start jotting this down soon and working to get it installed.

Well, the JBL line is a really good bang for the buck line. i really like the feature set of the JL Audio amps, and I really like the looks of the Phoenix Gold Titanium line. But the JL and PG amps are alot more expensive. You could always get the JBL amps then grab some AudioControl crossovers though if thats your flavor.

MTX 4244 = $180, 45 x 4
JBL P80.4 = $180, 40 x 4
Visionik V4208 = $260, 125 x 4
JL Audio 300/4 = $380, 75 x 5
Phoenix Gold T400.4 (Tantrum series) = $280, 50 x 4
Sinfoni 50.4 = $1500, 70 x 4

Thats one problem I have with 4 channel amps, its hard to find an amp that puts out 80-100 watts by 4 channels at 4 ohm.

Sub amps.
JBL BP600.1 = $260, 600 x 1
Visionik V400HC = $348, 500 x 1
JL Audio 500.1 = $400, 500 x 1
Phoenix Gold T500.2 (Tantrum series) = $280, 500 x 1
Sinfoni 90.2 = $1050, 335 x 1

Keep in mind, all amp ratings are highest rated RMS power for the sub amps and 4 ohm for the mids n highs. In other words, the power ratings for the mids n highs will be what you will get (As nearly all comp / coax speakers are 4 ohm) whereas the sub amps may vary depending on the resistance of your sub.

I like the Phoenix Gold Titanium lineup of amps, not so much the Tantrum. Thats based simply on looks. I like the crossover set of JL better then PG though. JBL is the way to go for price though as you could almost get the JBL then pick up some Audio control crossovers, which are light years ahead of what amps will have internally.
Decisions decisions eh?
 

Shockwave

Banned
Sep 16, 2000
9,059
0
0
Heres what I mean by your experience will vary with online shopping...
Clicky

Some guys have good luck, some get crapped on. Hell, I remember on Sounddomain (Which i am a member of and frewquent quite often, but still consider it the backwater asshat-land of audio forums) one time there was this one guy who had a sweet EXPENSIVE amp and it took him like 6 months to get it all fixed up as it was bad when he recieved it.
 

sygyzy

Lifer
Oct 21, 2000
14,001
4
76
Looks like my rears are 75 RMS maximum. How close to this should I run it? You suggested some 4x45, isn't this too weak?

How is it possible there is a 125x4 that is so cheap? I can't imagine the quality being that great if it costs the same as something with half the power?

I don't want to go with that fancy route you suggested, with having the Audio Control Crossovers?!?!

I guess a good way to choose the sub and speaker amps is to figure out how much power I need right?

Looks like you only use 1/2 the RMS for the speakers whereas you are pumping alot (500-600W) into the sub. Why is that?

 

Shockwave

Banned
Sep 16, 2000
9,059
0
0
The Visionik? i actually dont think there a bad amp, alot of SPL competitors use their High Current amps and do pretty well. That 125x4 rating may be a WLS (When Lighting Strikes)
See, an amp has to have X input voltage to put out Y watts. Most amps are rated at either 13.3 or 14.4, whereas that rating MAY be at like 15 or 16 volts. Who knows? Would I use it? No. I personally dont like the look of Visionik amps, and thats abou tit. Alot of other guys use them and like them.
As for power, its all preference really. My factory tweets on my Hu get loud enough for my wife. I could use Focal tweets with 80 watts to be happy. 40 or 50 would be good, especially since you stated you dont need it ultra loud, just good sound quality. 50 watts sounds as good as 90, just not as loud.

And subs are just power hungry machines by nature. Takes alot more power to move a 12" cone vs a 1" cone.

****Edit*****

that 125 rating may also be at 2 ohms. Most of those amps listed will do around the 100 - 125 range on a 2 ohm load....

***Edit again****

Nope, thats at 4 ohm on the Visionik. Guess that would fall into best bang for the buck in the 4 channel range.... Might wanna do Visionik for your amps instead of JBL.
 

glen

Lifer
Apr 28, 2000
15,995
1
81
I use this:
Alpine 5-Channel Amplifier
Brand/Model: APN MRPF320
$200.00
It is 4 x 40 and a sub. I think the sub out is 40.
It is plenty loud.
System is here
 

sygyzy

Lifer
Oct 21, 2000
14,001
4
76
Those $1500 amp is too expensive.

I like the looks of the JL and JBL. Now if I go for JBL (best bang for buck), I will need to spend extra for the audio crossovers, for sure? Like they don't have them built in or something?

Any other brands worth looking at? I don't like the Phoenix ones. Juggling between JL and JBL unless you have other suggestions.

Oh yes, why not pick out a HU while we are at it. Need it to have ATT and MP3/CDRW playback. Simple eh? You like Eclipse? They have three different models and I don't know why. They all seem to have the same features. Which specific model do you like?

How about other HU brands? Clarion? Kenwood?