Car Audio: Help me build a decent system for $1000

[Muadib]

I'm at least 5 years out of the car audio upgrade craze, but I have a few questions.

Why should he replace his HU? New speakers & amps will improve his system 10 fold. I'm pretty sure he said his current unit has rca outputs, so wouldn't his 1k be better spent just upgrading the speakers & amps and not trying to do all 3 with the same money?

Someone mentioned crossovers, I wouldn't include them with only 1k to spend, unless they have really come down in price. Wouldn't filters be the better way to go?

How are Rockford Fosgate amps these days? Back in the mid to late 90's,
they were outstanding in quality, sound and price.

 

[Shockwave]

Originally posted by: Muadib
I'm at least 5 years out of the car audio upgrade craze, but I have a few questions.

1)Why should he replace his HU? New speakers & amps will improve his system 10 fold. I'm pretty sure he said his current unit has rca outputs, so wouldn't his 1k be better spent just upgrading the speakers & amps and not trying to do all 3 with the same money?

2)Someone mentioned crossovers, I wouldn't include them with only 1k to spend, unless they have really come down in price. Wouldn't filters be the better way to go?

3)How are Rockford Fosgate amps these days? Back in the mid to late 90's,
they were outstanding in quality, sound and price.

1) Sony isnt exactly known as the hot stuff on the audio scene. But, his HU will do fine for now. But the Eclipse would give far more control. For only 300-ish he gets time alignment. Name one HU with time alignment besides that costs less then 800 right now...i cant think of 1 right off. I'm sure someone will prove me wrong though

2) Audiocontrol's run around 150 - 200 online. It also allows alot more control then just passives. But with what he's doing, the amps internals would be fine IMO

3) As good as ever, if still ugly as all Hell. Maybe a bit pricier then they used to be though

 

[Pepsi90919]

shockwave that denon page you cited looks like it says it has a 12/24 hr quartz clock if i'm reading it right.

 

[Shockwave]

Originally posted by: Pepsi90919
shockwave that denon page you cited looks like it says it has a 12/24 hr quartz clock if i'm reading it right.

Right you are!! Never even saw that

Guess once I found out how much it was I quit readin. I dont think price is posted there, dunno. i dont spend much time at that site, for obvious reasons.

 

[sygyzy]

Okay, I just woke up!

Looks like more than one of you guys agrees that rear fill is worthless but I don't like the idea of completely eliminating it so I have a few questions.


1. By your design, are you completely eliiminating ANY rear fill? I.e. you disconnect/remove the rear spears?

2. Is it possible...to put Adire components in my front, keep my stock factory rears, and somehow regulate the amp so it doesn't blow the rear? I assume the Adires have a much higher RMS than the rear factory speakers and if I tried to play them at the same volume, they might blow right? Any cons to this?

 

[nguyendot1]

msg me on AIM under Nguyendot, or yahoo..also nguyendot or nguyendot.geo and I can give you personalized information as to what you might want to consider, and I can keep it right at, or well under $1000 for sub, amp(s), component speakers...etc. I'm home after 7pm almost every night so gimme a holler, I'd rather not have to explain on the forum, i'll prolly forget what i'm talking about

Rear fill is good if you're going to carry passengers in the rear of your car, however if you are not going to, there is no need. Currrently in my car I have no rear fill (well they're filled, just not powered) because my 4 channel burnt and I am using a 2 channel just for the fronts.

-Latez

 

[Viperoni]

Originally posted by: Shockwave

Originally posted by: Viperoni
Shockwave's right on the money with everything, listen to him

Another vote for the Shiva... great sub for the money.
If you really want to go loud though, it's VERY tough to beat an Adire Tempest for SPL and Sound Quality.
I have a sub very similar to the Tempest and I love it

Thanks for the compliment I spent ALOT of time studying this.
So, whatchya got? i have a 12" Brahma...You usin a Brahma??

And for anyone who's serious about audio, I cant recommend Loudspeaker Design Cookbook by Vance Dickason. Amazon has it for just under 40 bucks.

Anyways, about the amp selection. Yes, if you want rear fill either get 2 2channel amps or 1 4 channel amp. You'll need a channel per "point" (Front left, front right, rear left, rear right)
For the sub amp you can do either or. Get a mono or a 2 channel and bridge it or a 2 channel and run 1 channel per coil. Alot of subs are dual voice coil so that would work. Or parallel the coils to 1 channel. Either or. Check some wiring wizards from those links I gave you and you'll understand a bit better.

the ONLY thing that bothers me about recommending the Shiva, if memory serves it likes a bigger box then some other brands. However, theres nothing like the look on your friends face when they see it, think its some no name budget sub then proceeds to shake the fillings out

One reason I prefer larger cone speakers, although they take up more trunk space, is they can play lower more effectively. If you want to run low infrasonic frequencies, you need a BIG cone that can move air. Thats why for sound quality a larger cone is actually preferable (Not always, just work with me here for a minute)
If you want clean sound quality, running your subs within spec is imperetive. The more a sub is pushed, the more it degrades in sound quality. Well, if you want loud sound quality, what happens to our sub? Its having to play low frequencies loudly, which is causing it to have to move alot of air. Now a 10" cone will have to move farther then a 15" cone to displace an equal amount of air. Thus, our 10" will reach its limits before a 15" reachs its limits...Thus, our 10 is distorting and stressed before our 15. Thus, larger cones can allow for better sound quality at high volumes.
Thats not always the case, but as a general overview as to why I prefer larger cones.....
And since I KNOW you've heard the "Larger speakers arent as tight" argument...Think of this. If you have 1 horsepower to move 1 pound, wouldnt the end result be the same as 10 horsepower to move 10 pounds?
Its not cone size, its motor force. See here for a better description.

15inch Dayton DVC (think Tempest ) in 1.75cf sealed with 450watts RMS doing ~140db in a 91 Topaz (see link in sig).

The Shiva does indeed need 1.5cf sealed, it'll take 500watts RMS no problem in that box though. Which sure isn't bad for a JL/RF smoking $125 good sounding sub

Here's a couple of things: "Tight" is commonly used to describe a lack of lower end bass, making the midbass region more prominent.
"Hard Hitting" is typically an overboosted midbass region.
"Warm" is sometimes used to describe either flat response or a slightly prominent low-end.
"Flabby" is sometimes used to describe an overabundance of low end.

One possibly reason why 15's tend to have bad SQ reputation is because often they're put in boxes too small for them.... I should know, my box is too small.
But a Tempest in 2.5-3.5cf sealed with 500watts RMS will own your car. Everything will shake and vibrate



BTW: RF used to be really good, but I think their quality has gone downhill.
MTX's has (different (cheaper cost and quality) construction)) from what I hear.

 

[virtuamike]

Originally posted by: sygyzy
Okay, I just woke up!

Looks like more than one of you guys agrees that rear fill is worthless but I don't like the idea of completely eliminating it so I have a few questions.


1. By your design, are you completely eliiminating ANY rear fill? I.e. you disconnect/remove the rear spears?

2. Is it possible...to put Adire components in my front, keep my stock factory rears, and somehow regulate the amp so it doesn't blow the rear? I assume the Adires have a much higher RMS than the rear factory speakers and if I tried to play them at the same volume, they might blow right? Any cons to this?

1. You could just keep your stock rears and run them off the headunit. That way you still get sound if you insist, just won't get very loud.

2. You could run a 4 channel amp, with 2 channels on the Adires and 2 on the stock rears, but it'd be a waste. You're better off bridging the amp to run the Kodas and using the HU to power the rears. Besides, the Kodas like the power.

Listen to your system without rearfill after you have everything installed. If you're really missing it, then consider putting rearfill in at that point. No use in talking about it now, haven't even heard the setup yet.

 

[sygyzy]

Okay,

I think I am about ready but I just want to double check something.

Say I get the Adire sub and Adire components for the front. I won't run rear fills (will disconnect my rear stock speakers).

A. Should I get a 4 ch amp and bridge it to 2 channel and run the front speakers? This will give me the option of running 2 ways for rear fill in the future if I decide to right?

Or

B. should I just get a 2 channel amp?

If I go with A, how do I determine how much power? What about with B?

If I have the HU power the rear speakers, will it know there is a rear channel and send data correctly to it? Will it be smart enough to send the data there? Does any modern music have surround capabilities? I.e. like DTS or 5.1? If not, then I assume the rear is an exact copy of the fronts right?

Is everyone in agreeance (Durst's word is really a word!) that I should eliminate rear fill?

 

[Shockwave]

Originally posted by: sygyzy
Okay,

I think I am about ready but I just want to double check something.

Say I get the Adire sub and Adire components for the front. I won't run rear fills (will disconnect my rear stock speakers).

A. Should I get a 4 ch amp and bridge it to 2 channel and run the front speakers? This will give me the option of running 2 ways for rear fill in the future if I decide to right?

Or

B. should I just get a 2 channel amp?

If I go with A, how do I determine how much power? What about with B?

If I have the HU power the rear speakers, will it know there is a rear channel and send data correctly to it? Will it be smart enough to send the data there? Does any modern music have surround capabilities? I.e. like DTS or 5.1? If not, then I assume the rear is an exact copy of the fronts right?

Is everyone in agreeance (Durst's word is really a word!) that I should eliminate rear fill?

A or B....Depends on your money. I'd do B myself, always nice to have the option of upgrading using existing equipment. However, its also easier to find "high power" (Relative to components) 2 channel amps instead of 4 channel for a decent price. If you do a 4 channel, I'd look at spending a little extra to get one thats at least 80 x 4 or higher.

No, the HU wont "know" theres rear speakers, but it wont know there isnt either in terms of sending the audio out. Next time your driving, set your fader to maximum front. Then maximum rear. Thats exactly what it would be like with Kodas up front and stock in the rear (Except the Kodas will sound like 46.35 times better)

 

[mztykal]

Wow, I know I'm getting to this post late. But here goes anyway...

Front Fill:
- Rainbow Audio Soundline 6.5" components ( http://www.ampmanaudio.com/products/details.asp?id=962 )

Rear Fill:
- Rainbow Audion Soundline 6.5" coaxials ( http://www.ampmanaudio.com/products/details.asp?id=958 )

Amps:
- Speakers - MTX Thunder 4244 ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3019579283&category=39742 )
- Sub - MTX Thunder 4250D ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3019330097&category=18797 )

Sub:
- Dayton Titanic MKII ( http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=295-412&DID=7 )

Wiring:
- All wiring - ( http://www.knukonceptz.com )

I'd include more info, but I got class tomorrow and it's late. I'll try to edit this later on though. Total price for everything should be under $850.00 shipped to you. Add on another 50 bucks to get a box made for the sub and you should be good. Considering you do the install yourself. Otherwise the price may go up a bit depending on what shop you take it to. But you should be happy with the quality overall of all the components I chose.

I'll be running Rainbow Audio Soundline comps and Soundline coaxs in my car. Also I'd love to be running a Dayton MKII. I've heard it outperform a lot of high-end JL, Kicker, Infinity, and Rockford subs. Just make sure the enclosure is built correctly.

Enjoy!

 

[Shockwave]

Originally posted by: mztykal
Wow, I know I'm getting to this post late. But here goes anyway...

Front Fill:
- Rainbow Audio Soundline 6.5" components ( http://www.ampmanaudio.com/products/details.asp?id=962 )

Rear Fill:
- Rainbow Audion Soundline 6.5" coaxials ( http://www.ampmanaudio.com/products/details.asp?id=958 )

Amps:
- Speakers - MTX Thunder 4244 ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3019579283&category=39742 )
- Sub - MTX Thunder 4250D ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3019330097&category=18797 )

Sub:
- Dayton Titanic MKII ( http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=295-412&DID=7 )

Wiring:
- All wiring - ( http://www.knukonceptz.com )

I'd include more info, but I got class tomorrow and it's late. I'll try to edit this later on though. Total price for everything should be under $850.00 shipped to you. Add on another 50 bucks to get a box made for the sub and you should be good. Considering you do the install yourself. Otherwise the price may go up a bit depending on what shop you take it to. But you should be happy with the quality overall of all the components I chose.

I'll be running Rainbow Audio Soundline comps and Soundline coaxs in my car. Also I'd love to be running a Dayton MKII. I've heard it outperform a lot of high-end JL, Kicker, Infinity, and Rockford subs. Just make sure the enclosure is built correctly.

Enjoy!

Nice choice on the comp's. Havent heard Rainbow's, but heard good about them. Would like to run some, but the higher end is fairly expensive.

 

[LS20]

Originally posted by: Muadib
I'm at least 5 years out of the car audio upgrade craze, but I have a few questions.

Why should he replace his HU? New speakers & amps will improve his system 10 fold. I'm pretty sure he said his current unit has rca outputs, so wouldn't his 1k be better spent just upgrading the speakers & amps and not trying to do all 3 with the same money?

Someone mentioned crossovers, I wouldn't include them with only 1k to spend, unless they have really come down in price. Wouldn't filters be the better way to go?

How are Rockford Fosgate amps these days? Back in the mid to late 90's,
they were outstanding in quality, sound and price.

better hu = possibly better sound... better DAC , higher SNR-ratios, cleaner signals, etc... and they arent expensive so it wont pull the funds out of other parts

RF makes really mass-market, watered down products nowaday





unless he gets super power hungry speakers up front, id just amp all the speakers, because on some head units you can turn off the internal amplifier for slightly higher SQL

 

[glen]

Originally posted by: sygyzy
Okay,

I think I am about ready but I just want to double check something.

Say I get the Adire sub and Adire components for the front. I won't run rear fills (will disconnect my rear stock speakers).

A. Should I get a 4 ch amp and bridge it to 2 channel and run the front speakers? This will give me the option of running 2 ways for rear fill in the future if I decide to right?

Or

B. should I just get a 2 channel amp?

If I go with A, how do I determine how much power? What about with B?



If I have the HU power the rear speakers, will it know there is a rear channel and send data correctly to it? Will it be smart enough to send the data there? Does any modern music have surround capabilities? I.e. like DTS or 5.1? If not, then I assume the rear is an exact copy of the fronts right?

Is everyone in agreeance (Durst's word is really a word!) that I should eliminate rear fill?

I have rear fill.
But, YOU are trying to save money.
That is a simple thing to cut out.
Another is spending too much on ampifiers.

Get the Alpine I recomended and use in my car.
It is only $200.
You can run it 2/3/4/5
I run it 5 ways, one to sub, 2 to front and 2 to rear.
It is plenty loud.
Remember there is little real world difference between 10 watts and 100 watts.
If you want it louder, it is far easier and cheaper to INCREASE the surface area of your drivers.
Assuming everything else is the same, 1 watt to a pair of 15"s will be louder than 100 watts to a pair of 12"s!

 

[Shockwave]

Glen, you never responded to my post about doubling power. Now your saying that 10 times as much power is not noticable?!
And even go so far as to say 100 times the power wouldnt be as loud as increasing surface area from a 12 to a 15?!?!

Now, I dont like to just flame, but seriously, please respond to my post about doubling power. Then we'll work on this 10 and 100 times as much power issue.

 

[Spac3d]

sygyzy, listen to what Shockwave has to say. In this thread, I think he is the only one who really listened to you and gave good recomendations.

 

[Shockwave]

Originally posted by: Spac3d
sygyzy, listen to what Shockwave has to say. In this thread, I think he is the only one who really listened to you and gave good recomendations.

And as the pedestral rises, so too does the fall......

 

[glen]

Originally posted by: Shockwave
Glen, you never responded to my post about doubling power. Now your saying that 10 times as much power is not noticable?!
And even go so far as to say 100 times the power wouldnt be as loud as increasing surface area from a 12 to a 15?!?!

Now, I dont like to just flame, but seriously, please respond to my post about doubling power. Then we'll work on this 10 and 100 times as much power issue.

You disagree with me.
Ok.
What can I do to prove it?
not much.
I stand by what I have said.
If you want to save money, do it on the amp.
that is clear.
10 watts to 100 watts very small change in sound and a HUGE change in money!
12" to 15" HUGE change in sound, and not too much change in price, re Shivas and Tempest.
have you had pysics?
Do I need to start from Newton?
I probably can't outline a formal proof here.
You like Adire, go to the web page read the white papers oin the tempest.
They say 50 watts is enough.
That does not prove anything, but it suggests that power is over rated. read the white paper.
Heck take the efficiency of the:
12" Shiva 87.2 dB @ 1W/1m a pair will cost $250
15" Tempest 89.1 dB @ 1W/1m a pair will cost $300
A 10 watt amp on the Tempest will be about what a 100 will be on the Shiva.
Now, remember, these numbers are for a specific hz, in the real world, the tempest will become increasingly MORE efficient the lower you go.


This is talking about 10 to 40 watts being fine in a home.
Now the cabin gain in a car means you can do with even less.


http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/SealedTempestApplications.PDF

2.1 power Amplifier Selection
At first glance, tempest would seem to indicate a need for a 750W amplifier, since that's the power rating of the driver. however, this si nto the case. Very good results can be achieved with Tempest running from as little as 40W perchannel. Even smaller amplifiers (10WPC) can result in a musically satisfying experience...

 

[glen]

Originally posted by: Spac3d
sygyzy, listen to what Shockwave has to say. In this thread, I think he is the only one who really listened to you and gave good recomendations.

That Glen guy is giving you the good advise and backing it up with about as much pysics as is reasonable for internet forums.

 

[Shockwave]

12" Shiva 87.2 dB @ 1W/1m a pair will cost $250
15" Tempest 89.1 dB @ 1W/1m a pair will cost $300

Ok, well lets put light on our first problem. thats low level signals. Things change, and quite drastically when you switch to high level. But, thats kinda how the ratings are so we'll go with that.....

87.2 @ 1W/ m. Double power we get 3 Db increase yes? We have to agree on that or we get nowhere.
15" = 89.1 Db...
12" with RMSx2 = 90.2 Db.

Approx 1 Db difference. Again, thats using low level signals, which while accurate can become quite inaccurate at high levels. I'd much rather see a comparison of say 100 watts vs 200, or even better 300 to 600 (As thats about where the Shiva is hittin the limit)
Thats also a specific example. We could get broader and throw in motor type, suspension type and whatnot, but I think thats outside the scope of this converstion.

Now, would you hear a 1Db difference? Dunno, depends on the ear. Can I? Yes, with test tones. Music? No way in hell. Music is so dynamic to begin with 1 Db wont be noticable to me. To others? I doubt it, but perhaps. B

 

[Shockwave]

Heres a plot of the two together. The Shiva is slightly louder with twice the power higher up. Not until very low (Below what we may hear anyways) does the Tempest gain the lead. Box size could DRASTICALLY change that, unfortunately I dont think WinISD allows a free air type application.... As such I set the boxes so the Qtc was the same.

Also, i have no idea how accurate that really is. I consider myself smart enough to design a good system and know why I'm doin what I'm doin, but this gets to the limits of my abilites

Sub_comparison.jpg
Forgot to add...
Shiva = 100 watts
Tempest = 50

 

[glen]

Getting to my limit of abilities also.
So, I e-mailed Adire.
They can give us real world numbers.

 

[Shockwave]

Originally posted by: glen
Getting to my limit of abilities also.
So, I e-mailed Adire.
They can give us real world numbers.

Excellent, I appreciate it. Could you PM me a copy of the email please if possible? Or better, post it here and delete contact info or anything else of that nature.

****EDIT*****

Better yet, could you ask if Dan Wiggins could chime in on this. I really hate to bother him, but he would be able to really get down n dirty and give us a real world truthful explanation.


****EDIT****

Another request for assistance

 

[glen]

Normally I email Dan Wiggins, but I thought I would use the tech email address.

 

[Shockwave]

Originally posted by: glen
Normally I email Dan Wiggins, but I thought I would use the tech email address.

Works for me
Either way, hopefully he can spare a few moments for us techies. If he does...Prepare to get your learn hat on

And Glen, I want to make it clear. Although I dont agree with your power theories, as I said on the other forum, to me its not a matter of whos right or wrong. i want to know the truth as well as you I'm sure. And more importantly, help me to better educate people in the future. As I said, God knows theres plenty enough of myths out there the way it is. Last thing we need is to spread some more!

In other words, I'll try not to flame if you dont