Car Audio: Help me build a decent system for $1000

[glen]

Originally posted by: ShockwaveAnd subs are just power hungry machines by nature. Takes alot more power to move a 12" cone vs a 1" cone.

I normally agree with Shockwave, but not here.
A sub is ALWAYS more efficient than your tweeters.
It needs LESS power to be as loud.
but, for even sound you want the sub louder.
You want a roll off from low to high of about 1.5 db/octave, so:
20hz +0
40hz - 1.5 db
80hz -3 db
160hz -4.5 db
320hz -6 db
640hz -7.5 db
1280hz -9 db
2560hz -10.5 db
5120 -12 db
10240 -13.5 db
20480 -15 db

You can get that 15db easily because the subs are much much more efficient that the tweets.
25 Watts to a pair of 12"s in a car is loud as hell.

 

[glen]

Originally posted by: sygyzy
Those $1500 amp is too expensive.

I like the looks of the JL and JBL. Now if I go for JBL (best bang for buck), I will need to spend extra for the audio crossovers, for sure? Like they don't have them built in or something?

Any other brands worth looking at? I don't like the Phoenix ones. Juggling between JL and JBL unless you have other suggestions.

Oh yes, why not pick out a HU while we are at it. Need it to have ATT and MP3/CDRW playback. Simple eh? You like Eclipse? They have three different models and I don't know why. They all seem to have the same features. Which specific model do you like?

How about other HU brands? Clarion? Kenwood?

look for the Alpine I showed you
or
the Visionik Shockwave showed you.

 

[sygyzy]

I don't get how you guys have such huge variances in your schools of thought.

One is suggesting some 600 watts and the others says 4% of that (25 watts) is plenty for a sub!

BTW, I can only want a SINGLE sub.

 

[glen]

Well, since db is a log scale 25 and 600 are almost the same.

 

[virtuamike]

Here's what I'd get for $1000 if you're insisting on sticking with the same brand:

www.ikesound.com [free shipping!!!!]

$199 JBL 600.1
$149 JBL 80.4 (run it bridged, 160Wx2 @ 4ohms)

www.adireaudio.com [dunno where else to get them anymore]

$349 Adire Koda 6.1
$125 Adire Shiva

That's about $825. Get a sealed box for the Shiva, between 1.6cu and 1.9cu would be a good volume, that'll run around $80 hopefully. Plus wires from www.knukonceptz.com and you're all set. Your frontstage will sound awesome.

Shiva is a great bang for the buck sub. Great low end extension, a little lacking the higher up it goes. I installed one a couple weeks ago, and it was amazing how loud it could get. Not as smooth or fast hitting as the more expensive subs and response was a little slow (then again the box was 2.0cu) but hey, can't complain for $125. If you don't care about extension below 40Hz or you want something that plays the 60Hz-100Hz range better or if size of box is an issue, might want to consider Elemental Designs (E12K).

Me personally, I have a frankenstein system. Monitor-1 4.70 front amp, JBL 80.4 rear and 1200.1 sub. Kef Q-160 fronts, MB Quart QM160.03kx rears and ID Max sub. Kenwood KDC-X569 HU, Audiocontrol 4XS, knukonceptz wires, Phoenix Gold fuse block, terminals from partsexpress. Haven't picked up deadener yet. Wahahha, beat that for brand singularity. Spent a little over $1300 on everything, but I bargain shopped like crazy and it's worth every penny.

 

[Shockwave]

Originally posted by: sygyzy
Those $1500 amp is too expensive.

I like the looks of the JL and JBL. Now if I go for JBL (best bang for buck), I will need to spend extra for the audio crossovers, for sure? Like they don't have them built in or something?

Any other brands worth looking at? I don't like the Phoenix ones. Juggling between JL and JBL unless you have other suggestions.

Oh yes, why not pick out a HU while we are at it. Need it to have ATT and MP3/CDRW playback. Simple eh? You like Eclipse? They have three different models and I don't know why. They all seem to have the same features. Which specific model do you like?

How about other HU brands? Clarion? Kenwood?

The built in crossovers of either the JBL or JL amps would be sufficient for your needs. I think the JL is a bit more feature filled...ie...You would have more control, but the JBl would get the job done like you'd need as well so I wouldnt let that be the determining factor. As for other brands...Bunches. I'm not even going to list them all, theres alot of amp manufacturers. Its mainly personal preference and what you like the looks of or price of. The Phoenix Gold Titanium amps just darn near turn me on, I REALLy like the looks of them. But, there a bit more then the JL's and dont have as many features on the crossovers, hence my hesitation to get them. I'd have to run external crossovers, which is even more money. So....Havent decided for myself. Orion used to be good, but they recently got bought out by Directed. Qualtiy should still be good though. Same with SoundStream, except I think it was Power Acoustik which bought them. Back in early mid 90's SS was a damed good company. Man, I miss my SS amps

As for HU's, your gonna have to do that on you rown. I really dont know, I only follow Eclipse. Once an Eclipse owner, always an Eclipse owner
But the other brands are good for sure...Pioneer, JVC, Kenwood.

And yes, I was just putting the Sinfoni amps out there to drool over. If I had the money....High end gear is so sexy. Arc Audio, Brax, Sinfoni, TruTechnology to a lesser extent, McIntosh, Genesis....Denon makes a badass HU, but its as unfeature filled anything you'll ever find. The damned thing doesnt even have a clock! And it weighs in at a hefty $2500 bucks. Thats 2500 worth of pure SQ, its ONLY purpose in your dash is to reproduce music as accurately as possible. No fancy features, no kiddie style graphics, no clock. Just music. Nak is very well regarded too, although it might be hard to find anymore as they filed bankruptcy some time ago. I dont know where they stand anymore. You could even run to BB and grab Rockford Fosgate, they make solid stuff. FYI, Rockford owns MB Quart. Just a tidbit of useless info.
Nak HU
Nak amp
Nak HU's (before Denon) were pretty much abou tthe best for SQ you could run. And I like the look of the Nak amps, nice and clean. I was told by someone well regarded in the industry though that really it wasnt anything other equipment wasnt. He said Nak's had built there name on a killer tape deck in the mid 80's or so. A Dragon or something, and kinda rode the name they made off that for a while.

And because I know you want to see a 2500 HU without a clock...Denon HU

 

[sygyzy]

You are recommending Koda components? Wow they are pricey. What about my rears?

glen - I haven't taken physics in years so I don't really understand your log comment. Sorry

What about accessories? You guys keep mentioning the box and knu wires. How do I know how much, how long, what gauge, type. Should I buy this stuff myself? Won't the car audio install place have this stuff?

 

[PuppyLovinGuy]

PUNK!
Why don't you invest that $1000 in the stock market.
You already have a sound system, grow up.
Even if you lose all your money in the stock market in the later years the experience will leave you with more than an outdated and expensive pile of garbage.

 

[XCLAN]

this is my suggestion.
Get head unit and an amplified sub....the pair will cost you 600$ at most {unless u get greedy and go for real high end} Make sure the Head unit has MP3 playback.
the sub, maybe check out the Infinity Basslink.
The improvent in sound from these 2 alone will make wonders.
After you have that all setup....wait for a nice sale on some speakers....go to best buy, circuit city{or my preference professional audio shops} and test the speakers....whateer ones u like and are in yer price range write it down and shop around.....wait for a sale{i always wait, i'm patient}.

after you have all a headunit the sub and 4 new speakers if you are not happy....go buy a amp for the speakers{probably not necessary as you said you dont want extreme volumes.

BTW i have a dozen subs...half a dozen amps...a few cd players, spare speakers.....tons of crap in my garage from my previous systems{sometimes i buy new stuff just cuzz i cant help it}.....so i been arond a while and if you wanna lay down 1000$ all of the above would be my suggestion.

I would probably go for components in the front and coaxials in the rear.....


I would Probably do all Kappa speakers

 

[virtuamike]

Oh, and you gotta look at how everything is set up too. The JBL 600.1 is a 600W amp @ 1 or 2 ohms, but only 300W @ 4ohms. The Shiva is 8 ohm DVC, wire that in parallel and you get 4 ohm resistance, so in the end it'll only get 300W from the 600.1.

Now there's cheaper amps out there that'll put out 300Wx1 @ 4 ohms. Heck, I sold my Rockford 250.2 for $100 and used that to drive the Shiva, sounded great with 250W. I'm not a fan of brand singularity, I think some companies are better suited at some things than others. I think amp brands like JBL and Rockford are better at putting out raw power, so they're better for driving subs (don't really need an SQ amp to run your sub). Other brands like Arc and Nakamichi are better at putting out clean undistorted power so I'd rather use something like that for fronts. If I were you, I'd forget trying to stay make everything look good together on paper, your goal should be to make everything SOUND good together in your car.

And I agree, 1 10" or 12" is plenty for your Celica. It's not a big car, a single sub with 300W-600W will get plenty loud especially if you don't plan on putting in sound deadener.

Oh, and the xover on JBL amps SUCK. OMG, there's all sorts of noise bleeding through. And sure you're supposed to tune a xover by ear but still, it's damn impossible to tell by looking what frequency the thing is crossed over at. Then again I'm just picky.

Headunit? Budget? Try the Clarion DX735MP from ikesound.com ($189 shipped), haven't heard anything bad about it yet. I'd stay away from Pioneer if MP3 playback is important to you, the Pioneers have a terrible pause between track changes. Kenwood eXcelon series is nice but this year's model line sucks in terms of features and price, compared to last year's models, I only got the 569 because I scored a good deal from crutchfield. Alpine MP3 units are nice too, but pricey.

 

[sygyzy]

The whole 2 ohms/4ohms thing has me highly confused. I know it has to do with the amps and speakers and wattage and output but I really don't know where to begin with that. Any really simple explanations? I think this thread might already have some clues, I'll go back and read it again.

Does anyone know why PuppyLovinGuy is so upset?

 

[glen]

2 12" subs and a 25 watt amp will cost less or equal to one 12" and a 500 watta amp.
It will also be louder.

I also agree with the suggestion that you get the ability to play back mp3s burned on the CDRs.

I also agree with using Shivas for subs.
I have 4 of their larger brethren, the Tempest, in my home for a sub.

 

[Shockwave]

I'll let you figure out the Ohm thing on your own, but this may help...

And I thought the new Mark II (III?) Shiva wasnt 8 ohm anymore...not sure though...

RF Wiring Wizard
Voice Coils
JL Wiring Wizard (Rather proprietary due to JL's odd VC's)
Ohms Law
Series / Parallel wiring
More on DVC's
Adires Wiring guide

You may wanna read this too...
Shiva White Paper
Shiva Application papers

 

[glen]

Originally posted by: sygyzy
The whole 2 ohms/4ohms thing has me highly confused. I know it has to do with the amps and speakers and wattage and output but I really don't know where to begin with that. Any really simple explanations? I think this thread might already have some clues, I'll go back and read it again.

Well, the cool thing is it can DOUBLE your power for free!
The bad thing is, you would need special test equiptment to detect that it actually was louder.
You would not percieve any difference, so don't worry about it.

 

[Shockwave]

Originally posted by: glen

Originally posted by: sygyzy
The whole 2 ohms/4ohms thing has me highly confused. I know it has to do with the amps and speakers and wattage and output but I really don't know where to begin with that. Any really simple explanations? I think this thread might already have some clues, I'll go back and read it again.

Well, the cool thing is it can DOUBLE your power for free!
The bad thing is, you would need special test equiptment to detect that it actually was louder.
You would not percieve any difference, so don't worry about it.

Your telling me you couldnt hear a change with the doubling of power??

 

[virtuamike]

Originally posted by: XCLAN
this is my suggestion.
Get head unit and an amplified sub....the pair will cost you 600$ at most {unless u get greedy and go for real high end} Make sure the Head unit has MP3 playback.
the sub, maybe check out the Infinity Basslink.
The improvent in sound from these 2 alone will make wonders.
After you have that all setup....wait for a nice sale on some speakers....go to best buy, circuit city{or my preference professional audio shops} and test the speakers....whateer ones u like and are in yer price range write it down and shop around.....wait for a sale{i always wait, i'm patient}.

after you have all a headunit the sub and 4 new speakers if you are not happy....go buy a amp for the speakers{probably not necessary as you said you dont want extreme volumes.

BTW i have a dozen subs...half a dozen amps...a few cd players, spare speakers.....tons of crap in my garage from my previous systems{sometimes i buy new stuff just cuzz i cant help it}.....so i been arond a while and if you wanna lay down 1000$ all of the above would be my suggestion.

I would probably go for components in the front and coaxials in the rear.....


I would Probably do all Kappa speakers

Infinity. One word. Ewwww.

If you get the Clarion DXZ735MP ($189), Shiva ($125), JBL 600.1 ($199), and a box and some wires, you're looking at around $700, but I guarantee it'll sound a hell of a lot better than a random MP3 HU and an Infinity Basslink. And yes, this would be considered high-end compared to the mass-market stuff at Circuit City or Best Buy, but in the car audio scene this stuff is considered entry-level.

I only recommended the Kodas because you said you wanted SQ, and the Kodas are a great SQ component set. I've heard Boston, Focal, MB Quart, Diamond, JL, and they all have their plus and minuses. But with your budget, I think Kodas would be the best fit. The Focals and MB Quarts get loud and detailed but way too bright, my poor ears can't stand them. Nothing really special about Boston, sounded flat and dull to me. Ditto with the JL, sounded ok for the price but there's better. Personally I like the Diamonds, very smooth highs, laid back, not as strong in the mids and midbass as MBQ or Focal but enough to sound good. But the cheapest I've found is $327 + shipping for a pair of Hex S600S, and at that price might as well go for Kodas, midbass and off-axis response on Kodas is phenomenal.

And yeah, I'd scrap the rear fill, no need for it unless you have rear passengers, and I can't imagine you driving people around constantly in the back of a Celica. Spend the extra money from rearfill on your frontstage. Almost a shame to run the Kodas off a JBL 80.4 though, if you're willing to shop refurb/used and mix brands, you can get a Nak PA1002 (100Wx2, the silver older models) for about $150 or used Arc 2100 for around $200 (the Arc will be tough to find).

 

[glen]

 

[glen]

Well, driver efficency is not linear.
Let's assume doubling power nets you 3db on an "ideal" driver.
Real world drivers will not give you an extra 3db towards the end of their excursion range, for a reall world gain of 1.5 db.
1.5 is is generally considered to be about the limit of our ability to detect a volume change.

 

[glen]

Well, driver efficency is not linear.
Let's assume doubling power nets you 3db on an "ideal" driver.
Real world drivers will not give you an extra 3db towards the end of their excursion range, for a reall world gain of 1.5 db.
1.5 is is generally considered to be about the limit of our ability to detect a volume change.

 

[glen]

Well, driver efficency is not linear.
Let's assume doubling power nets you 3db on an "ideal" driver.
Real world drivers will not give you an extra 3db towards the end of their excursion range, for a reall world gain of 1.5 db.
1.5 is is generally considered to be about the limit of our ability to detect a volume change.

 

[glen]

Well, driver efficency is not linear.
Let's assume doubling power nets you 3db on an "ideal" driver.
Real world drivers will not give you an extra 3db towards the end of their excursion range, for a reall world gain of 1.5 db.
1.5 is is generally considered to be about the limit of our ability to detect a volume change.

 

[Shockwave]

Glen...I got ya the first time man
I would tend to agree to an extent. But, doubling power may still not be reaching a drivers limits. Say, a 200 watt driver. You go from 50 to 100 watts. That different should be noticable. I'll also say that it would depend at what volume we're playing it at. The louder it is to begin with, the harder it is to hear subtle changes. Going from 160 to 161.5 db may not be noticable. Going from 90 to 91.5 would be much easier to notice. Thats also assuming compression. Lets say the 3 db (On paper I know)
Now we go from 90 to 93. That should be very apparent. Versus 160 to 163, again i dont think that would be noticable. I guess my problem was you seemed to rather have a blanket statement of "You wont notice it" whereas I think it really depends on the situation. In some instances a doubling of power could be what it takes to really make a stand up system...Say, a W7 going from 500 to 1000 watts....


Mike, do you have Kodas?? I've been thinking of getting them, its those or JL's (I like the sound of the XR's) but the low end response on paper looks iffy on the Kodas. Also I agree Quarts and Focals tweets are a bit bright for me!

 

[virtuamike]

No, I don't have a pair of Kodas, wish I did though. I wouldn't worry about the low end on the Kodas, heck they recommend playing these full range. I heard the JL XRs and I wasn't impressed at all, heck Diamond S600S puts them to shame. Focals are detailed and punchy but I don't like the highs, listened to a pair of 165K2s. Utopias on the other hand, OMG those are incredible, but we're talking a $1000 MSRP set of speakers. I haven't heard Rainbow, CDT, Crystal, or DynaAudio yet, really wanted to check those out too.

 

[LS20]

whatever you do, just dont buy from ikesound.com

I ordered my Alpine 9811 online on April 9th. on April 14th, i got an email saying my CC info was incorrect. (never happened before in my ~50 online purchases). I called them back immediately that morning, and gave them the info again, to which they confirmed. My CC wasnt charged until the 16th. On the 18th, i got an email saying that, "sorry, but the alpine cda 9811 will be shipped [to me] within the next 10 business days". what i took from that is that they meant it wont be shipped until the 11th day. even today i havent even gotten a tracking number.


4-9 - order
4-14 - reorder
4-16 - order charged
4-18 - order processed?
4-22 - still NOTHING


so far i've given them 3 emails and 1 phone calls and all of them have been unanswered

yes, they do give you their own 1 year warranty, but if they are this careless about a PURCHASE, how do you think they will treat warranty claims? i mean, might as well buy a product off ebay for cheaper and get it faster, right?

in retrospect, i shouldve bought a jvc sh909 cuz its 50$ cheaper, and it woulve had it by now

 

[Shockwave]

Originally posted by: LS20
whatever you do, just dont buy from ikesound.com

I ordered my Alpine 9811 online on April 9th. on April 14th, i got an email saying my CC info was incorrect. (never happened before in my ~50 online purchases). I called them back immediately that morning, and gave them the info again, to which they confirmed. My CC wasnt charged until the 16th. On the 18th, i got an email saying that, "sorry, but the alpine cda 9811 will be shipped [to me] within the next 10 business days". what i took from that is that they meant it wont be shipped until the 11th day. even today i havent even gotten a tracking number.


4-9 - order
4-14 - reorder
4-16 - order charged
4-18 - order processed?
4-22 - still NOTHING


so far i've given them 3 emails and 1 phone calls and all of them have been unanswered

yes, they do give you their own 1 year warranty, but if they are this careless about a PURCHASE, how do you think they will treat warranty claims? i mean, might as well buy a product off ebay for cheaper and get it faster, right?

in retrospect, i shouldve bought a jvc sh909 cuz its 50$ cheaper, and it woulve had it by now

I believe thats slightly out of context in regard sot the full post on SD. After that, three or four other people reply that they have had excellent results with ikesound.

I'm not vouching either way though. never dealt with them. I've used adireaudio.com, knukonceptz.com and ampman.com