Cap and Trade

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Slew Foot
A lot of the Obama legislation is pushed down our throats without ample time to study the effects. Whenever someone says we must do something fast or because of fear, thats the time to worry.

Happened under Bush, too. We cannot allow Congress to continue acting this way.

What we desperately need (and will never get) is an inviolable rule that when legislation of this magnitude is coming a vote that all members of Congress have the completed legislation in their hands a week before.

Like I said, never happen. People would then have a chance to examine important laws that will impact their lives, and we can't have that. Party First.

 

[Atreus21]

How is it this doesn't prompt wailing and gnashing of teeth in the streets?

Congressmen, our fellow citizens elected to represent us, just introduced and passed a 1200 page bill, two-thirds of which they won't let us see. Why do we even care that they let us see any of it at all? If congress were to publically pass a bill no one knew anything about, would anything happen?

Seriously, is it that much of a stretch?

Have we gone mad?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Atreus21
How is it this doesn't prompt wailing and gnashing of teeth in the streets?

Congressmen, our fellow citizens elected to represent us, just introduced and passed a 1200 page bill, two-thirds of which they won't let us see. Why do we even care that they let us see any of it at all? If congress were to publically pass a bill no one knew anything about, would anything happen?

Seriously, is it that much of a stretch?

Have we gone mad?

Ya, the Tea Party II. :roll:

Shouldn't happen, but your a few years late with your "outrage".

 

[Rockinacoustic]

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: sandorski
In a few years none of you will even care about this. In fact, amongst those still caring, many will have changed their minds from Opposition to Support. You're all acting like this is some new Scheme Al Gore cooked up in some Gas Guzzling SUV. It was done before(Bush Sr as President) and was a great success then.

Dumb, and a lie. This has not been done before, and it's an incredibly harmful thing to the economy based on junk and unproven science, by anti Americans who dont even have the balls to confront skeptics of their junk science.

Incorrect

You are correct, sir. :thumbsup:


I thought everyone knew this.

"This is similar to the cap and trade program enacted by the Clean Air Act of 1990, which reduced the sulfur emissions that cause acid rain, and it met the goals at a much lower cost than industry or government predicted."

From the EPA's website, I was able to find literature on the legislation passed in 1990. Yes in principal it has the same aim in reducing harmful atmospheric emissions as Obama's bill, but one part really sticks out:

Understanding the Clean Air Act

State and Local Governments' Role

It makes sense for state and local air pollution agencies to take the lead in carrying out the Clean Air Act. They are able to develop solutions for pollution problems that require special understanding of local industries, geography, housing, and travel patterns, as well as other factors.

State, local, and tribal governments also monitor air quality, inspect facilities under their jurisdictions and enforce Clean Air Act regulations.

States have to develop State Implementation Plans (SIPs) that outline how each state will control air pollution under the Clean Air Act. A SIP is a collection of the regulations, programs and policies that a state will use to clean up polluted areas. The states must involve the public and industries through hearings and opportunities to comment on the development of each state plan.

Again, who knows the fine print in this current bill. But enacting it on the federal level is just another boon to Big Government. I'd be kinder to it if it followed the provisions of the Clean Air Act in allowing the states to "cap and trade" in the interest of their local industries.

 

[sciwizam]

Originally posted by: Rockinacoustic

Again, who knows the fine print in this current bill. But enacting it on the federal level is just another boon to Big Government. I'd be kinder to it if it followed the provisions of the Clean Air Act in allowing the states to "cap and trade" in the interest of their local industries.

I'd be surprised if anyone knows the normal print.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: JKing106

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: ZeGermans
I'd happily pay an extra 6% per year in energy bills if this bill actually did anything other than invoke easily met requirements that basically just give companies carte blanch to raise their rates for giggles. Basically this is yet another bill that looks like it's appeasing liberals but in reality just pays off corporations.

You think you're paying just 6% on your energy bills? You're dumber than I thought. You'll be paying 6% on EVERYTHING.

Congrats, every working family just got a 6% pay decrease. Well done, Democrats.

You sure as fuck don't mind shoveling your tax dollars into the Military Complex, do you? Personally, I want every dime of mine that went into the highly unneeded F22 back. And every dime that went into the munitions that killed 1 million Iraqis of the last 8 years.

It really doesn't matter, though. The super rich will just trickle down what we need.

Hey retard, I'm against most government spending. Oops, you fucked up again, retard.

 

[piasabird]

Put a carbon tax on cigarettes.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: JKing106
And every dime that went into the munitions that killed 1 million Iraqis of the last 8 years.

Silly liberals lying through their teeth make me laugh. Text The US is responsible for maybe 10,000 Iraqi deaths, which mostly occurred during the military operations against the Iraqi military in 2003. Most of the civilian deaths came at the hands of the "insurgents", not our troops.

 

[ZeGermans]

The total number is around 600k according to the medical journal report, actually. A million is at the very maximum of their confidence limit and is REALLY stretching it. 600k is pretty fucking horrible still.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: ZeGermans
The total number is around 600k according to the medical journal report, actually. A million is at the very maximum of their confidence limit and is REALLY stretching it. 600k is pretty fucking horrible still.

That number isn't Military kills. It's an estimate of total Violent deaths as a result of the War. That includes the various Factions activities.

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: misle

Originally posted by: lupi
Here's what ya need to know.


---- AYES 219 ---

Motherfucker. My Republican Rep voted for it. I emailed him Monday and received a very neutral response so I was afraid he might do this.

Time to write him another email letting him know what a fucking retard he is.

My Democratic rep voted against it. Good for him.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: cubeless
it'll pass the senate...

the amusing thing will be what other shit will be stuffed into it at the last second like the frank amendments in the house... it's party time...

No way it's passing the Senate with that much division among Dem's. BHO will have to start doing some serious asskissing, err, lobbying to get it to pass.

 

[piasabird]

If it passes and prices start going up all the Dems will need to look for a new job.

 

[Marinski]

what the hell is a carbon credit anyways??

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Marinski
what the hell is a carbon credit anyways??

how pollution markets work:

the .gov sets the level of pollution that is permissible in total for the whole country
the .gov makes a set of permits for that pollution
the .gov then auctions off the permits
anyone who has a permit can sell it to anyone else
i assume there is some sort of penalty built in if you go over the amount of pollution you have permits for.


with this the .gov will give a ton of permits to electric generators and pretty much none to oil refiners, which means the oil refiners will have to purchase permits from either whatever auction will be run or from one of the companies being given permits.

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Marinski
what the hell is a carbon credit anyways??

how pollution markets work:

the .gov sets the level of pollution that is permissible in total for the whole country
the .gov makes a set of permits for that pollution
the .gov then auctions off the permits
anyone who has a permit can sell it to anyone else
i assume there is some sort of penalty built in if you go over the amount of pollution you have permits for.


with this the .gov will give a ton of permits to electric generators and pretty much none to oil refiners, which means the oil refiners will have to purchase permits from either whatever auction will be run or from one of the companies being given permits.

Or the refiners will simply shut down some of their plants and import less expensive gasoline and other petroleum products.

 

[Marinski]

so the gov is selling pollution? what ? this whole concept sounds messed up.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: dphantom

Or the refiners will simply shut down some of their plants and import less expensive gasoline and other petroleum products.

if they have this bill done properly the importers will have to purchase permits to account for carbon generation in the manufacture and shipping of their products.

so the gov is selling pollution? what ? this whole concept sounds messed up.

no, the .gov is selling permits to pollute.

 

[brandonbull]

Originally posted by: Marinski
what the hell is a carbon credit anyways??

A scam invented by lobbists to have the government entitle them to large sums of money. Al Gore is loving this.

 

[tk149]

My Representative sucks.

In a report released this week, both the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) found that the bill would speed the adaptation of clean energy technology and create new jobs for roughly the cost of one postage stamp per day per household. The CBO reports says 40% of American households would face almost no cost.

:roll:

Do they really believe what they spew?

 

[BrownTown]

The really important thing to think of whether you believe the science or not is exactly how this affects our economy. What it does is make domestically produced goods much more expensive such that we will now be giving a HUGE advantage to foreign manufacturers. This will result in pretty much the last gasp of industry in this country such that EVERYTHING we use will have to be imported from other countries.

 

[Drako]

Originally posted by: brandonbull

Originally posted by: Marinski
what the hell is a carbon credit anyways??

A scam invented by lobbists to have the government entitle them to large sums of money. Al Gore is loving this.

This - just another false economy.

 

[GeezerMan]

LINK

Good thing Al Gore and Hank Paulson are here to save us.


?Al Gore is chairman and founder of a private equity firm called Generation Investment Management (GIM). According to Gore, the London-based firm invests money from institutions and wealthy investors in companies that are going green. ?Generation Investment Management, purchases ? but isn?t a provider of ? carbon dioxide offsets,? said spokesman Richard Campbell in a March 7 report by CNSNews.

GIM appears to have considerable influence over the major carbon-credit trading firms that currently exist: the Chicago Climate Exchange (CCX) in the U.S. and the Carbon Neutral Company (CNC) in Great Britain. CCX is the only firm in the U.S. that claims to trade carbon credits.

?CCX also has ?participant members? that develop the carbon-offset projects. They have names like Carbon Farmers and Eco-Nomics Incorporated. Still, other participant member groups facilitate, finance and market carbon-offset projects to ?sequester, destroy or displace? greenhouse gases. CCX aspires to be the New York Stock Exchange of carbon-emissions trading.

Along with Gore, the co-founder of GIM is Treasury Secretary and former Goldman Sachs CEO Hank Paulson. Last September, Goldman Sachs bought 10% of CCX shares for $23 million. CCX owns half the ECX, so Goldman Sachs has a stake there as well.

GIM?s ?founding partners? are studded with officials from Goldman Sachs. They include David Blood, former CEO of Goldman Sachs Asset Management (GSAM); Mark Ferguson, former co-head of GSAM pan-European research; and Peter Harris, who headed GSAM international operations. Another founding partner is Peter Knight, who is the designated president of GIM. He was Sen. Al Gore?s chief of staff from 1977-1989 and the campaign manager of the 1996 Clinton-Gore re-election campaign.

 

[Aquila76]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
The really important thing to think of whether you believe the science or not is exactly how this affects our economy. What it does is make domestically produced goods much more expensive such that we will now be giving a HUGE advantage to foreign manufacturers. This will result in pretty much the last gasp of industry in this country such that EVERYTHING we use will have to be imported from other countries.

Yup. With GM & Chrysler all but gone and Ford leasing their buildings from other companies, there will soon be no more manufacturing in the US. Startup companies won't want to build anything here due to the excessive government taxation (and just wait until mandatory healthcare hits nationwide; it's going great here in MA!). As soon as the other countries realize we are critically dependent on them for survival, we are screwed.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Aquila76

Originally posted by: BrownTown
The really important thing to think of whether you believe the science or not is exactly how this affects our economy. What it does is make domestically produced goods much more expensive such that we will now be giving a HUGE advantage to foreign manufacturers. This will result in pretty much the last gasp of industry in this country such that EVERYTHING we use will have to be imported from other countries.

Yup. With GM & Chrysler all but gone and Ford leasing their buildings from other companies, there will soon be no more manufacturing in the US. Startup companies won't want to build anything here due to the excessive government taxation (and just wait until mandatory healthcare hits nationwide; it's going great here in MA!). As soon as the other countries realize we are critically dependent on them for survival, we are screwed.

Incorrect. As stated earlier, Manufacturing has been leaving for many reasons not related to this at all, specifically Wages.