Cap and Trade

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,458
987
126
They vote today and as of midnight they were well shy of the votes needed to pass the bill in the House.

In my opinion Carbon Credits are a HUGE scam. Global warming isn't but the credit are. And to have a government program based on them is idiotic at best.

If somehow the Bill passes today, there are serious doubts it'll pass the Senate in September.

And finally, while the democrats and Obama are doing everything they can to say they are not raising taxes on the middle class. They sure are raising costs left and right and appear to be on the road to continue doing the same over the next 9 months.

 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,458
987
126
And one final thing, the democrats are being shady again. Apparently, they only released the last 400 pages of the ~1200 page bill in the last 12 hours or so.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Agree about carbon credits, a big fvcking joke. Buffet (people worship him so I might as well join in) said that this is equivalent to a substantial tax increase and thinks it's poor timing.
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
3,434
1
0
Cap and Tax is a more accurate name for this monstrosity.

This is a suicide note for our economy. Do you think that China and India are following these type of draconian policies? No way, they're doing what we USED to do in order to grow and strengthen their economy.

This is madness...all because of the myth called "global warming", even though we've been cooling for years...
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Remember who votes for this crap and make sure they are voted out of office. That includes the executive branch and the great Bastard.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
85
91
Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Cap and Tax is a more accurate name for this monstrosity.

This is a suicide note for our economy. Do you think that China and India are following these type of draconian policies? No way, they're doing what we USED to do in order to grow and strengthen their economy.

This is madness...all because of the myth called "global warming", even though we've been cooling for years...

I am starting to believe in Global warming. I mean hell.... look at Al Gores personal wealth before he went on this crusade. He was probably worth around $10 million. Now he is worth $100's of millions. Global warming has been good to Al so I am becoming a global warming advocate as well to get my piece of the pie.
 

Rockinacoustic

Platinum Member
Aug 19, 2006
2,460
0
76
WSJ ran a good article about it's possible implications: Link

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has put cap-and-trade legislation on a forced march through the House, and the bill may get a full vote as early as Friday. It looks as if the Democrats will have to destroy the discipline of economics to get it done.

Despite House Energy and Commerce Chairman Henry Waxman's many payoffs to Members, rural and Blue Dog Democrats remain wary of voting for a bill that will impose crushing costs on their home-district businesses and consumers. The leadership's solution to this problem is to simply claim the bill defies the laws of economics.

Their gambit got a boost this week, when the Congressional Budget Office did an analysis of what has come to be known as the Waxman-Markey bill. According to the CBO, the climate legislation would cost the average household only $175 a year by 2020. Edward Markey, Mr. Waxman's co-author, instantly set to crowing that the cost of upending the entire energy economy would be no more than a postage stamp a day for the average household. Amazing. A closer look at the CBO analysis finds that it contains so many caveats as to render it useless.

For starters, the CBO estimate is a one-year snapshot of taxes that will extend to infinity. Under a cap-and-trade system, government sets a cap on the total amount of carbon that can be emitted nationally; companies then buy or sell permits to emit CO2. The cap gets cranked down over time to reduce total carbon emissions.

To get support for his bill, Mr. Waxman was forced to water down the cap in early years to please rural Democrats, and then severely ratchet it up in later years to please liberal Democrats. The CBO's analysis looks solely at the year 2020, before most of the tough restrictions kick in. As the cap is tightened and companies are stripped of initial opportunities to "offset" their emissions, the price of permits will skyrocket beyond the CBO estimate of $28 per ton of carbon. The corporate costs of buying these expensive permits will be passed to consumers.

The biggest doozy in the CBO analysis was its extraordinary decision to look only at the day-to-day costs of operating a trading program, rather than the wider consequences energy restriction would have on the economy. The CBO acknowledges this in a footnote: "The resource cost does not indicate the potential decrease in gross domestic product (GDP) that could result from the cap."

The hit to GDP is the real threat in this bill. The whole point of cap and trade is to hike the price of electricity and gas so that Americans will use less. These higher prices will show up not just in electricity bills or at the gas station but in every manufactured good, from food to cars. Consumers will cut back on spending, which in turn will cut back on production, which results in fewer jobs created or higher unemployment. Some companies will instead move their operations overseas, with the same result.

When the Heritage Foundation did its analysis of Waxman-Markey, it broadly compared the economy with and without the carbon tax. Under this more comprehensive scenario, it found Waxman-Markey would cost the economy $161 billion in 2020, which is $1,870 for a family of four. As the bill's restrictions kick in, that number rises to $6,800 for a family of four by 2035.

Note also that the CBO analysis is an average for the country as a whole. It doesn't take into account the fact that certain regions and populations will be more severely hit than others -- manufacturing states more than service states; coal producing states more than states that rely on hydro or natural gas. Low-income Americans, who devote more of their disposable income to energy, have more to lose than high-income families.

Even as Democrats have promised that this cap-and-trade legislation won't pinch wallets, behind the scenes they've acknowledged the energy price tsunami that is coming. During the brief few days in which the bill was debated in the House Energy Committee, Republicans offered three amendments: one to suspend the program if gas hit $5 a gallon; one to suspend the program if electricity prices rose 10% over 2009; and one to suspend the program if unemployment rates hit 15%. Democrats defeated all of them.

The reality is that cost estimates for climate legislation are as unreliable as the models predicting climate change. What comes out of the computer is a function of what politicians type in. A better indicator might be what other countries are already experiencing. Britain's Taxpayer Alliance estimates the average family there is paying nearly $1,300 a year in green taxes for carbon-cutting programs in effect only a few years.

Americans should know that those Members who vote for this climate bill are voting for what is likely to be the biggest tax in American history. Even Democrats can't repeal that reality.

I think the Republican amendment proposals were sound considering the last thing we need now is tax increases. If we want to create alternative energy solutions we shouldn't hinder the companies and consumers who drive the research and advancements.
 

Drako

Lifer
Jun 9, 2007
10,706
161
106
I just can't believe that this is going to pass through Congress.

You'd think that the politicians would understand how this is going to fuck over most of their constituents. Damn common sense to hell!

 

dyna

Senior member
Oct 20, 2006
813
61
91
Strangely, it seems to be a regressive tax. Which is normally what democrats try to avoid because it effects their voting base.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,381
96
86
If there was any doubts that the Dems only cared about money and power as opposed to helping the poor, this sealed the deal.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
What a sad lot you are, be sure to thank your local coal company for filling your heads with misinformation.

Feel free to stop by my office for tissues and tea at 3:00pm EST.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
Originally posted by: dyna
Strangely, it seems to be a regressive tax. Which is normally what democrats try to avoid because it effects their voting base.

You mean like taxing tobacco? :D
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
The only good thing about this is that it appears the votes to pass it are lacking.
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
look on the bright side, this will hold down the economy enough to keep inflation under control...
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: bamacre
More use of fear to take away freedoms. What's new?

Well we can't have our thermostats at 72 degrees and drive anymore. Those days are over. Didn't you get the obamamemo?
 

imported_inspire

Senior member
Jun 29, 2006
986
0
0
Originally posted by: ayabe
What a sad lot you are, be sure to thank your local coal company for filling your heads with misinformation.

Feel free to stop by my office for tissues and tea at 3:00pm EST.

East coast is on Daylight time right now. The coal company told me so.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,414
8,356
126
so does this include taxes on the manufacturing and shipping of goods from other countries into the US?
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,458
987
126
Originally posted by: cubeless
passed the house...

just remember, it's not a tax...

Hasnt passed the house yet. It has been passed to move to the house floor to vote.

30 Moderate Dems abstained from that vote it was like 217 to 205. The need 1/3 of those than abstained to get the measure to pass. They may or may not have it.
 

Beattie

Golden Member
Sep 6, 2001
1,774
0
0
Originally posted by: ElFenix
so does this include taxes on the manufacturing and shipping of goods from other countries into the US?

Yea, I believe there is some kind of a carbon import tariff thing in the waxman-markey bill.