Can we stop the nonsense?

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: freegeeks

the difference is that I (me personally) never started these threads. Dari and Galt make it a sport to start threads to bash the French just like a lot of people start threads to bash on Bush. I just respond in the French bash threads like you respond in the Anti-Bush threads.

OK, let's take a look at the number of threads started by each. Yes, Galt may have went overboard with 3 threads on the general subject matter in 24 hours. In each thread, however, he at least presents an argument. But what is the typical response from those who are on the other side of the spectrum? Flames. On the other hand, do a search for threads Dari has started. I couldn't find one that HE started which bashed the French, although he participated in like-minded threads.

The point is this: Why is OK to post "WTF, Bush is a Moron" or "Isn't Bush the Anti-Christ and shouldn't you be ashamed?" or "Bush Regime attempts & fails to plant WMDs in Iraq (2 sources)" but it isn't OK to post material criticizing the Chirac/French administration? If one looks at proverbial 'cause and effect' relative to both sides (the French and American leadership), both administrations are at fault and worthy of discussion. There was a discussion in OT about the heat wave in France that remained civil.

Some time ago I started a thread about healthcare and as usual is ended in a flamefest - the difference between myself and others that I flame BOTH ends of the spectrum, in that particular thread I flamed that french Guydebordu troll but also people like Dari, Alistair7 etc... I don't see you reacting against someone who started a French bash thread. You keep quiet or you join the flamefest.

Well, to begin with, I consider myself a bit more moderate nowadays than I was even one year ago. If there is a discussion which I cannot debate with good inner conviction, then I leave it alone. Nevertheless, you'll usually see me in threads mainly about the military or when the poster engages in obvious propaganda.

I remember the thread when you flamed Guy. And you were correct in doing so.

Please do a search on the threads I started.
Most stuf I start is something like "crazy mofo flies over channel with carbonfiber wing strapped to its back"

Agreed. You and I both usually stay away from starting 'confrontational' threads.

what bothers me about this discussion is that some people in this thread with their holier then everything attitude are actually the people who start the flame-threads

Actually, the moderators here give everyone a certain degree of latitude. I think if we police ourselves from within, we will have better results and less name-calling. The key is for everyone to abide by a code amongst themselves.

Unfortunately, a divide has developed between two camps here. One camp posts hundreds of "Bush is a Moron", "Asscroft Sucks", "Cheney is a dirty, rich thief", "Israelis are murderers" type of confrontational proclamations which, in many cases, are little more than thinly veiled rhetoric intended to start flames and name calling. So, after a while of witnessing the daily incessant provacative criticism of conservatism, the other camp jumps on an opportunity to bash the French for their publicized shortcomings. Can anyone really blame them?

In the end I don't care about the flaming, I have a thick skin and couldn't care less. It's a frigging internetforum - it's not real life --

[edit] being a lazy european evil commie treehugger, I only post from work - flaming someone and being paid for it = heaven

To tell you the truth, I don't care about flaming either. Usenet newsgroups have much more flaming than found here. However, newsgroups also have fifty times the amount of namecalling. If we police ourselves then there might be less flaming. In otherwords, we have a certain amount of latitude. The content of the P&N forum is what we make it.

Yeah, I get paid for posting from work too.

 

[Insane3D]

You make some valid points, however, IMO it does us no good to sit around and point the finger at X posted this, or y started this thread, etc. It would do us more good to just concentrate on how we can improve things from where they are now, than rehashing the past over and over.

Again..IMO.

 

[shuan24]

Heres my .02:

From now on, whenever I witness flaming, I will make a huge flaming distraction, so people who see it will know theres flaming.

:disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust:

Also, I will either: a. ignore, b. distract again, c. engage and destroy. :beer:

If everyone does that, then maybe there will be enough distraction to actually end the temporary flaming!

 

[etech]

I must disagree to a point Insane. We must know how we got into this situation or we may fall into it again. burnedout makes a very valid point that it is more than just flaming it is also threads that were started apparently not for discussion but to start flame fests and they usually suceeded.


I have more to say but I am at work and do not get paid for posting.

 

[Insane3D]

Originally posted by: etech
I must disagree to a point Insane. We must know how we got into this situation or we may fall into it again. burnedout makes a very valid point that it is more than just flaming it is also threads that were started apparently not for discussion but to start flame fests and they usually suceeded.


I have more to say but I am at work and do not get paid for posting.

I agree, which is why I said he had valid points. I was just trying to stop this thread from becoming one big blame game thread as that will not serve to improve the situation.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Insane3D

Originally posted by: etech
I must disagree to a point Insane. We must know how we got into this situation or we may fall into it again. burnedout makes a very valid point that it is more than just flaming it is also threads that were started apparently not for discussion but to start flame fests and they usually suceeded.


I have more to say but I am at work and do not get paid for posting.

I agree, which is why I said he had valid points. I was just trying to stop this thread from becoming one big blame game thread as that will not serve to improve the situation.

Yes, This thread isn't for the blame game or anything like that. No one needs to defend their posting style or habits or blame it on things/people. As moonbeam's mirror said "The problem is everybody else's fault, not mine." Everyone needs to be responsible for thier own actions/posts.

Are their any other workable ideas for helping to stem the amout of flaming/namecalling? Or is "ingnore them" going to work?

CkG

 

[shuan24]

Originally posted by: shuan24
Heres my .02:

From now on, whenever I witness flaming, I will make a huge flaming distraction, so people who see it will know theres flaming.

:disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust::disgust:

Also, I will either: a. ignore, b. distract again, c. engage and destroy. :beer:

If everyone does that, then maybe there will be enough distraction to actually end the temporary flaming!

 

[BOBDN]

I'll stop flaming and stay on point if everyone else will.

But I won't sit by and let people attack me and my family (who don't even frequent these forums contrary to the
opinion expressed by some) without retaliating.

I didn't start flaming them, they started flaming me.

They stop flaming I'll stop retaliating. Simple.

PS

I never run to the mods but it's obvious someone else is as posted in the now locked thread on Iraqi spies.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: BOBDN
I'll stop flaming and stay on point if everyone else will.

But I won't sit by and let people attack me and my family (who don't even frequent these forums contrary to the
opinion expressed by some) without retaliating.

I didn't start flaming them, they started flaming me.

They stop flaming I'll stop retaliating. Simple.

PS

I never run to the mods but it's obvious someone else is as posted in the now locked thread on Iraqi spies.

That is the point of this thread For everyone to stop so no retailation type attacks have a chance at happening. What we need is a cease-fire. I liken our "problem" to the Irael vs Palestinian fight. They never call a true truce and follow through with it. They always blame the other side for doing it first when retaliating. This post wasn't to berate or accuse - only to inform
If people would all just step back - take a deep breath - then continue the discussion of the topic we'd be better off in regards to the flaming/name-calling.

CkG

 

[phillyTIM]

Some people are taking this forum much too seriously; it's not like a job where our postings are judged or rated or such.

Getting & worrying about people posting the right way is going to cause much more stress than just ignoring a bunch of their ramblings. I think the root of the problem is that everyone just wants to have the last word, this is a timeless problem that affects everywhere.

Heated debates that waste time seem like they are going to be par for the course now. ugh.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Insane3D

Originally posted by: etech
I must disagree to a point Insane. We must know how we got into this situation or we may fall into it again. burnedout makes a very valid point that it is more than just flaming it is also threads that were started apparently not for discussion but to start flame fests and they usually suceeded.


I have more to say but I am at work and do not get paid for posting.

I agree, which is why I said he had valid points. I was just trying to stop this thread from becoming one big blame game thread as that will not serve to improve the situation.

Yes, This thread isn't for the blame game or anything like that. No one needs to defend their posting style or habits or blame it on things/people. As moonbeam's mirror said "The problem is everybody else's fault, not mine." Everyone needs to be responsible for thier own actions/posts.

Are their any other workable ideas for helping to stem the amout of flaming/namecalling? Or is "ingnore them" going to work?

CkG

I believe there is. The answer in my opinion is self knowledge. We flame others because we think we are right and they are wrong and deserve to be put down. But knowledge says something else to me. We call others that which we feel is true of us. It comes from our hidden self hate. What we see is a projection of our inner content. Seeing how deeply you hate others is how deeply you hate yourself changes the would. The enemy switches from out there to inside. How willingly one is able to see that is how willing and seriously one is willing to solve this problem. As long as we see the problem is out there, as long as we remain unconscious of the origins of our hate, that is how long the problem will be the other guy and how long he deserves to be flamed.

The problem with knowledge is that it can't be acquired scientifically or by the accumulation of more information. The acquisition of knowledge is the dying of self. Truth hurts, but it only hurts what was unreal anyway. We have built a huge fortress to defend a ghost.

 

[Dari]

Yes, enough with all the insults. Let's all have rational conversations without throwing mud.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I believe there is. The answer in my opinion is self knowledge. We flame others because we think we are right and they are wrong and deserve to be put down. But knowledge says something else to me. We call others that which we feel is true of us. It comes from our hidden self hate. What we see is a projection of our inner content. Seeing how deeply you hate others is how deeply you hate yourself changes the would. The enemy switches from out there to inside. How willingly one is able to see that is how willing and seriously one is willing to solve this problem. As long as we see the problem is out there, as long as we remain unconscious of the origins of our hate, that is how long the problem will be the other guy and how long he deserves to be flamed.

The problem with knowledge is that it can't be acquired scientifically or by the accumulation of more information. The acquisition of knowledge is the dying of self. Truth hurts, but it only hurts what was unreal anyway. We have built a huge fortress to defend a ghost.

So how do we make this workable? People don't take kindly to looking at themselves as the problem. I know acceptance is the first step and that it can't be forced, but in absence of that - can we attain some sort of respectability?

CkG

 

[LunarRay]

My two cents worth:

I request that Etech, UQ, CAD, BobDN each draft a resolution containing the theme and specifics of non flame warfare. Then I suggest a committee of some of the 'elder statesmen' like Winston, Moonbeam and others nominated by you all take these resolutions and refine them and post them on a thread and each person who wish to subscribe to them so indicates.
Once agreed any breach will result in all other members ignoring the poster after one warning via PM from someone that this is in violation... ignoring a poster eventually will work.
I've not been here long enough to be involved in the drafting nor the committee but, believe this is the solution.. I it is done and you don't agree well the majority in place, with the MOD's approval carries the day. New members must read and agree or be ignored... although if they are thick like me a friendly tap on the shoulder should work. If someone persists to post in a "child ego rage" then upon notification by a committee member to the MOD, further remedial action may be taken at the MOD's discretion.

I edit to add.. there would be one final resolution containing the best language of the drafts which would be posted.

 

[freegeeks]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
My two cents worth:

I request that Etech, UQ, CAD, BobDN each draft a resolution containing the theme and specifics of non flame warfare. Then I suggest a committee of some of the 'elder statesmen' like Winston, Moonbeam and others nominated by you all take these resolutions and refine them and post them on a thread and each person who wish to subscribe to them so indicates.
Once agreed any breach will result in all other members ignoring the poster after one warning via PM from someone that this is in violation... ignoring a poster eventually will work.
I've not been here long enough to be involved in the drafting nor the committee but, believe this is the solution.. I it is done and you don't agree well the majority in place, with the MOD's approval carries the day. New members must read and agree or be ignored... although if they are thick like me a friendly tap on the shoulder should work. If someone persists to post in a "child ego rage" then upon notification by a committee member to the MOD, further remedial action may be taken at the MOD's discretion.

you are joking right


these kind of agreements are unworkable

 

[BOBDN]

I have little experience drafting resolutions but I think your idea has merit.

I'll give it a go. But I would suggest expanding the number of contributors.

Thanks LunarRay. I've always found you to be a voice of reason.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I believe there is. The answer in my opinion is self knowledge. We flame others because we think we are right and they are wrong and deserve to be put down. But knowledge says something else to me. We call others that which we feel is true of us. It comes from our hidden self hate. What we see is a projection of our inner content. Seeing how deeply you hate others is how deeply you hate yourself changes the would. The enemy switches from out there to inside. How willingly one is able to see that is how willing and seriously one is willing to solve this problem. As long as we see the problem is out there, as long as we remain unconscious of the origins of our hate, that is how long the problem will be the other guy and how long he deserves to be flamed.

The problem with knowledge is that it can't be acquired scientifically or by the accumulation of more information. The acquisition of knowledge is the dying of self. Truth hurts, but it only hurts what was unreal anyway. We have built a huge fortress to defend a ghost.

So how do we make this workable? People don't take kindly to looking at themselves as the problem. I know acceptance is the first step and that it can't be forced, but in absence of that - can we attain some sort of respectability?

CkG

Don't let moonbeam fool you with that mumbo-jumbo. I think he makes stuff up as he goes along. He has no foundation of what he's saying. It all just sounds good. His protrayal of all that is wrong on one entity, conservatism, is evidence of that. Moonbeam refuses to look at all aspects of human nature or the human psyche. Hell, his false interpretition of a particular statement,action, or event could get the ball rolling to a wrong diagnosis, there by leading to a wrong prescription.

 

[mastertech01]

Originally posted by: BOBDN
I'll stop flaming and stay on point if everyone else will.

But I won't sit by and let people attack me and my family (who don't even frequent these forums contrary to the
opinion expressed by some) without retaliating.

I didn't start flaming them, they started flaming me.

They stop flaming I'll stop retaliating. Simple.

PS

I never run to the mods but it's obvious someone else is as posted in the now locked thread on Iraqi spies.

That is plain an simply untrue. Ive seen you insult anyone who disagrees with you or your sources and whom have never attacked you or your family.

 

[freegeeks]

we can setup something like the UN security council

I'm the French veto

 

[Fencer128]

* fingers crossed *

If something like this works, maybe it will rekindle my interest in posting. This forum has been degenerating for a while now and it'd be nice for everyone to pull their socks up.

Good luck,

Andy

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: LunarRay
My two cents worth:

I request that Etech, UQ, CAD, BobDN each draft a resolution containing the theme and specifics of non flame warfare. Then I suggest a committee of some of the 'elder statesmen' like Winston, Moonbeam and others nominated by you all take these resolutions and refine them and post them on a thread and each person who wish to subscribe to them so indicates.
Once agreed any breach will result in all other members ignoring the poster after one warning via PM from someone that this is in violation... ignoring a poster eventually will work.
I've not been here long enough to be involved in the drafting nor the committee but, believe this is the solution.. I it is done and you don't agree well the majority in place, with the MOD's approval carries the day. New members must read and agree or be ignored... although if they are thick like me a friendly tap on the shoulder should work. If someone persists to post in a "child ego rage" then upon notification by a committee member to the MOD, further remedial action may be taken at the MOD's discretion.

you are joking right


these kind of agreements are unworkable

Anything we wish to abide by is workable, failing a concrete agreed scenario the forum will simply die.
You are the catalyst to agreement. Each of us are and I know BOB, Etech, UQ and the 'elder statesmen' are able to draft and distill a workable solution. If it came to pass and you dissented well.. it is a forum of members who are mostly adults capable of policing ourselves and others. Majority rules by and with the blessing of the MOD's will make it work. Flame and be ignored! It is called the "Silence" and it works... think about it.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: burnedout

Originally posted by: freegeeks

the difference is that I (me personally) never started these threads. Dari and Galt make it a sport to start threads to bash the French just like a lot of people start threads to bash on Bush. I just respond in the French bash threads like you respond in the Anti-Bush threads.

OK, let's take a look at the number of threads started by each. Yes, Galt may have went overboard with 3 threads on the general subject matter in 24 hours. In each thread, however, he at least presents an argument. But what is the typical response from those who are on the other side of the spectrum? Flames. On the other hand, do a search for threads Dari has started. I couldn't find one that HE started which bashed the French, although he participated in like-minded threads.

The point is this: Why is OK to post "WTF, Bush is a Moron" or "Isn't Bush the Anti-Christ and shouldn't you be ashamed?" or "Bush Regime attempts & fails to plant WMDs in Iraq (2 sources)" but it isn't OK to post material criticizing the Chirac/French administration? If one looks at proverbial 'cause and effect' relative to both sides (the French and American leadership), both administrations are at fault and worthy of discussion. There was a discussion in OT about the heat wave in France that remained civil.

Some time ago I started a thread about healthcare and as usual is ended in a flamefest - the difference between myself and others that I flame BOTH ends of the spectrum, in that particular thread I flamed that french Guydebordu troll but also people like Dari, Alistair7 etc... I don't see you reacting against someone who started a French bash thread. You keep quiet or you join the flamefest.

Well, to begin with, I consider myself a bit more moderate nowadays than I was even one year ago. If there is a discussion which I cannot debate with good inner conviction, then I leave it alone. Nevertheless, you'll usually see me in threads mainly about the military or when the poster engages in obvious propaganda.

I remember the thread when you flamed Guy. And you were correct in doing so.

Please do a search on the threads I started.
Most stuf I start is something like "crazy mofo flies over channel with carbonfiber wing strapped to its back"

Agreed. You and I both usually stay away from starting 'confrontational' threads.

what bothers me about this discussion is that some people in this thread with their holier then everything attitude are actually the people who start the flame-threads

Actually, the moderators here give everyone a certain degree of latitude. I think if we police ourselves from within, we will have better results and less name-calling. The key is for everyone to abide by a code amongst themselves.

Unfortunately, a divide has developed between two camps here. One camp posts hundreds of "Bush is a Moron", "Asscroft Sucks", "Cheney is a dirty, rich thief", "Israelis are murderers" type of confrontational proclamations which, in many cases, are little more than thinly veiled rhetoric intended to start flames and name calling. So, after a while of witnessing the daily incessant provacative criticism of conservatism, the other camp jumps on an opportunity to bash the French for their publicized shortcomings. Can anyone really blame them?

In the end I don't care about the flaming, I have a thick skin and couldn't care less. It's a frigging internetforum - it's not real life --

[edit] being a lazy european evil commie treehugger, I only post from work - flaming someone and being paid for it = heaven

To tell you the truth, I don't care about flaming either. Usenet newsgroups have much more flaming than found here. However, newsgroups also have fifty times the amount of namecalling. If we police ourselves then there might be less flaming. In otherwords, we have a certain amount of latitude. The content of the P&N forum is what we make it.

Yeah, I get paid for posting from work too.

All good posts about this people.

It is obviously the same few people that do both the starting of the Nonsense bashing Bush, Cheney, French etc and also guilty of the flaming in legitimate threads as well.

Just can't let the few sour apples spoil the whole tree.
Every Orchard produces some Sour Apples and some people like Sour Apples.
If you don't like Sour Apples don't eat them.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: BOBDN
I have little experience drafting resolutions but I think your idea has merit.

I'll give it a go. But I would suggest expanding the number of contributors.

Thanks LunarRay. I've always found you to be a voice of reason.

Bob, I propose it is for the folks herein to dispose..
I suggested just four because these four folks have "mucho savy" they are a blend and I did not choose the names without consideration. But, again... The Committee is the key... Elders of the forum make the final choice and in PM with each other. There is a method to my madness.. I would expect Drafters could also be on the committee... by nomination and vote... of the current visitors to this forum.

I propose only..

 

[povertystruck]

This idea is pure fantasy. If I say something bad to someone else on these forums and am ignored. I could easily make a new name and attack once more. Sorry to burst anyones bubble.

The mods would have to be involved, block an "ip" perhaps. However i dont think this work for me and others, whenever i am banned from a game server i restart computer and can join once again( I think my ip changes after every restart, i have adsl).

 

[povertystruck]

This idea is pure fantasy. If I say something bad to someone else on these forums and am ignored. I could easily make a new name and attack once more. Sorry to burst anyones bubble.

The mods would have to be involved, block an "ip" perhaps. However i dont think this work for me and others, whenever i am banned from a game server i restart computer and can join once again( I think my ip changes after every restart, i have adsl).