Can we ever remake public schools to get costs under control and better results?

[DominionSeraph]

Nice attempt at fabricating on overly complex excuse for your failure of basic language skills, buffoon.

you may fool yourself if you wish. The integrity of your mental structure is of very little concern to me.

And your perception of that as "complex" does not speak well of your mental abilities. Using roots is a pretty common practice, and it's quite straightforward.

 

[BoberFett]

Your failure to understand my use of the word complex to describe your excuse and not your thought process is yet another strike against you, buffoon.

You're an amusing troll, I'll give you that.

 

[MovingTarget]

The bottom line is that education can't be guaranteed. We need to make the best use of our money. Why are we spending so much money on our worst students when we should be investing it in our top 10-20%? Kick the bottom 25% out of school and spend that money on the smartest. That will make our country stronger and more competitive.

I take some issue with this. The problem isn't stupid kids, but kids that do not want to learn. Kick those out. It is a much better use of a teacher's time to teach a kid who is slow and has a thirst for knowledge than a smart little sh*t who would rather goof off and disrupt others' learning. Those who WANT to learn should have the chance. Those who don't - well, life is full of choices.

 

[spacejamz]

wonder how much is spent in education costs for children of illegal aliens...extra tax dollars that could be spent on the children of legal citizens that are being used for bilingual teachers, non-English text books, school meals, etc...

not that this will fix the problem, but from a monetary standpoint, it would be a great place to start...

now waits to be called a racist....

 

[Exterous]

The real issue here is Decadence, over stimulation, and everybody trying to scratch their way to the Top in a Society where getting to the Top is becoming increasingly(even despite the recent Economic troubles)difficult. This is why Materialism and Massive Debt is rampant from the very bottom to the very top of Society, everyone is living the Dream even if that Dream is beyond their means.

I agree. The 'Quest for the American Dream' has become 'I demand/expect my American Dream'

 

[Zorkorist]

I can tell you we have the exact same situation in Denmark, but our education system is even more expensive than yours, and we do worse in the PISA test.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/education/07education.html

I've been working as a teacher at a private school for 3 years now. I'm a M.Sc. in microbiology, so I haven't had a teachers education. The school I work at, is a school where our approach is more academic oriented than the average public school. So 80-90% of our students wants to learn and work really hard at it. This doesn't mean you have to be a gifted to attend the school, just that you're willing to what you can to improve and learn.
There are several problems with the education systems today.

1. Teachers are often not the top students of a class, because the teachers aren't respected any more and the salary is pretty low, and thus the quality of teaching diminish.
2. Since the parents have no respect for the teacher, neither will the children, and that allows for noisy children making teaching pretty hard.
3. To many politicians, parents etc. think they know how to do the best teaching. No-one listens to those who have actually taken an education in teaching.

Thank you for your input biostud.

I do think it boils down to a matter of respect. It doesn't matter if the teachers are "top students," but rather that they are the teachers.

The lack of respect today for teachers is horrendous. These are men and women that are taking on the job of educating your children and your children will spend eight hours a day in their presence. They should be afforded every respect imagineable.

-John

 

[drebo]

I take some issue with this. The problem isn't stupid kids, but kids that do not want to learn. Kick those out. It is a much better use of a teacher's time to teach a kid who is slow and has a thirst for knowledge than a smart little sh*t who would rather goof off and disrupt others' learning. Those who WANT to learn should have the chance. Those who don't - well, life is full of choices.

Better solution: put the smart kid in a class with other smart kids and challenge him with work at a level that won't give him TIME to goof off.

 

[Zorkorist]

They do this now. It is called AP classes.

It's the culture of everyday students that is out of control, and will not respect their teachers, etc.

-John

 

[GTaudiophile]

Michelle Rhee tried and was having success...until the Union backed someone else for mayor of DC.

 

[bfdd]

They do this now. It is called AP classes.

It's a culture of everyday students, that are out of control, and will not respect their teachers, etc.

-John

I already explained that Zork. It has less to do with the students and more to do with the system itself. The system wouldn't allow it if it wasn't publicly funded. Kids would be thrown out and not educated if the system was private. The fact that the government runs the schools and isn't allowed to use any sort of punishment on students out of fear of parental backlash is lol. In order for our educational system to function correctly we need to make very big systemic changes to our public school system which would piss off "conservatives" and "liberals" alike. To bad they're both groups of morons who have never heard of compromise.

 

[Zorkorist]

It's rather a simple thing... to show respect for your teacher, and sit in class patiently until it is over.

Whether you learn from it, is another thing, and probably that which differentiates good teachers from bad, but it is simple respect to, be a student.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

I already explained that Zork. It has less to do with the students and more to do with the system itself. The system wouldn't allow it if it wasn't publicly funded. Kids would be thrown out and not educated if the system was private. The fact that the government runs the schools and isn't allowed to use any sort of punishment on students out of fear of parental backlash is lol. In order for our educational system to function correctly we need to make very big systemic changes to our public school system which would piss off "conservatives" and "liberals" alike. To bad they're both groups of morons who have never heard of compromise.

See my above post.

I honestly don't think it is hard to demand respect out of students for their teachers.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

There's nothing political, or Government versus Private Education about it.

Someone said that kids are good at "testing boundaries." Well, a classroom setting is not a boundary that they will win at. A classroom is exactly that, a classroom.

-John

 

[JS80]

The school system today exists to enrich the administrators and the unions that are part of the system, and to benefit the politicians who will get their support. They don't give a shit about some stupid ass spoiled brat.

 

[Zorkorist]

It's whole classrooms that disrespect their teacher, not just one kid.

One kid can be disciplined in any environment.

When the whole classroom can do it, then it is cultural, and epidemic.

-John

 

[MovingTarget]

Better solution: put the smart kid in a class with other smart kids and challenge him with work at a level that won't give him TIME to goof off.

We already do this with AP classes. Even the smart kids will make time to goof off no matter how much work they have to do. I was in advanced/AP/honors classes in high school and noticed this firsthand. (also, nowadays in the classes I teach) Busywork isn't the answer for the more intelligent students. Inquiry-based learning is. Unfortunately most teachers are not properly trained in this, cirriculae are not updated to include it, and it is also expensive to implement in its most effective form.

That doesn't mean that the kid that isn't as smart is not deserving of a quality education. Every student should be challenged, not just the smart ones. As long as you do want to learn and are willing to work, the student should remain in school.

 

[MovingTarget]

I already explained that Zork. It has less to do with the students and more to do with the system itself. The system wouldn't allow it if it wasn't publicly funded. Kids would be thrown out and not educated if the system was private. The fact that the government runs the schools and isn't allowed to use any sort of punishment on students out of fear of parental backlash is lol. In order for our educational system to function correctly we need to make very big systemic changes to our public school system which would piss off "conservatives" and "liberals" alike. To bad they're both groups of morons who have never heard of compromise.

This. If I were teaching in a public school, we could not kick out continually disruptive students. Teachers I do know in the public system have to walk on eggshells daily based on which parents they know will raise a stink if their little "angel" does something dumb. I'm surprised they don't have more premature coronaries dealing with some of the little terrors. Consequences matter. Remove them and you have what exists today in public systems. It isn't a matter of public vs. private if the public systems were allowed to institute real consequences for misbehavior.

 

[Zorkorist]

What punishments do ya'll have available?

I was sent to the office, more than once. I was suspended once.

Ya'll are asking for expulsion?

Seems to me like you have plenty of punishments available.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

What you don't have is basic respect.

-John

 

[MovingTarget]

What punishments do ya'll have available?

I was sent to the office, more than once. I was suspended once.

Ya'll are asking for expulsion?

Seems to me like you have plenty of punishments available.

-John

Being sent to the office, detention, saturday morning detention, in-school and out of school suspensions, additional behavioral probation, expulsion are all available. Anything above detention often involves multiple administrators though, which by extension gets politics (local, legal, etc.) involved. For the truly disruptive students, not even expulsion is a real deterrent. So, they have to get written up, sent to the office multiple times, serve multiple detentions, maybe get suspended a few times, then expulsion. By that time, the learning environment has gone way downhill. Sometimes expulsion is necessary.

 

[Zorkorist]

I'm sure it is...

But the fact is you have many punishments available.

So, don't cry about a lack of punishments.

-John

 

[MovingTarget]

I'm sure it is...

But the fact is you have many punishments available.

So, don't cry about a lack of punishments.

-John

We do have plenty of punishments. The problem is that administrators don't back up their teachers in a lot of cases in the public systems. I am not personally whining as I do not teach in the public system. We recently have revamped our discipline system and have been having significant improvement in our learning environment. The public systems, however, still have those problems. They can't kick out those kids who really need to be kicked out unless they really do something illegal/scandalous.

 

[Zorkorist]

Fine,

But I don't think you are getting my point, that kids today don't respect their teachers. They start to pack their school bags minutes before the bell rings. They disrupt the class for those last few minutes, and the teacher is barely to be heard over the kids packing their bags.

It's not one or two students that disrupt a class, it's the entire class.

-John

 

[MovingTarget]

Fine,

But I don't think you are getting my point, that kids today don't respect their teachers. They start to pack their school bags minutes before the bell rings. They disrupt the class for those last few minutes, and the teacher is barely to be heard over the kids packing their bags.

It's not one or two students that disrupt a class, it's the entire class.

-John

I get your point, and in fact I largely agree with it. Oftentimes, it is the whole class as you describe. However, I have seen examples where this isn't the case. They are unfortunately in the minority today. Perhaps I am a little more optimistic about it.

 

[Zorkorist]

It's just unacceptable to pack your bag, and disregard the teacher, when you know the bell will ring shortly.

Every one of my students would receive an F, on that first day, if they disrespected me like that.

They can ignore me the rest of the semester.

When/if kids are concerned, I would run tests at 1 minute before the period ends.

-John