Can we ever remake public schools to get costs under control and better results?

[biostud]

sometimes I wish I could use this to pacify the students:

 

[MotF Bane]

My method of reconstruction does result in some artifacts. "Sur," in French meaning, "on," leads me to translate "surname" to be the name on top of the base family name.
The rate of artifact occurrence in compression to/decompression from root is acceptable given its multiplicative effect on vocabulary size.

Your apparent eagerness to jump onto a such a minor thing does bring your confidence level into question. Perhaps you have figured that if you can shift your perception of my intelligence downward that the reduction in contrast with your perception of self would reduce your disquiet.
If such is the case, you may fool yourself if you wish. The integrity of your mental structure is of very little concern to me.

Put away the thesaurus, it's not helping you. Try a dictionary instead.

 

[Linflas]

To answer the initial question yes but it would require a shift in thinking I doubt will happen.

1. The school is for education, it is not a day care facility, it is not a place to teach children the social skills they should be learning from their parents, it is not a place to leave your children while you are at work and where you expect them to deal with your problems getting home in time to care for them.

2. Related to #1 the school is responsible for your child while it is on school grounds. It is not responsible for it once it leaves school grounds. It is not responsible to ensure that you are there to meet the child when the bus drops it off, not responsible for what it posts on the internet, not responsible for your child’s interactions with other children while not on school grounds. Schools are involved in all these things now because parents are demanding it, not because they want to be involved in all aspects of your child’s life.

3. There is no classroom of 1. If your child continually disrupts the class it is depriving around 27 other children their opportunity to learn. It should not be their obligation to deal with your child’s behavior problems. It should not be the school systems problem to deal with their behavior problems. If you cannot correct your child’s behavior so it can participate in class then it is time for you to start paying for a private education.

And that is just for starters. If it sounds impossible it really wasn't so very long ago when this was the norm.

 

[MovingTarget]

To answer the initial question yes but it would require a shift in thinking I doubt will happen.

1. The school is for education, it is not a day care facility, it is not a place to teach children the social skills they should be learning from their parents, it is not a place to leave your children while you are at work and where you expect them to deal with your problems getting home in time to care for them.

2. Related to #1 the school is responsible for your child while it is on school grounds. It is not responsible for it once it leaves school grounds. It is not responsible to ensure that you are there to meet the child when the bus drops it off, not responsible for what it posts on the internet, not responsible for your child’s interactions with other children while not on school grounds. Schools are involved in all these things now because parents are demanding it, not because they want to be involved in all aspects of your child’s life.

3. There is no classroom of 1. If your child continually disrupts the class it is depriving around 27 other children their opportunity to learn. It should not be their obligation to deal with your child’s behavior problems. It should not be the school systems problem to deal with their behavior problems. If you cannot correct your child’s behavior so it can participate in class then it is time for you to start paying for a private education.

And that is just for starters. If it sounds impossible it really wasn't so very long ago when this was the norm.

I agree with this. I would however say that although it is not the place of a school to teach proper social skills, the school should be reinforcing them. Cooperative learning requires this and it does translate well into the work environment. School != daycare though. That mentality needs to die a rapid death.

 

[sandorski]

This guy has interesting ideas, not many details on solutions though

 

[Vette73]

To answer the initial question yes but it would require a shift in thinking I doubt will happen.

1. The school is for education, it is not a day care facility, it is not a place to teach children the social skills they should be learning from their parents, it is not a place to leave your children while you are at work and where you expect them to deal with your problems getting home in time to care for them.

2. Related to #1 the school is responsible for your child while it is on school grounds. It is not responsible for it once it leaves school grounds. It is not responsible to ensure that you are there to meet the child when the bus drops it off, not responsible for what it posts on the internet, not responsible for your child’s interactions with other children while not on school grounds. Schools are involved in all these things now because parents are demanding it, not because they want to be involved in all aspects of your child’s life.

3. There is no classroom of 1. If your child continually disrupts the class it is depriving around 27 other children their opportunity to learn. It should not be their obligation to deal with your child’s behavior problems. It should not be the school systems problem to deal with their behavior problems. If you cannot correct your child’s behavior so it can participate in class then it is time for you to start paying for a private education.

And that is just for starters. If it sounds impossible it really wasn't so very long ago when this was the norm.

To add most parents don’t even support the education system. I remember when the school system said football teams would not get any new equipment. Many parents were pissed off and raised money and got other funds taken away from other programs.
Yet when the school system said the 5+ year old books would be kept, no money for paper, etc... crickets were all that were heard. We were a little lucky that most teachers went through the books and pointed out things like the statue of liberty was not made out of steel but copper, and many other in your face errors.

 

[lord_emperor]

Why do they let their kids get pushed up to the next grade when they can't do the work? Why do people put up with it?

Most people are stupid and therefore their kids are stupid. It's not the school's fault that kids don't pay attention or try to learn (or can't read!).

Education starts at home. Parents have the responsibility to instill some basic skills such as reading and arithmetic at an early age, as well as a sense of responsibility. Without this schooling is useless.

 

[Linflas]

I agree with this. I would however say that although it is not the place of a school to teach proper social skills, the school should be reinforcing them. Cooperative learning requires this and it does translate well into the work environment. School != daycare though. That mentality needs to die a rapid death.

When I was in grade school we used to get graded on Citizenship as well as Behavior so yes the schools can certainly reinforce social skills but they cannot substitute for the parents as the primary teachers of them.

 

[JSt0rm]

I propose that the school system is exactly how the powers that be want them. Much easier to control a stupid population.

 

[classy]

Would charter schools be as successful with the same uncaring parents that flood the public schools?

Charter schools are as successful, because just about 100 percent of the parents care about their kids future or they wouldn't be in a private school.

100% correct

 

[MovingTarget]

When I was in grade school we used to get graded on Citizenship as well as Behavior so yes the schools can certainly reinforce social skills but they cannot substitute for the parents as the primary teachers of them.

Agreed. Teachers cannot be the primary instructors in terms of social skills and behavior. Citizenship/civics, personal finance, home economics, etc. should all be MANDATORY classes to graduate high school. Nowadays, high school does little to prepare people for adulthood.

 

[MovingTarget]

Most people are stupid and therefore their kids are stupid. It's not the school's fault that kids don't pay attention or try to learn (or can't read!).

Education starts at home. Parents have the responsibility to instill some basic skills such as reading and arithmetic at an early age, as well as a sense of responsibility. Without this schooling is useless.

We have a saying at my school: Apples do not often fall far from trees.

Sad, but true. Sometimes you need to kick a few to make sure they end up where they need to be.

 

[Zorkorist]

100% correct

But that's abnormal, for some parent to devote their life to their children.

It's freaky, even, from my point of view. (Bachelor)

Normal, everyday education systems should be able to educate children. There is nothing fancy about educating children.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

Agreed. Teachers cannot be the primary instructors in terms of social skills and behavior. Citizenship/civics, personal finance, home economics, etc. should all be MANDATORY classes to graduate high school. Nowadays, high school does little to prepare people for adulthood.

Demand them, then.

I'm going to have to differ with you a bit on Home Economics.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

It's like when you go to college...

Philosphy 101
Psychology 101
Sociology 101
Math 101

amd an elective.

Who is teaching who?

-John

 

[PingSpike]

There are things that can't be done. And there are things that won't be done. The distinction between the two is largely academic.

 

[shortylickens]

There are things that can't be done. And there are things that won't be done. The distinction between the two is largely academic.

If other countries are any indication its perfectly believable that we could create a good education system. A conspiracy theorist might wonder why neither democrat nor republican presidents have done diddly squat to improve things in the past several decades.

 

[zephyrprime]

Schools should be made for profit. There is no way that an effective system can ever be made except where success is rewarded and reproduced and failure is eliminated. Successful schools should be rewarded with more market share and unsuccessful schools should be sold to more successful firms. People need to think in terms of systemic solutions. Merely drawing up an awesome policy plan is never enough to get things accomplished in the real world.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

Schools should be made for profit. There is no way that an effective system can ever be made except where success is rewarded and reproduced and failure is eliminated. Successful schools should be rewarded with more market share and unsuccessful schools should be sold to more successful firms. People need to think in terms of systemic solutions. Merely drawing up an awesome policy plan is never enough to get things accomplished in the real world.

That would be useless, because people could just falsify results, and the money provides the incentive. Also, I would like to point out that in many other countries the public school system is very effective at turning out students who are better-prepared for adult life than the US system. Yet the schools are not designed around a monetary incentive.

I don't know whether you have standardized exams throughout the country or not, but I think if you do, then providing a cash prize of $500 or more for students who get good results is a good idea. Of course, this only works if the tests are standardized, and are externally marked and moderated. Otherwise the same potential for falsification exists.

 

[IGBT]

slash public school funding. Force dept.of ed. to focus only on basic education. No social engineering what so ever. Start a public school tuition which will bring parents back into the educational loop. Once parents start paying for educational service they will be interested in the end result. Present situation guarantees a tard society with no competitive job skills. Why do you think so many jobs have vanished from the US? Most of you guys are simply unemployable and have the motivation of a sloth.

 

[Cogman]

Schools should be made for profit. There is no way that an effective system can ever be made except where success is rewarded and reproduced and failure is eliminated. Successful schools should be rewarded with more market share and unsuccessful schools should be sold to more successful firms. People need to think in terms of systemic solutions. Merely drawing up an awesome policy plan is never enough to get things accomplished in the real world.

I'm generally for privatizing everything, however, schools are one area that I'm not for it. The problem with making schools for profit is the fact that it will, by its nature, cause a large education gap. The poor won't be able to afford the best schools which will only perpetuate generations of poor students.

Now, what I am for is basing funding on results. good teachers should be payed more than bad teachers. The problem I have with this method is how do you measure the goodness of a teacher? If you base it off of standardize tests, how do you deal with teachers that get lots of dumb students? If you base it off of parents approval, well, we've already discussed the problem with that. If we base it off of teachers reviews/evaluations, then you will just see all teachers saying that every teacher is a good teacher.

It isn't a problem that just using money will fix. If we do give more money to education, we should make the teachers fight for it. How we keep the fight fair, however, is something I don't know how to accomplish. Just about any metric used can and probably will have some pretty big flaws in it.

 

[zephyrprime]

That would be useless, because people could just falsify results, and the money provides the incentive.

External standardized testing could be done.

The problem with making schools for profit is the fact that it will, by its nature, cause a large education gap. The poor won't be able to afford the best schools which will only perpetuate generations of poor students.

Yes that is true. Even with various countermeasures to deal with that any privatized system will not be economically fair.

Now, what I am for is basing funding on results. good teachers should be payed more than bad teachers.

That's fine but it's not nearly enough. It's simply too small scale. A teacher is only one person and a talented person, while effective, is limited by the efficacy of the system he works within. Only by allowing successful schools to expand market share while failures go out of business can we attain LARGE SCALE changes to the system and large improvements in performance. Darwinistic trial and error and survival of the fittest schools is the only way I can think of to evolve the school system into something that is actually effective.

Also, I don't want to put all the onus of our crappy students onto the school system. I'm from China myself and I can tell you there's lots of mediocrity in the Chinese school system. Also, a lot of schools in the cities have ~100 students per teacher. What allows the city schools to get better results is that the US simply has a culture where school isn't "cool". The kids themselves deserve a lot of the blame too. They just don't care in many cases.

 

[Linflas]

Schools should be made for profit. There is no way that an effective system can ever be made except where success is rewarded and reproduced and failure is eliminated. Successful schools should be rewarded with more market share and unsuccessful schools should be sold to more successful firms. People need to think in terms of systemic solutions. Merely drawing up an awesome policy plan is never enough to get things accomplished in the real world.

For profit is fine for the private system, the problem is that we do need a public system as well for those that can't afford to enroll their kids in a private school. We had a very effective public system for the first 2/3s of the 20th century. If you really want to get to the root of the problem you have to start examining what has changed in the public system beginning in the early 1970's onward.

 

[Jaskalas]

200 years ago school was a LUXURY, yet people still managed to get educated. Yet now we're so much more refined.... and we've got morons who can't raise their kids.

Well said sir, the whole post.

Worst part is, how do you think those kids of the morons will do? Even worse than their parents. It's a downward spiral and simply a result of modern society. It's the sort of natural mechanism that helps ensure great nations fall from within.

 

[Zorkorist]

For profit is fine for the private system, the problem is that we do need a public system as well for those that can't afford to enroll their kids in a private school. We had a very effective public system for the first 2/3s of the 20th century. If you really want to get to the root of the problem you have to start examining what has changed in the public system beginning in the early 1970's onward.

That which changed, would it be that kids were no longer allowed to "fail?"

Minimum wages, governmental regulation, taxation, made it prohibitively expensive to hire "laborers?"

Was it the war on drugs?

What did change? Inquiring minds want to know.

-John