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Can we ever remake public schools to get costs under control and better results?

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Brigandier said:
I'll invoke Kenobi on you and say from a certain point of view. Any civilization and society can work, so any decision for that society is correct, the trick comes in supporting the society that is actually good. You can make 1 trillion right decisions and still be doing wrong.
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I'll invoke Ayn Rand,

I... ego.

There is no society, there is no government, there is only I, ego.

-John
 
Zorkorist said:
One human can teach, it has been done many times.

-John
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It has been done at times where the students self-worth has been sacrificed. Would you really want your kid to feel stupid at school? I mean, is that really why you pay property taxes, so your kid can feel stupid?
 
Teaching has nothing to do with anyones self worth. It is a way of explaining a thing to children.

You could devote yourseld to answering your childs questions, or you could pay a teacher.

-John
 
Zorkorist said:
Teaching has nothing to do with anyones self worth. It is a way of explaining a thing to children.

You could devote yourseld to answering your childs questions, or you could pay a teacher.

-John
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I guess I don't quite align here, education has been sacrificed for children's self worth.Imagine A students in the 70's and before, imagine them since the 80'. Are the same type of students A students? if not, what type are A students? Presently, they are students that combine an average amount of intelligence with an average amount of social aptitude. That is the modern ideal, and it is rewarded. If you're too smart without social aptitude, you are autistic; if you are too social without scholastic aptitude, you are also autistic. What can you really do?
 
DominionSeraph said:
Why do you feel the need to sign every post with your generic surname when you have been given the ability to customize the identifiers that automatically attach to the left of each post?

-DominionSeraph
-Implier of The Obvious
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For someone who believes himself an intellectual superior, you should really know the difference between a surname and given name.

Despite all your useless bluster, you're just another ignorant buffoon.
 
Brigandier said:
I guess I don't quite align here, education has been sacrificed for children's self worth.Imagine A students in the 70's and before, imagine them since the 80'. Are the same type of students A students? if not, what type are A students? Presently, they are students that combine an average amount of intelligence with an average amount of social aptitude. That is the modern ideal, and it is rewarded. If you're too smart without social aptitude, you are autistic; if you are too social without scholastic aptitude, you are also autistic. What can you really do?
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You can be Bill Gates, or President Obama, there really isn't a limit on you.

While we may argue what others have to face, there are some that succeed in spite of obstacles.

It's those that we should be celebrating.

-John
 
Zorkorist said:
You can be Bill Gates, or President Obama, there really isn't a limit on you.

While we may argue what others have to face, there are some that succeed in spite of obstacles.

It's those that we should be celebrating.

-John
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Yes, I guess. I don't want to be P.Obama or B.Gates. I want to be someone very much in between, I want to be the person that busts his ass and perfects his hobbies. Within the capitalist system I can only be a worker that takes his wage, subtracts his livings and pursues his individual goals. Barack Obama and Bill Gates are the images society would like us to chase, but they aren't real. Well yes, those few humans that figure it out should be commended. They are not the real story, the real story is the person that has a job and a hobby they violently pursue. Those types of people are what make corporations and governments go round.
 
I understand that too, and it's equally as important as P. Obama and B. Gates, drive. Just in a different direction.

What's important is that you are free to live your life and persue happiness.

-John
 
Zorkorist said:
lol Arizona doesn't have vouchers... and even if it did, what you posted would not be the conclusion.

-John
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AZ parents can send their kids to any charter school. The money that would have gone to the public school their kid would have otherwise attended then goes to the charter school instead. Functionally this is a voucher system; parent chooses school, money follows that choice.
 
Two things need to change in the public school system.

1. Parents - Guess what, little jimmy isn't special. He isn't a super genius. He CAN fail. If everyone is getting an A in the class, the class is pretty much worthless because it isn't pushing the kids hard enough. Do you want your kid to learn or do you want him to get an attaboy?

2. The teaching style - Right now, (and partially because the problem above) it is almost impossible for a kid to fail a class from elementary on up. It is nearly impossible for a kid to get held back. And what is worse, every child is taught to the lowest level so that not child gets "left behind."

Why should a kid that can't read be in the same class as a kid reading at a college level?
 
drebo said:
There are usually more "administrators" at schools now than there are teachers.

Kids who want to learn and are accellerated are not encouraged to go faster and further, and are instead lumped in with those who cannot or will not put forth effort. The result is not that the slow kids go faster, it's that the fast kids are bored and misbehave.

Parents are partly to blame for not admitting that their kids shouldn't be in the same class as the top kids, but the institution needs to come out and enforce that.
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I am not sure what you mean by 'administrators'. If you are talking about actual administrators this is, by and large, not true. From what I have seen across many many schools here in Michigan this is not true unless you include janitors, IT staff, bus drivers, etc

There are some accelerated programs out there - Honors or AP classes. Taking classes early. But I will agree that it is not as diverse as it should be.. The unfortunate part is it will get worse as more and more schools increase class sizes and cut teacher positions to save money

Cogman said:
2. The teaching style - Right now, (and partially because the problem above) it is almost impossible for a kid to fail a class from elementary on up. It is nearly impossible for a kid to get held back. And what is worse, every child is taught to the lowest level so that not child gets "left behind."
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For some odd reason it has become the new fad for schools to not force kids to repeat grades - the parents decide if, after failing Algebra I, little Johny has to repeat it or go on to Algebra II

My wife has at least one student in each of her classes right now that failed the class before it. Guess what? Every single one is failing this one too. I am sure this is completely unrelated bit not a single one has attended her open offer for help before or after school and their parents don't care when she calls
 
Zorkorist said:
One person, a teacher, should be able to command a room full of kids.

-John
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Theoretically, yes. But you have to keep in mind how many "kids" there are, and their temperament. In many schools, they act like animals and the teacher has no real authority with consequences to back it up with students. Back in your time, they largely did. Teachers' ability to control a classroom in many cases has been undermined by parents, administrators, lawyers, etc. Modern students and parents have taken note of this.
 
The way we make public schools yield better results involves changing our culture. Parents must encourage their children to do well and work hard in their academics. We also must develop a culture that does not brand those who do show interest in their education as outcasts, make science and math skills something to be proud of, etc.

In other words, we are screwed...
 
Lower cost and better result for public school systems? Keep on dreaming. Without parents/school unions/students cooperation, nothing will change, much.

Ask former Washington DC school chancellor Rhee how hard it was for her to reform the DC school system. For those of you that don't know how bad DC school system is, try to watch the movie "Waiting for Superman".

She and former Mayor Fenty tried to reform but could not and now both of them are out of office.

Story = http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-...own-as-washington-d-c-schools-chancellor.html
 
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BoberFett said:
For someone who believes himself an intellectual superior, you should really know the difference between a surname and given name.
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My method of reconstruction does result in some artifacts. "Sur," in French meaning, "on," leads me to translate "surname" to be the name on top of the base family name.
The rate of artifact occurrence in compression to/decompression from root is acceptable given its multiplicative effect on vocabulary size.

Your apparent eagerness to jump onto a such a minor thing does bring your confidence level into question. Perhaps you have figured that if you can shift your perception of my intelligence downward that the reduction in contrast with your perception of self would reduce your disquiet.
If such is the case, you may fool yourself if you wish. The integrity of your mental structure is of very little concern to me.
 
I can tell you we have the exact same situation in Denmark, but our education system is even more expensive than yours, and we do worse in the PISA test.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/education/07education.html

I've been working as a teacher at a private school for 3 years now. I'm a M.Sc. in microbiology, so I haven't had a teachers education. The school I work at, is a school where our approach is more academic oriented than the average public school. So 80-90% of our students wants to learn and work really hard at it. This doesn't mean you have to be a gifted to attend the school, just that you're willing to what you can to improve and learn.
There are several problems with the education systems today.

1. Teachers are often not the top students of a class, because the teachers aren't respected any more and the salary is pretty low, and thus the quality of teaching diminish.
2. Since the parents have no respect for the teacher, neither will the children, and that allows for noisy children making teaching pretty hard.
3. To many politicians, parents etc. think they know how to do the best teaching. No-one listens to those who have actually taken an education in teaching.
 
Patranus said:
A charter school isn't a private school.

Education needs to be redefined. Not everyone is going to go to college. A test should be given at the start of high school. Then the kids should be put on a path to a trade career or college. The system right now doesn't give students any real world skills.
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Tests are absolutely terrible at predicting college success. This idea is horrid.
 
The bottom line is that education can't be guaranteed. We need to make the best use of our money. Why are we spending so much money on our worst students when we should be investing it in our top 10-20%? Kick the bottom 25% out of school and spend that money on the smartest. That will make our country stronger and more competitive.
 
Schadenfroh said:
The way we make public schools yield better results involves changing our culture...

In other words, we are screwed...
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You're closing in on the problem, but missing the mark.

If I may be so bold, but it seems to me that everyone in this thread is beating around the bush and completely missing the real problem. The problem is purely Cultural and has little to do, although is influenced by that Culture, the System setup to educate. The real issue here is Decadence, over stimulation, and everybody trying to scratch their way to the Top in a Society where getting to the Top is becoming increasingly(even despite the recent Economic troubles)difficult. This is why Materialism and Massive Debt is rampant from the very bottom to the very top of Society, everyone is living the Dream even if that Dream is beyond their means.

I wish I could give an easy solution, but I can't. the problem has been going on for so long that the very Infrastructure where people live assumes that the vast majority will have the means of a Lifestyle that no longer is feasible. This has resulted in growing inefficiencies for the average citizen which constantly pushes that citizen further and further away from the assumed necessary Lifestyle to maintain the system.

One of these Infrastructure induced inefficiencies, going off on a tangent, is the Automobile/Suburb relationship. In a highly Urbanized society, such as we are in North America, there is really little need for an Automobile for Transportation. Yet we have chosen to saddle ourselves with that, because it's part of the Dream, "Freedom", and our Materialism. The amount of Money we spend on the Automobile, both Personally and Publicly is a drag on us all though. Constantly putting stresses on the Individual to Work harder and longer which makes Parenting increasingly difficult in itself, never mind the idea of them being Good or Bad Parents.

There are no easy solutions, for the problem is deeply entrenched and entirely of our own creation in poorly conceived Values. Until those Values change however, it is very unlikely the Public Education system can be improved.
 
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DominionSeraph said:
My method of reconstruction does result in some artifacts. "Sur," in French meaning, "on," leads me to translate "surname" to be the name on top of the base family name.
The rate of artifact occurrence in compression to/decompression from root is acceptable given its multiplicative effect on vocabulary size.

Your apparent eagerness to jump onto a such a minor thing does bring your confidence level into question. Perhaps you have figured that if you can shift your perception of my intelligence downward that the reduction in contrast with your perception of self would reduce your disquiet.
If such is the case, you may fool yourself if you wish. The integrity of your mental structure is of very little concern to me.
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Nice attempt at fabricating on overly complex excuse for your failure of basic language skills, buffoon.
 
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