BulletStorm didn't sell well because of piracy

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Excerpts from list of 10,000 reasons Gore lost 400 voted to Bush in Florida:

From the 'legitimate' section:

- Not good enough jokes in speeches
- Positions on many issues
- Didn't spend more on advertising
- Didn't spend enough time in Florida
- Wife not prettier
- That goofy accent...

From the 'not legitmate section':

- The felon purge list intentionally being over broad excluding tens of thousands of legitimate voters
- Ignoring the law and a court order to allow residents who committed felonies in another state who had the voting right restored to vote, costing thousands of votes
- Setting the machines in Republican districts to return erroneous ballots to voters to correct, while keeping and invalidating them in Democratic districts, costing many thousands of Democratic votes and far lower rates of ballots rejected in Republican precints than Democratic

From the 'oops' section:
- A butterfly ballot design flaw (by a Democrat) causing thousands of Gore voters to vote for Pay Buchanan on accident

And so on.

Now, I'm making the point the NOT LEGITIMATE issues are a problem. Piracy WAS WRONG and WAS ENOUGH TO CAUSE THE CANCELLATION OF THE SEQUEL.

Your points 'the game was only 82% and if it'd been a lot better that'd solve the problem' is no more relevant than saying 'who cares about stealing votes, Gore is to blame'.

I don't know why you keep reading more into my words than what I'm saying. Mediocre sales are the reason are the reason we aren't getting a sequel to this. And you can't blame piracy for mediocre sales of a mediocre game. Piracy is every bit as wrong as you continue to rant about, but using it as an excuse here is a canard.

 

[KIAman]

I thought Bulletstorm was a fun, short game. I think I beat it from start to finish within a day's worth of gaming, just like Duke Nukem. There is little content and no replayability. No reason to continue playing after you beat it.

I think the issue is the publisher's believe the value of their games with such little content is worth $50+? They need a reality check. Sorry they spent tons of cash to make a game that only lasts 6-8 hours but to the average consumer, a game like that is only worth $5-$10.

 

[Craig234]

software piracy is too deep into the everyday activities it does not even look as doing something wrong anymore (thats the general idea)

As some people said: "i buy the games i want to play" and that is true, we almost always do that.
the bad thing is i dont think any of us has enough money to buy every game they want.

Its a mix of stuff

1) its too easy to pirate games, in comparison to "steal" (copy) food from Mcdonalds
2) games are too expensive, specially at release. How much food from mcdonalds do you buy for 1 skyrim (60 dollars)?
3) people tend to buy games that require multiplayer. Single player games are hit here, although i love them
4) Lots of shitty games, LOTS... and if you get into account point number 2 it makes you think "do i really want to pay 60 dollars for this game?"

and maybe a couple points more that i didnt think of.

I played bulletstorm, pirated it... i got bored fast and unintalled it. I recalled it was not such a bad game but it didnt interested me. When it was on sale i almost bought it but even at that moment i thought "not worth it".
I bought Deus Ex: HR for a couple dollars more instead

You make some valid points, and some invalid.

Since when does 'can't afford all they want' justify stealing the rest?

There are legitimate issues to discuss about that - for example, if the 'free market' ruled, our beutiful beaches and national parks could be owned by billionares and the public could not enjoy them - and it's legitimate to say we want to allow the public access to enjoy those things they 'can't afford' if the market ruled.

But games are pretty cheap, relatively speaking. Not a real issue.

A legitimate point you make is that an issue is that piracy is easy. It's as if someone invented an easy way to shoplife - it'd be epidemic and happen even if wrong.

And like some looters, you would find a lot of rationalizing why it's ok.

The issue it's easy isn't about right and wrong.

So what if Skyrim is $60? That's because it's a game with massively more development cost, if you want that. You can buy a cheap RPG for under a dollar.

How much is watching a great HBO series? First run costs cable + HBO. Seasons generally cost around $60 to spend a bit less if you wait. And less if you wait for a sale.

But I guess pirating them is ok if you don't like to spend that.

Why don't we just not make expensive shows, you can get hundreds of crap reality shows for pennies or free with advertising?

Your point #4 - then don't play them!

 

[EDUSAN]

being a mediocre game is part of the problem too

if you check the statistics of steam... skyrim is in the top 5 since release. A single player game has been in the top5 for like 5 months.
Counter strike is top5 too and its super easy to find a cracked server to play in any part of the world.

you can say: every game will have a 4:1 ratio of pirated games, but for some reason (lets call it "being a good game") counter strike and skyrim sold a lot more legal copies too than bulletstorm

Craig: piracy is bad, i know it, everyone knows it... im just pointing out what FOR ME, are the reasons everyone does it (although not justified)

the thing with point 4 is that you dont know that the game is SHIT until 1) you waste your money 2) you pirate it

and as i said: its the mix of all the points... the chain of events

I think this game could be fun -> game is expensive -> i dont believe its worth that much -> but i want to play this game -> pirating is free and easy.

Im sure that if piracy was harder to do (or impossible) the chain would be

I think this game could be fun -> game is expensive -> i dont believe its worth that much -> but i want to play this game -> maybe ill get it in a sale or not get it

 

[ImpulsE69]

Craig is ignoring the realistic arguments for the sake of argument.

It didn’t do very well on PC” he said, “and I think a lot of that was due to piracy. It wasn’t the best PC port ever, sure, but also piracy was a pretty big problem.”

Really? That's funny because EVERY game has a piracy problem. It was not a stellar game. You realize that there are games that haven't been discounted to anywhere near $5 that are doing better than Bulletstorm ever did? It was a console port that wasn't even a good console port. He says it right there, but...no...it's the pirates. Again, easier to blame an intangible than whats staring you in the face.

 

[BoberFett]

Admittedly it was a crap game. However, this is not an appropriate use of "Entitlement". Entitlement is laying claim and ownership to that which is not yours. They own the POS, they are just not willing to admit that it is a POS.

Actually it is entitlement, they feel entitled to other people's money whether they've earned it or not.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

And here I was staying out of P&N today to avoid a pissing match. And to get in one here, with Craig234 of all people.

 

[gothamhunter]

Game A gets pirated.
Game B gets pirated.

Game A quality = crap, based on general user concensus.
Game A sales = crap, because of general user concensus.

Game B quality = excellent, based on general user concensus.
Game B sales = excellent, because of general user concensus.

I don't see what's difficult to understand here.

Both games get pirated.
Bad game = bad sales.
Good game = good sales.

 

[EDUSAN]

they probably thing they earn it. Nobody who creates something things its not worth it.

Bulletstorm had some stuff going on for it. The graphics are really good, the "fun" killing is actually "fun" for a while.

Probably the problem was that they think they felt the game was better than it actually was or that it was going to sell more than it did.

Cause if i recall properly there was a lot of hype about the game prior its release

Game A gets pirated.
Game B gets pirated.

Game A quality = crap, based on general user concensus.
Game A sales = crap, because of general user concensus.

Game B quality = excellent, based on general user concensus.
Game B sales = excellent, because of general user concensus.

I don't see what's difficult to understand here.

Both games get pirated.
Bad game = bad sales.
Good game = good sales.

that actually is correct most of the time. Games WILL get pirated, but the amount of legal copies is a clear indicator of how good a game is (there are some other variables going on too like if it has MP, if its a mmorpg, etc)
but... we all can see how well skyrim did for a single player game that it would not matter if your copy was pirated or legal

 

[BoberFett]

And here I was staying out of P&N today to avoid a pissing match. And to get in one here, with Craig234 of all people.

You won't find a bigger supporter of Big Copyright than Craig. For all of his hate on corporations, he can't seem to get enough of the Copyright Cartel...

 

[ImpulsE69]

Yes it was heavily marketed, and pretty much the consensus was when it came out that it was short, immature, and repetitive. 2 of those things are big red X's in my book for a $50 game. I'm all for immaturity ;p Maybe it was a great console game..wouldn't know, but it was a mediocre PC game.

 

[reallyscrued]

Is there a way of figuring out what all the costs are for developing DRM, buying licenses, writing software, etc; when it comes to implementing all these anti-piracy measures? Authenticating servers, maintenance, SecuROM and that stuff...?

I'm curious as to if they would be better off just not paying for all of that and subtracting the savings from the price of the game at release in order to sell at a lower price point and maybe sell more copies.

 

[Craig234]

Is there a way of figuring out what all the costs are for developing DRM, buying licenses, writing software, etc; when it comes to implementing all these anti-piracy measures? Authenticating servers, maintenance, SecuROM and that stuff...?

I'm curious as to if they would be better off just not paying for all of that and subtracting the savings from the price of the game at release in order to sell at a lower price point and maybe sell more copies.

Yes, and it's a bad choice for publishers either way; I mentioned the Witcher 2 piracy info as an example of a game that tried the approach you mention, just accepting 1:5-10.

Some find the DRM in their opinion nets them more sales, and some find that DRM-free nets them more sales. Either lose the extra piracy sales, or the anti-DRM people sales.

Again the publishers that don't have to make this tradeoff much are ones like the MMO's who can (mostly) get paid by all their players.

 

[Phokus]

Big wall of text

Game ratings from magazines should be taken with a grain of salt, especially after dragon age 2 (aka, one of the shittiest sequels in the history of gaming).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_age_2#Reception

Game ratings are so damn untrustworthy, there's so much conflict of interest.

Edit:

To underscore the point, see the difference between industry reviews and user reviews:

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/dragon-age-ii

 

[Corporate Thug]

Bulletstorm was a great $10 game.

 

[JamesV]

You guys are all missing the point. It isn't about piracy or shitty games, it's about future online-authorized invasive DRM.

They want it; it will come; so they need to bitch and complain about piracy, so that when they introduce more DRM they have a long history of 'reasons'.

 

[reallyscrued]

Yes, and it's a bad choice for publishers either way; I mentioned the Witcher 2 piracy info as an example of a game that tried the approach you mention, just accepting 1:5-10.

The Witcher 2 released at a discount price? Don't think you understood my post all the way through.

 

[alent1234]

Gonad, please explain to me the companies, with some evidence, who expect you to buy their game despite bad quality? I'm not familiar with those companies. DRM, yes.

Are their companies who put out not so good games for sale? Of course - but you can not buy them, there's no indication they 'think they're entitled to your money' for them.

I'd understand more if you were talking about a market with less competition, with some more compulsary element, though it's hard to come up with many examples in the US.

every time some me too crappy game doesn't sell well piracy is to blame. when i saw the previews for bulletstorm i knew enough to avoid it. they took some GoW art, repackaged it a bit, added lots of bad language and grabbing genetalia and expected it to sell to people

 

[VashHT]

First, even 'not so good games' deserve people who choose to play them to pay for them.

McDonalds is not that good of food, but you owe them the dollar or two for an item.

Second, an 82% gamerankings is a good rating - most games are 'worse'.

You are just demonstrating exactly what I said in my post about gamers being ideological and posting a story they want, ignoring the facts.

I'm not really sure what you think I've demonstrated, I didn't pirate the game at all. I don't think its ok for people to pirate it because it sucked either, I just think that's the real cause of their poor sales and little would have changed even if piracy was impossible.

 

[Nintendesert]

You guys are all missing the point. It isn't about piracy or shitty games, it's about future online-authorized invasive DRM.

They want it; it will come; so they need to bitch and complain about piracy, so that when they introduce more DRM they have a long history of 'reasons'.

And the real point of invasive online DRM is to kill the used game market. STEAM effectively does this but these companies are trying to find ways to extend it to the console market which is their real end goal.

The more of this DRM crap they get us to swallow the more easily they can get consoles to use it.

 

[reallyscrued]

every time some me too crappy game doesn't sell well piracy is to blame. when i saw the previews for bulletstorm i knew enough to avoid it. they took some GoW art, repackaged it a bit, added lots of bad language and grabbing genetalia and expected it to sell to people

Haha, it's actually pretty funny.

I have a two friends who pretty much exclusively pirate games. PS3, 360, PC, Wii, you name it. I think I've bought more titles in the last year than they legitimately played in the last 5 years.

Neither one of them bothered to touch this game. And the genre is right up their alley.

Seriously, there's something wrong with a product if you *can* get it for free but people aren't willing to take their time to bother with it.

 

[Craig234]

being a mediocre game is part of the problem too

if you check the statistics of steam... skyrim is in the top 5 since release. A single player game has been in the top5 for like 5 months.
Counter strike is top5 too and its super easy to find a cracked server to play in any part of the world.

you can say: every game will have a 4:1 ratio of pirated games, but for some reason (lets call it "being a good game") counter strike and skyrim sold a lot more legal copies too than bulletstorm

Craig: piracy is bad, i know it, everyone knows it... im just pointing out what FOR ME, are the reasons everyone does it (although not justified)

the thing with point 4 is that you dont know that the game is SHIT until 1) you waste your money 2) you pirate it

and as i said: its the mix of all the points... the chain of events

I think this game could be fun -> game is expensive -> i dont believe its worth that much -> but i want to play this game -> pirating is free and easy.

Im sure that if piracy was harder to do (or impossible) the chain would be

I think this game could be fun -> game is expensive -> i dont believe its worth that much -> but i want to play this game -> maybe ill get it in a sale or not get it

I agree with most of your post, but I think part of the ideology issue I'm seeing is the 'blame the victim' issue.

You see it all over. I used the 2000 election issue, blaming Gore for an imperfect campaign instead of dealing with the fraud issues.

Take this Trayvon Martin shooting - some are saying, and for the sake of argument let's say correctly, that it might not have happened if he'd just politely talked to Zimmerman and explained why he was in the neighborhood; but the fact that might be true does not justify an uinjustified shooting, if that's what happened.

The classic 'blame the victim' is 'she dressed like a slut' and if she wouldn't have, she wouldn't have been raped.

In this case, it's blaming the game quality and ignoring the harm of piracy - so much so that early posts wrongly claimed the CEO refused to admit any problem with the game.

If the game needed $1,000,000 in sales to make a sequel, and fell $200,000 with an estimated $500,000 because of piracy (made up figures to make a point), then it might be true but it's not the issue with piracy that 'if they'd made a game that sold more, they could have made over $1,000,000'. The game would have made $1.3 million without piracy, and that's the issue with piracy, not 'blame the game for not making more'.

The only point here is to correct the people saying that publisher complaints about piracy are nothing but making that up to justify bad games - it's not the case.

It's to say don't deny piracy is happening and harming the industry. That's where ideology is distorting people's opinions.

Of course there are other issues besides piracy - I'm impressed the CEO admitted the quality issue, as I said what other industries have CEO's do that?

When's the last bad movie that had the CEO say it was bad? Or other products? Games are about the most 'forthcoming' industry around it seems to me.

As for determining the game quality before you buy it - there are many quality reviews, and usually even demos.

Look, to make the point, let's see if the reviews of Bulletstorm mention the main criticism I saw in this thread of people who are attracted to the game.

They said they finished it in three days, or only one full day of playing - too short.

Here's a 9/10 review: "The eight hour-odd campaign is fantastically well paced." So, you'd know it was an eight hour campaign.

Gamestop, 8/10: "The six-hour campaign is packed with fun shooting made even more enjoyable by the way you earn rewards for being awesome."

IGN, 8/10: "The time-and-score-attack Echo mode is a nice enough inclusion with its online-enabled leaderboards, but why isn't there leaderboard-enabled campaign scoring in the main game? Campaign co-op also seems like a missed opportunity; you have at least one AI partner at all times in Bulletstorm, which makes the solo-only nature of the main game that much more jarring. Campaign leaderboards would help give replay value to a main game that I finished in less than six hours, and Echo just didn't hold my attention."

'Finished less than six hours'.

I didn't pick those reviews and skip any that didn't mention it.

You get the idea.

Something all the reviews I checked mention, the posters didn't for whatever reason, childish and gratuitous language, one more reason I skipped the game when priced higher.

 

[alent1234]

i remember in the 90's before cursing in games there was some redneck FPS shooter where you killed aliens or something. a few months after release there was an explicit language free DLC pack. i got it and was bored in 5 minutes after the novelty wore off

 

[Craig234]

And the real point of invasive online DRM is to kill the used game market. STEAM effectively does this but these companies are trying to find ways to extend it to the console market which is their real end goal.

The more of this DRM crap they get us to swallow the more easily they can get consoles to use it.

There's nothing wrong with 'killing the used game market', really.

A good percentage of games sold used prevent a new game sale, reducing revenue - which you say 'that's crap' when you want to buy, but not so much when you realize that that reduced revenue hurts you in higher prices or reduced budget and quality when you buy the game new.

It's just a business model issue. How does a used buyer compensate the developer?

 

[Craig234]

i remember in the 90's before cursing in games there was some redneck FPS shooter where you killed aliens or something. a few months after release there was an explicit language free DLC pack. i got it and was bored in 5 minutes after the novelty wore off

Redneck Rampage. You, me, and every commentar I've ever seen on that game.

Reminds me of how nudist camps ruin nudity for arousal.