Breaking: SCOTUS strikes down Texas abortion restriction

[Atreus21]

There is NO human suffering involved in terminating this. Given that the clump of cells below is incapable of human suffering, there is NO moral evil in killing it. NONE. Only that which causes suffering can be immoral.

Brilliant. So if I steal something from you without you knowing it, it's perfectly moral. If I rape a woman and she likes it, it's perfectly moral. If you murder someone who's incapable of feeling pain, no problem.

 

[ivwshane]

That's not in question but rather the moral agency and decision making of the mother who aborts. And let's be honest, a big part of the so-called "abortion" debate isn't about the actual procedure itself. It's actually about protecting women from shame which they rightfully deserve for the bad choices that put them in the position of being pregnant and the pure selfishness they exhibit in using abortion to bail them out of that situation.

It's rather ironic that the same side who has raised public shaming to historic heights when it comes to people saying non politically correct things then completely and vehemently disavow its use on people just as deserving of a public shaming. The public stigma to abortion should be enormous since we as a society are basically saying "you've made such fucked up decisions that we are purposely allowing you to take life rather than live with the consequences of your decisions."

No not really. That's perhaps what you'd like it to be about and its how you frame it but the fact is, abortion is a right and a choice between a woman and her doctor. Morality, shaming, and responsibility are irrelevant to that right.
Murder in this country isn't illegal because it's immoral, it's illegal because it's a violation of another person's rights. Its why it's illegal for a parent to kill the pedophile that raped their child even though, morally, the parent would be in the right.

 

[abj13]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/baby

Now read carefully, or I'll accuse you of selecting only the definitions that fit the conclusion you want.

Using terms embryo, fetus, and zygote are all medically accepted terms that have specific definitions of the different stages of development. Baby, as shown by your links is a vague term, used by people to shift the goalposts which ever way they want, and is nothing but an appeal to emotion.

 

[glenn1]

No not really. That's perhaps what you'd like it to be about and its how you frame it but the fact is, abortion is a right and a choice between a woman and her doctor. Morality, shaming, and responsibility are irrelevant to that right.
Murder in this country isn't illegal because it's immoral, it's illegal because it's a violation of another person's rights. Its why it's illegal for a parent to kill the pedophile that raped their child even though, morally, the parent would be in the right.

Do you enjoy abortion as some sort of competitive sport? If not then to get to the oft-repeated stated goal of pro-choice people that abortion should be "safe, available, and rare" then a combination of urging abstinence, 100% use of contraceptives, encouraging more adoption, and yes shaming the shit out of women for abortion is how we get there. Pro-life and pro-choice folks should both have a target of zero elective abortions and making it easy to excuse away poor choices isn't how we get there. Abortion should have the same social stigma that parents who purposely don't pay child support has.

 

[agent00f]

That's not in question but rather the moral agency and decision making of the mother who aborts. And let's be honest, a big part of the so-called "abortion" debate isn't about the actual procedure itself. It's actually about protecting women from shame which they rightfully deserve for the bad choices that put them in the position of being pregnant and the pure selfishness they exhibit in using abortion to bail them out of that situation.

It's rather ironic that the same side who has raised public shaming to historic heights when it comes to people saying non politically correct things then completely and vehemently disavow its use on people just as deserving of a public shaming. The public stigma to abortion should be enormous since we as a society are basically saying "you've made such fucked up decisions that we are purposely allowing you to take life rather than live with the consequences of your decisions."

Well, I'm sure vegetarians have tried shaming you for killing to eat, not sure how that worked out. Should we institute a walk of atonement or something?

We elevate certain "life" to privileged position because it's in our (selfish) interest. It's doesn't seem in our interest to keep kids that the mother doesn't want to raise, simple as that.

 

[Atreus21]

Using terms embryo, fetus, and zygote are all medically accepted terms that have specific definitions of the different stages of development. Baby, as shown by your links is a vague term, used by people to shift the goalposts which ever way they want, and is nothing but an appeal to emotion.

Or an appeal to keep people from drawing meaningless distinctions to distract from the obvious.

 

[glenn1]

Well, I'm sure vegetarians have tried shaming you for killing to eat, not sure how that worked out. Should we institute a walk of atonement or something?

We elevate certain "life" to privileged position because it's in our (selfish) interest. It's doesn't seem in our interest to keep kids that the mother doesn't want to raise, simple as that.

Actually vegetarianism is on a sharp upswing in the U.S. And even mild shaming of tobacco has reduced smoking from like 25% of the population to around 7 or 8% IIRC. Of course that would presume pro-choice folks were even interested in reducing abortions rather than wanting it being "rare" just a talking point.

 

[buckshot24]

Or an appeal to keep people from drawing meaningless distinctions to distract from the obvious.

It is like calling Indians savages, it dehumanizes them so they can continue killing them.

 

[buckshot24]

We elevate certain "life" to privileged position because it's in our (selfish) interest. It's doesn't seem in our interest to keep kids that the mother doesn't want to raise, simple as that.

Humans are more important than cows. Guilty as charged.

 

[agent00f]

Actually vegetarianism is on a sharp upswing in the U.S. And even mild shaming of tobacco has reduced smoking from like 25% of the population to around 7 or 8% IIRC. Of course that would presume pro-choice folks were even interested in reducing abortions rather than wanting it being "rare" just a talking point.

The point is these other people believe you should be ashamed. Are you? Personally I eat meat just fine.

 

[ivwshane]

Do you enjoy abortion as some sort of competitive sport? If not then to get to the oft-repeated stated goal of pro-choice people that abortion should be "safe, available, and rare" then a combination of urging abstinence, 100% use of contraceptives, encouraging more adoption, and yes shaming the shit out of women for abortion is how we get there. Pro-life and pro-choice folks should both have a target of zero elective abortions and making it easy to excuse away poor choices isn't how we get there. Abortion should have the same social stigma that parents who purposely don't pay child support has.

Wrong again. You should be speaking to the anti abortion crowd about how they can make abortion rare. Whether abortion happens often or never is immaterial to the fact that abortion is a right and is a decision between a woman and her doctor.

Its a concept you don't seem to understand which is, I guess, why you keep trying to reframe the debate.

 

[sandorski]

...And let's be honest, a big part of the so-called "abortion" debate isn't about the actual procedure itself. It's actually about protecting women from shame which they rightfully deserve for the bad choices that put them in the position of being pregnant and the pure selfishness they exhibit in using abortion to bail them out of that situation.

This is vile.

 

[abj13]

Or an appeal to keep people from drawing meaningless distinctions to distract from the obvious.

Uh no. Stating something like a majority of abortions are completed on the embryonic stage is informative and factually correct. Most abortions are completed at less than 9 weeks of gestational age. Saying "baby" is a semantic argument fueled by assumptions that does nothing but to distract from the discussion, much like most of buckshot's trolling he does on these forums.

 

[Blackjack200]

This is vile.

Sure is, and it's a peek at what the abortion debate is really about.

 

[buckshot24]

This is vile.

Women who have abortion should feel pride?

 

[Paratus]

Do you enjoy abortion as some sort of competitive sport? If not then to get to the oft-repeated stated goal of pro-choice people that abortion should be "safe, available, and rare" then a combination of urging abstinence, 100% use of contraceptives, encouraging more adoption, and yes shaming the shit out of women for abortion is how we get there. Pro-life and pro-choice folks should both have a target of zero elective abortions and making it easy to excuse away poor choices isn't how we get there. Abortion should have the same social stigma that parents who purposely don't pay child support has.

Well it's nice that you are upfront about what's important in the abortion debate. Punishing women for sex. It's been fairly obvious that's what it's about from the conservative side but so many others simply refuse to come straight out and say it.

Shaming will just make some women, especially young women hide their pregnancies and abortions. Probably see an up tick in teens leaving newborns in the trash too since many are trying to hide themselves from judgemental relgious parents in the first place.

Instead and in addition to comprehensive education and easy access to birth control society could make raising a child easier and drop the shame so the decision to remain pregnant was easier.

 

[bshole]

Abortion should have the same social stigma that parents who purposely don't pay child support has.

Using an invisible monster in the sky to justify your morality should have a much greater stigma than either of those two things. It is one of the greatest sources of human suffering and immorality to ever exist. It is an insult to the intelligence of any rational informed 1st world citizen. I will say it again, if you want your fucking theocracy, move to a 3rd world muslim nation and enjoy ALL THE FRUITS THAT COME FROM COMINGLING FAIRY TALE GODS WITH THE GOVERNANCE OF A CIVILIZATION.

Listen to the barbaric language of the Christians on this very thread. Hell the lack of anything resembling decent humanity in the post I am responding to is a shining example.

 

[blankslate]

The people trying to equate the right of a woman to control when they have children and the Second Amendment is stupid.

Since when has have a woman having access to an abortion resulted in the unwilling spontaneous abortions of several or dozens of other pregnant women?

We have easily referenced examples of a persons unrestricted access to firearms resulting in the spontaneous unwilling end of other peoples' lives.

Fucking idiots.


___________

 

[buckshot24]

The people trying to equate the right of a woman to control when they have children and the Second Amendment is stupid.

Since when has have a woman having access to an abortion resulted in the unwilling spontaneous abortions of several or dozens of other pregnant women?

We have easily referenced examples of a persons unrestricted access to firearms resulting in the spontaneous unwilling end of other peoples' lives.

Fucking idiots.


___________

What do you mean by unrestricted access? Do you think women should be proud about aborting their babies?

 

[buckshot24]

Well it's nice that you are upfront about what's important in the abortion debate. Punishing women for sex. It's been fairly obvious that's what it's about from the conservative side but so many others simply refuse to come straight out and say it.

Women killing their unborn babies is reprehensible, nothing to be proud about. Getting pregnant is not a punishment it is a consequence. The fact that you think it is reprehensible to kill the most helpless doesn't make us look bad.

 

[bshole]

What do you mean by unrestricted access? Do you think women should be proud about aborting their babies?

That is a blatantly immoral statement. You dishonestly insinuate that pro-choice individuals are happy/proud about the necessity for the procedure. You do this kind of thing over and over. It convinces nobody of anything other than the moral failings of your worldview.

Not a single person has come close to "thinking a woman should be proud to abort their FETUS". Why is it that ONLY your side degrades itself with lies and insinuations? I am genuinely curious. Why is honesty so hard?

You used the term BABY again, dishonestly. Typical. Two lies in one sentence.

 

[JD50]

What do you mean by unrestricted access? Do you think women should be proud about aborting their babies?

How they feel about it is irrelevant.

 

[buckshot24]

That is a blatantly immoral statement. You dishonestly insinuate that pro-choice individuals are happy/proud about the necessity for the procedure. You do this kind of thing over and over. It convinces nobody of anything other than the moral failings of your worldview.

I thought immorality involved suffering?

I asked a straight forward question, I didn't say pro choice people think abortion is wonderful or anything else.

Not a single person has come to close to "thinking a woman should be proud to abort their FETUS".

You don't think they should feel shame though. If women feel shame are they wrong?

Why is it that ONLY your side degrades itself with lies and insinuations? I am genuinely curious. Why is honesty so hard?

You use clinical terms in hopes of dehumanizing the victims. Hitler did this with Jews.

You used the term BABY again, dishonestly. Typical. Two lies in one sentence.

A fetus IS a baby, a specific class of babies. I will continue using the term as it is accurate and avoids the death mongers obvious dehumanizing tactics.

 

[buckshot24]

How they feel about it is irrelevant.

It became a subject of discussion. Liberals are saying they shouldn't feel shame or be shamed for killing their unborn babies. Well, should they feel pride?

 

[Paratus]

Women killing their unborn babies is reprehensible, nothing to be proud about.

no babies have been killed

Getting pregnant is not a punishment it is a consequence.

The excessive shaming of the poor decisions that led to them becoming pregnant that Glenn has a boner for was the punishment I was referring to.

The fact that you think it is reprehensible to kill the most helpless doesn't make us look bad.

This sentence doesn't say what you think it does.

In point of fact I do think it's reprehensible to kill the most helpless, but 1st trimester abortions don't do that and late term abortions are generally done for health reasons.

What is reprehensible is believing that medical abortion kills a child while natural spontaneous abortion does not.