BREAKING NEWS!!!--- Israel to bar UN fact-finding team from entering

[yllus]

What? Japan made nuclear weapons and South Korea made it. You think they will let North Korea have them but not themselves?

I'm not aware of Japan or South Korea manufacturing nuclear weapons. Could you provide sources?

 

[nonlnear]

Canada helped the US made the bomb which was dropped on Japan

Holy moving goalposts Batman!

 

[cave_dweller]

I'm not aware of Japan or South Korea manufacturing nuclear weapons. Could you provide sources?

1. A nuclear reactor is a controlled nuclear bomb. Instead of a Megaton blast there is Mkw of instant energy generated.

Canadian nuclear lobbyists often refer to the "thorium cycle" as an alternative to the "plutonium economy." By itself, thorium -- which is more plentiful than uranium -- cannot be used to build an atomic bomb or to fuel a nuclear reactor. However, when thorium is placed inside a nuclear reactor, it "breeds" a new substance called uranium-233, which does not exist in nature. If the thorium is then reprocessed, the uranium-233, can be separated from the rest of the radioactive garbage and used as a reactor fuel. But uranium-233 is also an excellent weapons-grade material, in many respects superior to plutonium. Thus the thorium cycle in no way avoids the security problems associated with a plutonium economy. In January 1982, AECL announced plans to build a laboratory at Varennes, Quebec, to produce uranium-233 as an "artificial substitute" for natural uranium. (In technical terms, the AECL thorium cycle involves a "near-breeder" rather than a "breeder" concept.)

The new enthusiasm for the plutonium economy and the thorium cycle shows that, as before, any attempt to change the priorities of Canada's nuclear industry will run up against the wall of technological complexity that has given it a certain degree of immunity from lay scrutiny. But there is a larger obstacle: because of huge investments of public money and extensive public ownership, the goals of the nuclear lobby are inextricably intertwined with those of governments at various levels. It sometimes seems that the nuclear industry is a force unto itself, operating with impunity. On one of the rare occasions when AECL was held publicly accountable, during the investigations into financial wrongdoing by the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee, unsettling revelations came to light. In its final report, tabled on 27 February 1978, the committee concluded:

Some witnesses of AECL management were reluctant and uncooperative in testifying, and in the case of the chief witness, J. Lorne Gray, evasive as well.

Mr. Gray, then President of AECL, on his own initiative, committed the Crown corporation, and therefore the Government and the people of Canada, to immense expenditures of public funds for agents' fees. Furthermore, Mr. Gray did not know what services were being performed by the agents nor who ultimately received the payments. In the case of the Argentine sale, he stated that he did not even want to know the agent's identity.

Mr. Ross Campbell, Chairman of the AECL, not only failed to put the agreement [ with sales agent Shoul Eisenberg] on a better footing, but also appointed Eisenberg as exclusive agent for the sale of a second [CANDU] unit to South Korea without specifying the charges to be made for these services.

AECL management did not follow acceptable business practices ... nor did it have due regard for the high standard of business ethics which Crown corporations should observe.

The senior management of AECL, including the Secretary, the Treasurer, and the Internal Auditor, did not properly discharge their responsibilities as officers.

The “nuclear renaissance” is in fact a nuclear relapse. Proliferation of nuclear power will be accompanied by a multiplication of nuclearweapons states. Nuclear proponents have long known that uranium supplies will not outlast oil supplies if tens of thousands of reactors are built. Thus nuclear power cannot replace a significant fraction of oil unless plutonium is used as the nuclear fuel of the future. It is no accident that the countries most committed to nuclear power – France, Japan, India, Russia, England – have all made large investments in plutonium recycling technology. Using plutonium as a commercially traded fuel guarantees that this nuclear explosive material will fall into the hands of criminal organizations and terrorist groups. The advent of a plutonium economy makes a nuclear-weapons free world impossible

http://www.ccnr.org/nuclear_primer.html
GO to the main directory on that site. All the nuke facts you want to know is there.

 

[cave_dweller]

Holy moving goalposts Batman!

For over twenty years, Chalk River sold plutonium to the U.S. bomb program to help defray the escalating costs of Canadian nuclear research.

In fact Canada helped more countries making bombs than the whole nuclear industry together.

http://www.ccnr.org/index.html#dir

Canada and the First Atomic Bombs

When C. D. Howe heard, on August 6, 1945, that a uranium bomb had destroyed the city of Hiroshima, he was not surprised. As Minister responsible for Canada's part in the World War II Atomic Bomb Project, he knew it was intended.

He had prepared a statement for the press in advance. "It is a distinct pleasure for me to announce," he said, "that Canadian scientists have played an intimate part, and have been associated in an effective way with this great scientific development."

Three days later, a plutonium bomb destroyed Nagasaki.

For the first time, Canadians were told that uranium from Great Bear Lake in the Northwest Territories, and scientists working in a secret laboratory in Montreal, had played an important role in the Anglo-Canadian-American Atomic Bomb Project -- the largest secret project in human history.

The tripartite A-Bomb Project was a joint venture that began in 1940-41. It was cemented with a secret Agreement signed by Roosevelt and Churchill in Quebec City, August 1943.

The Quebec Agreement stipulated that the Bomb would not be used "against each other," or "against third parties without each other's consent". It also established a Combined Policy Committee of six to deal with the Bomb: three Americans, two Brits, and the Honourable C. D. Howe.

By the time the first A-Bombs were used, Roosevelt and Churchill were gone. Truman and Atlee, their successors, knew nothing about the atomic bomb before they came to office.

But Mackenzie King was still Prime Minister, and he knew. On October 11, 1945, he wrote in his diary: "How strange it is that I should find myself at the very centre of the problem, through Canada possessing uranium, having contributed to the production of the bomb, being recognized as one of the three countries to hold most of the secrets."

Stranger still is the secrecy that still shrouds Canada's historic role, and the lack of public awareness regarding Canada's current nuclear policies.

 

[nonlnear]

In fact Canada helped more countries making bombs than the whole nuclear industry together.
http://www.ccnr.org/index.html#dir

Selling Plutionium != making nuclear weapons.

 

[yllus]

1. A nuclear reactor is a controlled nuclear bomb. Instead of a Megaton blast there is Mkw of instant energy generated.

Oh, nonsense. There is an enormous difference between splitting atoms in a controlled environment to generate heat (and via it, electricity) and doing so in a bomb designed to maximize destruction of everything around it. You might as well consider using electricity to light a house and to kill someone in an electric chair the same thing. (Actually, that's exactly what you're doing.)

In fact Canada helped more countries making bombs than the whole nuclear industry together.

Actually true, but certainly not in the way you're implying. Reactors provided to India and Pakistan assisted them in their weaponization of nuclear energy, but again, saying Canada "helped" other nations get the nuclear bomb is the same silliness as saying Colt Firearms "helps" criminals murder people.

 

[cave_dweller]

Oh, nonsense. There is an enormous difference between splitting atoms in a controlled environment to generate heat (and via it, electricity) and doing so in a bomb designed to maximize destruction of everything around it. You might as well consider using electricity to light a house and to kill someone in an electric chair the same thing. (Actually, that's exactly what you're doing.)

A nuclear chain reaction right? Oh yes both is a nuclear chain reaction. That nuclear core goes boom like ??????????? Chernobyl. Ask the british what happened to their meat when a Nuclear reactor without coolling went boom in the Ukraine. That was not steam.

INITIAL ACTIVITY OF RADIONUCLIDES
IN THE NUCLEAR REACTOR CORE
AT THE TIME OF THE HYPOTHETICAL ACCIDENT

Radioactive Inventory
No. Radionuclide (Source Term in curies) Half Life
== ============ ======================== ==========
1 Cobalt-58 780 thousand 10.1 weeks
2 Cobalt-60 290 thousand 5.25 years
3 Krypton-85 560 thousand 10.8 years
4 Krypton-85m 24 million 4.4 hours
5 Krypton-87 47 million 1.25 hours
6 Krypton-88 68 million 2.8 hours
7 Rubidium-86 26 thousand 2.67 weeks
8 Strontium-89 94 million 7.4 weeks
9 Strontium-90 3 million 700 thousand 30.2 years
10 Strontium-91 110 million 9.7 hours
11 Yttrium-90 390 thousand 2.67 days
12 Yttrium-91 120 million 8.4 weeks
13 Zirconium-95 150 million 9.3 weeks
14 Zirconium-97 150 million 17.0 hours
15 Niobium-95 150 million 5.0 weeks
16 Molybdenum-99 160 million 2.8 days
17 Technetium-99m 140 million 6.0 hours
18 Ruthenium-103 110 million 5.64 weeks
19 Ruthenium-105 72 million 4.44 hours
20 Ruthenium-106 25 million 1.0 years
21 Rhodium-105 49 million 1.50 days
22 Tellurium-127 5 million 900 thousand 9.38 hours
23 Tellurium-127m 1 million 100 thousand 15.6 weeks
24 Tellurium-129 31 million 1.15 hours
25 Tellurium-129m 5 million 300 thousand 8.16 hours
26 Tellurium-131m 13 million 1.25 days
27 Tellurium-132 120 million 3.25 days
28 Antimony-127 6 million 100 thousand 3.88 days
29 Antimony-129 33 million 4.30 hours
30 Iodine-131 85 million 8.05 days
31 Iodine-132 120 million 2.30 hours
32 Iodine-133 170 million 21.0 hours
33 Iodine-134 190 million 53 minutes
34 Iodine-135 150 million 6.72 hours
35 Xenon-133 170 million 5.28 days
36 Xenon-135 34 million 9.2 hours
37 Cesium-134 7 million 500 thousand 2.05 years
38 Cesium-136 3 million 13.0 days
39 Cesium-137 4 million 700 thousand 30.1 years
40 Barium-140 160 million 12.8 days
41 Lanthanum-14 0 160 million 1.67 days
42 Cerium-141 150 million 4.6 weeks
43 Cerium-143 130 million 1.38 days
44 Cerium-144 85 million 40.6 weeks
45 Praseodymium-143 130 million 13.7 days
46 Neodymium-147 60 million 11.1 days
47 Neptunium-239 1 billion 640 million 2.35 days
48 Plutonium-238 57 thousand 89.0 years
49 Plutonium-239 21 thousand 24,000 years
50 Plutonium-240 21 thousand 6,571 years
51 Plutonium-241 3 million 400 thousand 14.6 years
52 Americium-241 1 thousand 7 hundred 410.7 years
53 Curium-242 500 thousand 23.3 weeks
54 Curium-244 23 thousand 18.1 years

Stop controlling that and see what happens

First, the energy per fission is very large. In practical units, the fission of 1 kg (2.2 lb) of uranium-235 releases 18.7 million kilowatt-hours as heat. Second, the fission process initiated by the absorption of one neutron in uranium-235 releases about 2.5 neutrons, on the average, from the split nuclei. The neutrons released in this manner quickly cause the fission of two more atoms, thereby releasing four or more additional neutrons and initiating a self-sustaining series of nuclear fissions, or a chain reaction, which results in continuous release of nuclear energy.


You get fission bombs and fission fusion fission bombs. A fission bomb is the one that was used at Nagasaki. Now switch of the cooling of a nuclear reactor and see what happens to your nonsense splitting of atoms which everyone learned in grade school. Yes we know two blokes split a Atom. Anything else useful to add and state a valued argument? You know you get different type of reactors. Variety of reactor types, characterized by the type of fuel, moderator, and coolant used. Lastly power gets generated from steam but the reactor core is heated to about 325° C (about 620° F). What about the LMFBR reactor running at a cool 900 degree centigrade.

An H-bomb is a three-stage weapon: fission, fusion, and then fission again. The first stage, called the "trigger" , is a small plutonium bomb similar to the one dropped on Nagasaki in 1945. The energy release at this stage is mainly due to nuclear fission

Actually true, but certainly not in the way you're implying. Reactors provided to India and Pakistan assisted them in their weaponization of nuclear energy, but again, saying Canada "helped" other nations get the nuclear bomb is the same silliness as saying Colt Firearms "helps" criminals murder people.

So you say documented reports are half true?
http://www.ccnr.org/index.html#dir

 

[yllus]

If you're not going to participate in reasonable dialogue, I'm not going to bother spending time trying to make sense of your largely off topic posts.

 

[airdata]

Israel is not under any agreement with the IAEA for inspections. Unlike Iran

Yeah, they lied about having nukes for years and years while they secretly developed them w\ stolen technology, etc...

And here they are threatening to use them over the past couple years.


They're doing exactly what we're accusing these other guys of doing as pretext for war LOL LOL

You really cannot make this shit up. And now they're going to bar the UN from entering their country? ORLY?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Yeah, they lied about having nukes for years and years while they secretly developed them w\ stolen technology--really???, etc...did they---you are very misinformed!! In fact you are making this up....popular opinion is that the United States gave Israel thye technology or for that matter even the bomb...if they have nuclear capability at all...

And here they are threatening to use them over the past couple years. -- Israel has never threatened to use nuclear weapons. --really -- link please....
It has been widely assummed that in the event of an attack of such magnitude that the nation of aisrael would be wiped off the face of the earth that they would use nuclear wepons if they had them as a last ditch response!!


They're doing exactly what we're accusing these other guys of doing as pretext for war LOL LOL -- no but your fantasies are interesting!!

You really cannot make this shit up. And now they're going to bar the UN from entering their country? ORLY?--- actually you can and did make it up!!

So are you another one of these people who cannot back up what they say with links or are you a lack of links person!!

You do have a vivid imagination!!

 

[Karl Agathon]

I'm not aware of Japan or South Korea manufacturing nuclear weapons. Could you provide sources?

I personally think SK and escpecially Japan should have a nuclear deterent against their very belligerent nuclear neighbors. Another thread for another day perhaps.

 

[Lemon law]

When we get down to it, Israel is learning a very bad habit. As Israel manages to avoid international oversight once again. As past and current Israeli behavior IMHO is quite outrageous.

But we can ask, what will happen to Israel when they finally get called into account. Its easy to violate Godwins law and point out Nazi Germany got away all kinds of land grabs
starting with Austria and the French Ruhr, and progressing to Sunderland and other places. And when Chamberland made one more concession, Hitler proclaimed it was his last land grab. Image the Hitler surprise when the world went ballistic when Germany and Russia did it again and agreed to grub up Poland. And suddenly it was the last Hitler straw and WW2 was on. Similarly Italy and Japan on a similar tear since 1920. As the world international arbiter was a the League of Nations that as basically that never was creditable without the USA.

But why limit the examples to be cited to only WW2 when the sense of international power has always existed in the distant past and will always continue to exist into the future. As its almost comical that Israel looks at the concept of Masada as a glorious moment in Israeli history. For a brief period before the Birth of Jesus Christ, Israel engineered an alliance with Roman empire and got some regional autonomy and security as a result. But when some Israeli nuts occupied Masada. and thumbed their nose at Roman power, Israeli leadership got on the last Roman nerve, and the punishment for that Israeli over reaching, was the second diaspora that resulted that effectively resulted in Jews being almost totally missing in Israel for 1800 years plus. Later on Rome over reached too, and a New Christian religion over reached too. But not before Europe descended into a thousand year period Feudalism. As local strongmen, aka nobility, sub divided all of Europe into tiny units. Later on the kings of various European nations finally gained hegemony, as the power of petty nobility was broken. And as various European kings over reached too. The rise of international commerce and the Merchant class responded with democracy and soon European Kings found their heads rolling into baskets. And as the one Catholic church over reached too, they too lost their dominance to the new rising force of protestants, tore Europe apart with religious wars. As I have failed to note the rising force of European colonialism that lasted for 500 years. As we are now living in a post colonial world.

As we can also look at post WW2. changes and also international war crimes. As England got the boot from India, in a occupation that lasted 300 years, the South African apartheid system that lasted for a 100 years or more died without a whimper, as the world keeps changing at an ever accelerating pace, But when we look at the UN record and war crimes, the UN has a far mixed record. On one hand the UN and the international community record is almost descent, as the war criminals in Bosnia, Rhowanda, Iraq, and Charles Taylor and many others have are sitting in the Hague, but on the other hand waiting for 15 years is totally justice delayed is justice denied.

As Israel also faces formal war crime charges for its rape of Gaza, and IMHO should also face war crimes charges for its rape of Lebanon. As I also may advocate the USA in the persons of GWB, Dick Cheney, and arguably Barack Obama may join that war crimes list in the near future.

But as we look at the almost infinitely long list of nations that got away with bullshit, why should Israelis assume that they will never overreach or keep getting away with their conduct.

 

[cybrsage]

1. A nuclear reactor is a controlled nuclear bomb. Instead of a Megaton blast there is Mkw of instant energy generated.

No, it really is not. What is the difference between a fast and a slow neutron? U-235 vs U-238? While there are a very vew fast neutron reactors, they are outliers. You do not find slow fission weapons.

As another note, the placement of the fissionable material in a nuclear reactor is such that it can NEVER explode as a nuclear explosion. You can have steam explosions, yes, but NEVER a nuclear explosion. Simply impossible.

 

[chucky2]

When we get down to it, Israel is learning a very bad habit. As Israel manages to avoid international oversight once again. As past and current Israeli behavior IMHO is quite outrageous.

snip

But as we look at the almost infinitely long list of nations that got away with bullshit, why should Israelis assume that they will never overreach or keep getting away with their conduct.

1.) No one cares about the "Palestinians" enough to go to war with Israel again because they know what will happen.

2.) No one hates the Jews enough to go to war against them that would have any hopes of winning.

3.) The UN is a complete and utter joke in these matters.

These things add up to Israel doing whatever she wants in regards to her "Palestinian" problem. Their 'Final Solution' is going to be, do what's best for Israel, F the "Palestinians", and short of wholesale slaughter, will keep taking what Israel needs when Israel needs it. "Palestinians" rotting away? OK? Rotting away for the next <x> years? OK?

Get it yet?

As Israel also faces formal war crime charges for its rape of Gaza, and IMHO should also face war crimes charges for its rape of Lebanon. As I also may advocate the USA in the persons of GWB, Dick Cheney, and arguably Barack Obama may join that war crimes list in the near future.

Keep dreaming (well, dreaming for you, delusional for the rest of us), this will never happen. Ever. Bush could go to Iraq, shoot a Muslim in the face with a .45, and still not face 'war crimes'. He might have a hard time making it out of Iraq, but, he'd not a thing to worry about. If Muslims want to try someone for the killing in Iraq, they can just try themselves, since they're the ones that did the vast majority of the killing there. Bummer for ya, I know....

Chuck

 

[Orignal Earl]

Originally Posted by airdata
Yeah, they lied about having nukes for years and years while they secretly developed them w\ stolen technology--really???, etc...did they---you are very misinformed!! In fact you are making this up....popular opinion is that the United States gave Israel thye technology or for that matter even the bomb...if they have nuclear capability at all...

And here they are threatening to use them over the past couple years. -- Israel has never threatened to use nuclear weapons. --really -- link please....
It has been widely assummed that in the event of an attack of such magnitude that the nation of aisrael would be wiped off the face of the earth that they would use nuclear wepons if they had them as a last ditch response!!


They're doing exactly what we're accusing these other guys of doing as pretext for war LOL LOL -- no but your fantasies are interesting!!

You really cannot make this shit up. And now they're going to bar the UN from entering their country? ORLY?--- actually you can and did make it up!!

Where's your links Jedi?

No one knows for sure if Israel has nukes or not.

And if anyone really helped them out to acquire them it would of been France or Britain, defiantly not the US
The US did not really start supporting Israel until more recently as the money flow to your politicians increased

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel

 

[JEDIYoda]

Where's your links Jedi?

The link you posted begins like this -- Israel is widely believed to be the sixth country in the world to have developed nuclear weapons[5] and to be one of four nuclear-armed countries not recognized as a Nuclear Weapons State by the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), the others being India, Pakistan and North Korea.[6] Former International Atomic Energy Agency Director General Mohamed ElBaradei regarded Israel as a state possessing nuclear weapons,[7] but Israel maintains a policy known as "nuclear ambiguity" (also known as "nuclear opacity").[8][9] Israel has never officially admitted to having nuclear weapons, instead repeating over the years that it would not be the first country to "introduce" nuclear weapons to the Middle East, leaving ambiguity as to whether it means it will not create, will not disclose, will not make first use of the weapons or possibly some other interpretation of the phrase.[10] The "not be the first" formulation goes back to before March 11 1965, when a cable from the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv to Washington noted "The Government of Israel has reaffirmed that Israel will not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons into the Arab-Israel area."[11] Israel has refused to sign the NPT despite international pressure to do so, and has stated that signing the NPT would be contrary to its national security interests.[12] --- Which supports my premise to Airdata...you really need to read what is posted and discern who posted what....

No one knows for sure if Israel has nukes or not.

And if anyone really helped them out to acquire them it would of been France or Britain, defiantly not the US
The US did not really start supporting Israel until more recently as the money flow to your politicians increased

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel

Lets look at what i said -- which is bolded in black...
Originally Posted by airdata
Yeah, they lied about having nukes for years and years while they secretly developed them w\ stolen technology--really???, etc...did they---you are very misinformed!! In fact you are making this up....popular opinion is that the United States gave Israel the technology or for that matter even the bomb...if they have nuclear capability at all...

And here they are threatening to use them over the past couple years. -- Israel has never threatened to use nuclear weapons. --really -- link please....
It has been widely assummed that in the event of an attack of such magnitude that the nation of aisrael would be wiped off the face of the earth that they would use nuclear wepons if they had them as a last ditch response!!


They're doing exactly what we're accusing these other guys of doing as pretext for war LOL LOL -- no but your fantasies are interesting!!

You really cannot make this shit up. And now they're going to bar the UN from entering their country? ORLY?--- actually you can and did make it up!!

 

[Orignal Earl]

Lets look at what i said -- which is bolded in black...
Originally Posted by airdata
Yeah, they lied about having nukes for years and years while they secretly developed them w\ stolen technology--really???, etc...did they---you are very misinformed!! In fact you are making this up....popular opinion is that the United States gave Israel the technology or for that matter even the bomb...if they have nuclear capability at all...

And here they are threatening to use them over the past couple years. -- Israel has never threatened to use nuclear weapons. --really -- link please....
It has been widely assummed that in the event of an attack of such magnitude that the nation of aisrael would be wiped off the face of the earth that they would use nuclear wepons if they had them as a last ditch response!!


They're doing exactly what we're accusing these other guys of doing as pretext for war LOL LOL -- no but your fantasies are interesting!!

You really cannot make this shit up. And now they're going to bar the UN from entering their country? ORLY?--- actually you can and did make it up!!

That's a mess

 

[JEDIYoda]

That's a mess

I know...kinda like the middle east.....