BREAKING NEWS!!!--- Israel to bar UN fact-finding team from entering

[JEDIYoda]

Can you quote me on that quote in your sig?

Why?
What Atreus21 said is much more relevant when it comes to Peace in the Middle East!

 

[Orignal Earl]

Why?
What Atreus21 said is much more relevant when it comes to Peace in the Middle East!

*Israel has created a new image of the Jew in the world - the image of a working and an intellectual people, of a people that can fight with heroism.*

There, now will you quote me

 

[Jhhnn]

Where did the bolded come from?

Jordan wanted control of the West Bank from day 1. They lost it to Israel.
It was not theirs to give in the first place.
They took it over by military conquest - exactly what people are now condemning Israel for. The only difference between the two is Jordan is Arab and Israel is not.

Incorrect. The 1948 partition of Palestine called for Jordan, what is now Israel, and Palestine to be separate entities. Partition of Palestine as shown on many maps. When a ceasefire was declared, The Jordanians, who had entered the West Bank in support of the Pals, simply remained until ejected by Israel in 1967.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanian_occupation_of_the_West_Bank_and_East_Jerusalem

Pals are, for the purposes of international travel, still Jordanian citizens to this day. They have to be citizens of some country to do so.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Incorrect. The 1948 partition of Palestine called for Jordan, what is now Israel, and Palestine to be separate entities. Partition of Palestine as shown on many maps. When a ceasefire was declared, The Jordanians, who had entered the West Bank in support of the Pals, simply remained until ejected by Israel in 1967.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanian_occupation_of_the_West_Bank_and_East_Jerusalem

Pals are, for the purposes of international travel, still Jordanian citizens to this day. They have to be citizens of some country to do so.-- not exactly true-- http://www.badil.org/en/article74/item/1569-interview1

Which passport they hold depends on what they're eligible to carry. Palestinians inside the 67 borders carry Israeli passports. Palestinians from the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem carry either Palestinian Authority passports or sometimes Jordanian passports.

really incorrect how so??

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

The Palestinian Jews were forced to form an organized defense against the Arabs Palestinians.... thus was formed the Hagana, the beginnings of the Israeli Defense Forces [IDF]. There was also a Jewish underground called the Irgun led by Menachem Begin (who later became Prime Minister of Israel). Besides fighting the Arabs, the Irgun was instrumental in driving out the pro-Arab British. Finally in 1947 the British had enough and turned the Palestine matter over to the United Nations.
The 1947 U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% of Palestine into a Jewish Palestinian State and a SECOND Arab Palestinian State (Trans-Jordan being the first) based upon population concentrations. The Jewish Palestinians accepted... the Arab Palestinians rejected. The Arabs still wanted ALL of Palestine... both east AND west of the Jordan River.

Our Palestinian Cousins started the '48 war, and in so doing released the warlike appetites of a nation of survivors, a Jewish people with no place to run, who had repressed their rage for millennia, and had now earned full title to it!

On May 14, 1948 the "Palestinian Jews" finally declared their own State of Israel and became "Israelis." On the next day, seven neighboring Arab armies... Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen... invaded Israel. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the newly declared "ISRAEL" were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews and were promised to be given all Jewish property after the victorious Arab armies won the war. The truth is that 70% of the Arab Palestinians who left in 1948 – perhaps 300,000 to 400,000 of them – never saw an Israeli soldier! They did not flee because they feared Jewish thugs, but because of a rational and reasonable calculus: the Jews will be exterminated; we will get out of the way while that messy and dangerous business goes forward, and we will return afterwards to reclaim our homes, and to inherit those nice Jewish properties as well. They guessed wrong; and the Arab Palestinians are still tortured by the residual shame of their flight. Their shame is so great because in their eyes running from Jews was like running from women. So much for the blatant lie about Jews throwing out all the [Palestinian] Arabs!

The remaining 30% either (1) saw for themselves that these Jews would fight and die for their new nation and decided to pack up and leave or (2) were driven off the land as a normal consequence of war.

When the 19 month war ended, Israel survived despite a 1% loss of its entire population! Those Arabs who did not flee became today's Israeli-Arab citizens. Those who fled became the seeds of the first wave of "Palestinian Arab refugees."

The Arab propagandists and apologists almost never mentioned that in 1948, Arab armies launched a war against a one-day-old Israel. Instead he focused on the main consequence of that war: the creation of Arab refugees, stating that Israel "war of genocide" expelled 800,000 of them. This not only disagrees with UN estimates of a bit over 400,000 refugees but also ignores the fact that most of the Arabs/Palestinians were encouraged to leave by the Arab World itself!

The end result of the 1948-49 Israeli War of Independence was the creation of a Jewish State slightly larger than that which was proposed by the 1947 United Nations Resolution 181. What remained of that almost-created second Arab Palestinian State was gobbled up by (1) Egypt (occupying the Gaza Strip) and by (2) Trans-Jordan (occupying Judea-Samaria (a.k.a. the "West Bank" of the Jordan River) and Jerusalem. In the next year (1950) Trans-Jordan formally merged this West Bank territory into itself and granted all those "Palestinian" Arabs living there Jordanian citizenship. Since Trans-Jordan was then no longer confined to one side of the Jordan River, it renamed itself simply "Jordan." In the final analysis, the Arabs of Palestine ended up with nearly 85% of the original territory of Palestine... called Jordan but in reality their ARAB "Palestinian state! But that was still not 100% and thus the conflict between Arab and Jew for "Palestine" would continue through four more wars and continuous Arab terrorist attacks upon the Israeli citizenry. It continues to this very day.
From 1949-67 when all of Judea-Samaria [West Bank & Jerusalem] and Gaza ... were 100% under Arab [Jordanian & Egyptian] control, no effort was EVER made to create a second Palestinian State for the Arabs living there. Surely you do not expect Israel to now provide these same Arabs with their own country when their fellow Arabs failed to do so! And isn't it curious how Arafat and his PLO (formed in 1964) discovered their "ancient" identity and a need for "self-determination" and "human dignity" on this very same West Bank ONLY AFTER Israel regained this territory (three years later in 1967) following Jordan's attempt attempt to destroy Israel! Why was no request ever made upon King Hussein of Jordan by the Arabs living on the West Bank when he occupied it? Is it logical that the PLO was formed in 1964 to regain the lands they would lose three years later in 1967? This sort of logic makes sense only to those who who have not learned that the PLO was formed to DESTROY Israel. And that is STILL their goal! A cosmetic name change from PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) to PA (Palestinian Authority) does not change the stripes on THIS tiger!

 

[Lemon law]

Whomever said it, we have that somewhat false statement of, "*Israel has created a new image of the Jew in the world - the image of a working and an intellectual people, of a people that can fight with heroism.*"

Or is Israel simply recreating the old image of Jew that was the basis of European antisemitism since time immemorial. As a few well placed Jews, banker types like the Rothchilds, enriched themselves at the expense of everyone in the society. As the average Jews were as poverty stricken as anyone else. As a very few well placed Jews were able to steal everything that that was not nailed down.

Look inside Israel itself, as the same social problems are now happening, as the Jewish rich get richer and the poor Jews get poorer. And now housing prices skyrocket for Jews and non-jews, ultra Orthodox Jews refuse to work and demand they be subsidized by the State, while they demand to be the arbiters of who is a jew, both inside and outside of Israel as that Israeli definition becomes ever more exclusive.

As far as most countries in the world, they have no problem with Jews sticking up for their human rights, but when Jews act like bank robbers and run roughshod over the human rights of others, the current Israel government only confirms a new rising tide of world antisemitism.

Even for the US and the EU, unconditionally supporting only the current government of Israel has long ago outlived its rationality. As now Israel tries to drag the USA into a war in the mid-east. And also demand we free an Israeli spy named Pollard while at the same time Israel is selling US nuclear technology to China.

 

[Jhhnn]

Obviously, JediYoda, Palestinian people who were living in Israel itself after the ceasefire in 1948 are second class Israeli citizens- it was part of the deal. Not that the Israelis wanted them, but were rather stuck with them- the price of peace.

You have the nerve to quote that raving paranoid lunacy as a historical source? Really?

Do yourself a favor, wait for instructions from the mothership before posting such drivel, OK?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Obviously, JediYoda, Palestinian people who were living in Israel itself after the ceasefire in 1948 are second class Israeli citizens- it was part of the deal. Not that the Israelis wanted them, but were rather stuck with them- the price of peace.

You have the nerve to quote that raving paranoid lunacy as a historical source? Really?

Do yourself a favor, wait for instructions from the mothership before posting such drivel, OK?

At least JediYoda is providing links. All we are getting from you, Jhhnn, is a lot of handwaving hyperbole and nothing in the way of substantiating your claims.

The Palestinians in Israel are second class citizens? Odd then that every poll of Israeli Arabs has shown that they prefer to continue living in Israel and are opposed to joining any future Palestinian State, should one ever be formed. Even if they aren't treated as exact equals of Israeli Jews they still know they are treated far better than they would be in any neighboring Arab country.

 

[Jhhnn]

At least JediYoda is providing links. All we are getting from you, Jhhnn, is a lot of handwaving hyperbole and nothing in the way of substantiating your claims.

The Palestinians in Israel are second class citizens? Odd then that every poll of Israeli Arabs has shown that they prefer to continue living in Israel and are opposed to joining any future Palestinian State, should one ever be formed. Even if they aren't treated as exact equals of Israeli Jews they still know they are treated far better than they would be in any neighboring Arab country.

I link Wikipedia, at which point JediYoda responds with a link to a raving paranoid lunatic zionist propaganda site appropriately named "Masada", & you defend him? Really?

At which point you admit that Israeli Arabs are treated as second class, then obfuscate around it, offering apologisms.

Anything to avoid cognitive dissonance, huh?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

I link Wikipedia, at which point JediYoda responds with a link to a raving paranoid lunatic zionist propaganda site appropriately named "Masada", & you defend him? Really?

You linked Wikipedia and basically ignored much of the information provided in that same link, so it was a weak attempt to substatiate whatever claim you were trying to counter. Were you hoping people wouldn't actually read it? You were wrong about the passports too.

At which point you admit that Israeli Arabs are treated as second class, then obfuscate around it, offering apologisms.

Anything to avoid cognitive dissonance, huh?

Where was there any "apology?" Are you really so desparate to make a point, any point, that you constantly have to rely upon hyperbole? Are there cases of discrimination in Israel against their Arab population? Sure. Does that mean that those Arabs are treated as second class citizens as a rule of thumb? Of course not.

You undermine your own arguments, Jhhnn, by consistently going out to the fringe. It's really hard to take you seriously when you constantly exhibit the need to do that. Maybe that's the only real argument you have though? Is that the case?

 

[Lemon law]

At least JediYoda is providing links. All we are getting from you, Jhhnn, is a lot of handwaving hyperbole and nothing in the way of substantiating your claims.

The Palestinians in Israel are second class citizens? Odd then that every poll of Israeli Arabs has shown that they prefer to continue living in Israel and are opposed to joining any future Palestinian State, should one ever be formed. Even if they aren't treated as exact equals of Israeli Jews they still know they are treated far better than they would be in any neighboring Arab country.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As TLC is somehow confused on the terms. As there were both Arab nationals and Palestinians living inside Israel immediately after the 3/1948 declaration of UN Statehood. And even after Israel barely beat off the Arab armies post 3/1948, Israel could ill afford alienating Arab States by expelling Arab nationals. As for the powerless Palestinians, Israel robbed the indigenous Palestinians of their human rights and property.

So why prey tell TLC, why did you use the terms Arab Nationals and Palestinians as interchangeable classifications? When post 1948 Israel treated them quite differently?

But still point granted, Arab National Israeli citizens almost still enjoy first class Israeli citizenship and are economically better off, partially due to US subsidizes than their equivalents in other Arab nations.

But to some extent Israeli Arabs are living on borrowed time, as Israeli visionaries like A. Lieberman have well established plans to deport all Arab Nationals to a Palestinian State if and when such a Palestinian State is established.

But it still explains why Israeli liberals are terrified of Israeli extremism and Hamas, as Netanyuhu and Israeli settler parties busily kill off the viability of any Palestinian state. And failing a two State solution, the only remaining Israeli end possibility is to force Israel to assimilate its Palestinians with full voting rights. And then Arab nationals and Palestinians would have as many votes as Israeli Jews.

Exactly what happened to that other apartheid State of South Africa.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

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As TLC is somehow confused on the terms. As there were both Arab nationals and Palestinians living inside Israel immediately after the 3/1948 declaration of UN Statehood. And even after Israel barely beat off the Arab armies post 3/1948, Israel could ill afford alienating Arab States by expelling Arab nationals. As for the powerless Palestinians, Israel robbed the indigenous Palestinians of their human rights and property.

So why prey tell TLC, why did you use the terms Arab Nationals and Palestinians as interchangeable classifications? When post 1948 Israel treated them quite differently?

But still point granted, Arab National Israeli citizens almost still enjoy first class Israeli citizenship and are economically better off, partially due to US subsidizes than their equivalents in other Arab nations.

But to some extent Israeli Arabs are living on borrowed time, as Israeli visionaries like A. Lieberman have well established plans to deport all Arab Nationals to a Palestinian State if and when such a Palestinian State is established.

But it still explains why Israeli liberals are terrified of Israeli extremism and Hamas, as Netanyuhu and Israeli settler parties busily kill off the viability of any Palestinian state. And failing a two State solution, the only remaining Israeli end possibility is to force Israel to assimilate its Palestinians with full voting rights. And then Arab nationals and Palestinians would have as many votes as Israeli Jews.

Exactly what happened to that other apartheid State of South Africa.

Learn to read, LL. I didn't use the term "Arab nationals." I used the term "Arab Israelis" as a classification of Arabs within Israel that have Israeli citizenship. The only one confused here is you.

 

[chucky2]

snip

...And failing a two State solution, the only remaining Israeli end possibility is to force Israel to assimilate its Palestinians with full voting rights. And then Arab nationals and Palestinians would have as many votes as Israeli Jews.

Exactly what happened to that other apartheid State of South Africa.

Or, they could just keep building on disputed territory, and when needed, take more.

What makes you think Israel is going to sign itself up for wack jobs holding a majority? Please. Jewish Leadership is more crafty by far than our homegrown 4th generation social services wonders...they'll find a way to keep control - both politically and border-wise.

Chuck

 

[RedString]

You'll have to be more narrow than that. After all, democratic (or quasi-democratic) countries like Italy and Switzerland would fit your list, but they are among the biggest offenders of human rights.

Switzerland is among the biggest offenders of human rights?

What countries are you comparing this to?

Nope.

Iran is being targeted for nuclear inspections because Iran is developing nuclear technologies while other countries are not.

yeah, other countries already have them.


Seems suspicious to me. Let them investigate, then if it's un-true, back up your rebuttal with proof and why they're wrong. But ofc, most people refuse to acknowledge Israels problems. They just see it as 'Oh you're pro-palestine, or anti-semite!' and leave it at that. You say they're unable to think objectively? I say you have something in common. Like poster above stated, plenty of other councils have voiced negative opinions on the actions of Israel time and time again. But they're just pro-palestinian huh?

Focus, young Grasshopper.

The allocation of its resources has nothing to do with the presence or absence of human rights violations.

Now, answer my simple yes/no question, do you believe what goes on in Israel is more important than what goes on in Syria or Iran?

Why would it not? Israel has more impact on an international scale than either of those countries. The more impact a country has, the more important the decisions made by that country are. Isn't it obvious?

eskimospy I answered your question, yet you still have refused to answer my question. It is a simple yes/no opinion question. If you believe Israel's actions are more important than Syria or Iran's actions, then all you have to do is respond with a "yes".



Imagine you are downtown and you witness a known gay black man jaywalking, and a known straight white man running out of a bank with a sack of money and alarms blaring. You are not in a position to assist, only watch as an on-duty police officer luckily is in the area with enough time to chase after only one of the men.

Do you want the officer to chase one man over the other? And for what reason?

Both men committed crimes, therefore the police officer has the option to go after either of them without any objection from you, correct?

Wtf are you talking about? The more important and felony crime would take priority. A cop nor anyone else would stop to think about this. Where are you getting these ridiculous questions?

 

[cubby1223]

Wtf are you talking about? The more important and felony crime would take priority. A cop nor anyone else would stop to think about this. Where are you getting these ridiculous questions?

hehehe 😀

If you watched that situation unfold 47 times, and of those, 43 times the officer chooses to chase and arrest the jaywalker instead of the bank robber - as an outside observer I think you would be saying "This ain't right"

You would be pissed off if an officer pulled you over for speeding 2 over the limit while a Corvette was simultaneously racing 35 over the limit on the same stretch of road, correct?


You know the point of "ridiculous questions" is to force the acknowledgement of shared opinions between two people 😛

 

[JEDIYoda]

Obviously, JediYoda, Palestinian people who were living in Israel itself after the ceasefire in 1948 are second class Israeli citizens- it was part of the deal. Not that the Israelis wanted them, but were rather stuck with them- the price of peace.
Obviously??If thats what you believe even when confronted by others with irrefutable proof!



You have the nerve to quote that raving paranoid lunacy as a historical source? Really?-- truth hurst huh??Get use to it!!

hahahaaa

 

[cave_dweller]

Obviously, JediYoda, Palestinian people who were living in Israel itself after the ceasefire in 1948 are second class Israeli citizens- it was part of the deal. Not that the Israelis wanted them, but were rather stuck with them- the price of peace.

You have the nerve to quote that raving paranoid lunacy as a historical source? Really?

Do yourself a favor, wait for instructions from the mothership before posting such drivel, OK?

Isn't it interesting that prior to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, there was no serious movement for a Palestinian homeland? Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.

 

[cave_dweller]

Switzerland is among the biggest offenders of human rights?

What countries are you comparing this to?

yeah, other countries already have them.


Seems suspicious to me. Let them investigate, then if it's un-true, back up your rebuttal with proof and why they're wrong. But ofc, most people refuse to acknowledge Israels problems. They just see it as 'Oh you're pro-palestine, or anti-semite!' and leave it at that. You say they're unable to think objectively? I say you have something in common. Like poster above stated, plenty of other councils have voiced negative opinions on the actions of Israel time and time again. But they're just pro-palestinian huh?



Why would it not? Israel has more impact on an international scale than either of those countries. The more impact a country has, the more important the decisions made by that country are. Isn't it obvious?



Wtf are you talking about? The more important and felony crime would take priority. A cop nor anyone else would stop to think about this. Where are you getting these ridiculous questions?

Because nuclear technology are more expensive these days. Plus there is no nation in the world that has a nuclear reactor and not made nuclear weapons. Even Argentina did. What has Iran to do with Palestinians? Palestinians are arabs Iran is not. They are just muslim

 

[nonlnear]

Because nuclear technology are more expensive these days. Plus there is no nation in the world that has a nuclear reactor and not made nuclear weapons. Even Argentina did. What has Iran to do with Palestinians? Palestinians are arabs Iran is not. They are just muslim

Canada?

 

[yllus]

Canada?

Japan too, and South Korea. I guess if you consider all three nations as being under the NATO nuclear umbrella that's less impressive.

 

[Jhhnn]

Obviously??If thats what you believe even when confronted by others with irrefutable proof!

truth hurst huh??Get use to it!!

A hate filled propaganda hit piece from Masada.org is irrefutable proof?

Clearly, you live in an alternate reality, Bizzaro World.

 

[nonlnear]

Japan too, and South Korea. I guess if you consider all three nations as being under the NATO nuclear umbrella that's less impressive.

I agree there's a point along those lines to be made, but as stated cave_dweller's claim is false.

 

[cave_dweller]

Canada?

Canada helped the US made the bomb which was dropped on Japan

 

[cave_dweller]

A hate filled propaganda hit piece from Masada.org is irrefutable proof?

Clearly, you live in an alternate reality, Bizzaro World.

No. Masada got their info from the book called MYTHS OF THE MIDDLE EAST by: Joseph Farah

That was written on research and facts. Joseph Farah is Arab and a muslim btw and not Jewish. So get your facts right.

Btw In the Six-Day War, Israel captured Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem. But they didn't capture these territories from Yasser Arafat. They captured them from Jordan's King Hussein. Only after 67 they suddenly found a nacionality called Palestines. Even the PLO leader said they made it up. Those are arabs from Jordan and other arab countries basically

 

[Ninjahedge]

Would you cooperate with an investigation whose results are pre-ordained? Or are you seriously arguing that the investigation will be handled objectively?

Only if pre-ordained just means "already known" and just waiting for verification.

The sword cuts both ways on this one.

 

[cave_dweller]

Japan too, and South Korea. I guess if you consider all three nations as being under the NATO nuclear umbrella that's less impressive.

What? Japan made nuclear weapons and South Korea made it. You think they will let North Korea have them but not themselves?