Brady or Manning... A simple POLL

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold


amazing how the pats are the greatest team ever and yet, the pats are this group of waiver wire players. :roll:


the arguement you have is, belicheck is >>>>> than tony dungy.

belicheck gets more out of players offense and defense than any other coach in history.

is it because he cheats, maybe, but give credit due where it is due, he is amazing.

that same logic applies, is brady really that good? or is he the product of a system? in mannings case he is the system. without manning the colts are a mediocre team at best. without brady, i think the pats would still be 5-1 at worst this season.

Without Brady you think the Patriots would be 5-1 AT WORST?! ROFL, ok you lost all credibility right there. Look what happened when Matt Cassele stepped in for Brady. They yanked him out in record time and put Brady back in record time because he stunk up the joint. Brady has never been a 'system' QB because the system has evolved so much and Brady has been successful in all of them. After Weiss left, they even started incorporating the Florida Gator's offensive system and Brady started flourishing under that as well. Brady has proven he can play well with ANY receivers. Has Manning proved that? HELL NO.

and you think you have any credibility with ANYONE on ATOT with regards to anything dealing with the pats? you are the biggest homer on the board.

i'm speaking much more non biased as i am not a fan of either team. i've been a falcons fan for 30 yrs and that isn't going to change now.

i didn't say that the pats would be anywhere near where they are as far as offensive scoring, i said they would win, mb not with their second string qb, but with a halfway decent qb, jeff garcia type.

plus, moss makes a qb's job much much easier. his combination of height, speed and hands makes him the best pure WR in the game ever, obviously jerry rice is the greatest wr of all time, but i'm talking just physical skills, moss has it over anyone that's played the game at his position. and no one the colts have ever had comes close to being what moss is, harrison is great (a lesser jerry rice) but he is no where, never has been, in moss's class. harrison can't change the game the way moss can. if nothing else, the height disadvantage is huge.

look at plaxico for the giants, he is an average to below average wr at best if it weren't for his height.

Yeah, height makes the difference (Matt Jones) :roll: I don't care what team you're a fan of, you've shown your own anti-Patriots bias before. Have you seen how open Harrison and Wayne gets? That's what's important. Harrison/Wayne aren't munchkins either. Brady has had to work with short AND slow receivers throughout his careers. Brady has shown he can play well with crap, mediocre, good, and elite receivers. Has Manning? No, he gets to develop chemistry to the fullest extent with the same group of receivers year in and year out. When Manning has to use retreads, then lets talk.

harrison and wayne are at best average height wr at 6'0".

and i don't see this "Have you seen how open Harrison and Wayne gets?" you are talking about either, i see pin point passess by manning.

thing is, with moss, he doesn't have to be open to be open and it doesn't have to be a pin point pass because he does have a 4" to 6" height advantage and probably a closer to 10" to 14" reach advantage when his arm length and vertical are taken into consideration.

my point is, in your attempt to make brady seem great i think you are seriously underestimating just how good randy moss really is. if you think either harrison or wayne or even the two combined is anywhere near randy moss in physical size and abilities, you have absolutely no credibility here at all.

You're on crack if you don't see how open Wayne/Harrison get... that's a product of both Athleticism and also the system they work in... they make adjustments pre and post snap based on how the defenses line up and react. Brady's best receiver (prior to this year) has been 5'9" Deion Branch and he doesn't even have elite speed (especially for his size) at 4.44 40. Just how pinpoint accurate do you have to be for THAT kind of target? Lets see Manning work with that as his #1 and #2 receivers. Just look at what Brady's receivers do AFTER they move onto new teams... if you want to see a QB elevate the play of his WR's, look no further than Brady. I have yet to see Manning do that.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Phokus
You're on crack if you don't see how open Wayne/Harrison get... that's a product of both Athleticism and also the system they work in... they make adjustments pre and post snap based on how the defenses line up and react. Brady's best receiver has been 5'9" Deion Branch and he doesn't even have elite speed (especially for his size) at 4.44 40. Just how pinpoint accurate do you have to be for THAT kind of target? Lets see Manning work with that as his #1 and #2 receivers. Just look at what Brady's receivers do AFTER they move onto new teams... if you want to see a QB elevate the play of his WR's, look no further than Brady. I have yet to see Manning do that.

your argument really is circular and comes back to the same thing.

the thing is, how was Culpepper with moss and without him, clearly moss made culpepper look better than he was.

did brady, make his wr look better, mb, he is a good qb, no one has ever denied that.

has moss made brady look better this season?

would moss make manning look better?

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Phokus
You're on crack if you don't see how open Wayne/Harrison get... that's a product of both Athleticism and also the system they work in... they make adjustments pre and post snap based on how the defenses line up and react. Brady's best receiver has been 5'9" Deion Branch and he doesn't even have elite speed (especially for his size) at 4.44 40. Just how pinpoint accurate do you have to be for THAT kind of target? Lets see Manning work with that as his #1 and #2 receivers. Just look at what Brady's receivers do AFTER they move onto new teams... if you want to see a QB elevate the play of his WR's, look no further than Brady. I have yet to see Manning do that.

your argument really is circular and comes back to the same thing.

the thing is, how was Culpepper with moss and without him, clearly moss made culpepper look better than he was.

did brady, make his wr look better, mb, he is a good qb, no one has ever denied that.

has moss made brady look better this season?

would moss make manning look better?

Gosh, that's a really good question... funny how during Daunte's best year (2004), Moss had pedestrian numbers and didn't even play a full season:

http://www.pro-football-refere...m/players/CulpDa00.htm

http://www.pro-football-refere...m/players/MossRa00.htm

The only one with a circular argument is you. Brady has proven it multiple times that he can work with just about ANY receiver and elevate their game. Manning hasn't.

/thread.

 

[Homerboy]

Favre
/me ducks

 

[Shlong]

Brady has never put up gaudy stats (up until this season) like Manning has put up consistently season after season. Peyton has 2 MVPs and 1 ring, Brady has 3 rings but imo Brady had great defensive talent Teddy Bruschi, Ty Law, Willie McGinest, Lawyer Milloy, Rodney Harrison, Richard Seymour, etc. & decent offensive talent during the run. Brady always had a great offensive line & some weapons like Corey Dillon (a 1635 yard rushing season w/ the Pats), Antowain Smith (couple 1000 yard seasons), Deion Branch, David Patten, Troy Brown. The time when Peyton had a good defense he wins a ring. Pure QB Talent I would give it to Peyton, QB Clutch factor I would give it to Brady... you can't lose with either choice but if it came down to fantasy stats over their careers on my fantasy team I would take Manning, but for my QB on my team I would take Brady.

 

[five40]

I voted for Manning. Now I think they are both great QB's...by far the two best in the league. Why I went with Manning...he is a more accurate passer, calls his own plays most of the time, and he does a better job of turning no-namers into something pretty good. This whole thing is like comparing a Lamborghini and a Ferrari, but to me the only thing Brady has over Manning is how good he is in the clutch. Brady has had much much better overall teams than Manning so this isn't a great comparison IMO. If you put either Manning or Brady on the Dolphins, Raiders, or some other crap team that doesn't mean either are bad QB's or one is better than the other, it's just that their team completely sucks. It's like saying Brad Johnson is as good as Manning because he has the same number of Superbowl Rings, or that Brad Johnson is better than Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, etc... because he has more rings then them. In any case, I watch my fair share of both QB's and Manning seems to hit his receivers in perfect stride a majority of the time while Brady does it not as frequently. I've seen Brady overthrow and underthrow Moss multiple times, then hit him with a perfect OMG WTF pass. And again I think both are GREAT QB's just I think Manning is the better QB. I'd go crazy if my bears got either QB and I think so would any other team in the league.

 

[paulxcook]

Originally posted by: Phokus

Brady has proven it multiple times that he can work with just about ANY receiver and elevate their game. Manning hasn't.

/thread.

Harrison had 64 receptions for 836 yards and 8 TDs in '96, 73 for 866 and 6 TDs in '97. Played 16 games both seasons.

Manning is drafted and immediately starts in '98, and Harrison goes 59 for 776 with 7 TDs in 12 games.

Starting in 1999, Harrison never has fewer than 1100 yards or 10 TDs in a season., regularly gaining 1500+ yards per season.

Other than his one healthy year with the Colts in 2004, Brandon Stokley only had one season with more than 500 yards receiving. It was 2005, also with the Colts, but he was hurt off and on all season. His one healthy year with Manning, he caught 68 for 1077 and 10 TDs.

Wayne has never had anyone but Manning throwing to him, so who knows how well he'd do with another QB throwing to him.

Manning has elevated the play of some. The difference is that the Colts chose to draft weapons for him, whereas the Pats* decided to give Brady average, better than average, or bargain bin receivers until this year.

As I said in the other thread, they're 1a and 1b, comparing them is stupid, their circumstances have been very different, and there will never be an objective conclusion other than "they're both good".

 

[zinfamous]

They're both great, of course. I think Manning is far more talented, knowledgeable abotu the game, though. Brady seems like one of those QBs that excels around other talented players--the better people around him are, the better he looks.

Manning is a guy that makes mediocre players look good. The Patriots would be even better if they had Manning at the helm (yes, hard to imagine). Manning can do everything (and he seems to make more of his own decisions than does Brady). Brady is extremely good at doing what he's supposed to do

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: paulxcook

Originally posted by: Phokus

Brady has proven it multiple times that he can work with just about ANY receiver and elevate their game. Manning hasn't.

/thread.

Harrison had 64 receptions for 836 yards and 8 TDs in '96, 73 for 866 and 6 TDs in '97. Played 16 games both seasons.

Manning is drafted and immediately starts in '98, and Harrison goes 59 for 776 with 7 TDs in 12 games.

Starting in 1999, Harrison never has fewer than 1100 yards or 10 TDs in a season., regularly gaining 1500+ yards per season.

Other than his one healthy year with the Colts in 2004, Brandon Stokley only had one season with more than 500 yards receiving. It was 2005, also with the Colts, but he was hurt off and on all season. His one healthy year with Manning, he caught 68 for 1077 and 10 TDs.

Wayne has never had anyone but Manning throwing to him, so who knows how well he'd do with another QB throwing to him.

Manning has elevated the play of some. The difference is that the Colts chose to draft weapons for him, whereas the Pats* decided to give Brady average, better than average, or bargain bin receivers until this year.

As I said in the other thread, they're 1a and 1b, comparing them is stupid, their circumstances have been very different, and there will never be an objective conclusion other than "they're both good".

Except we're debating who is number 1 vs. number 2, we're not debating whether Manning is a crappy QB vs. the number 1 QB. Nobody is going to argue that Manning isn't an elite QB. Harrison still put up very good numbers with an aging Jim Harbaugh at the Helm. edit: Also, you have to consider that it takes most receivers 2 to 3 years after entering the league to play to their potential in the NFL... Marvin had a couple of years to get acclimated as a receiver before Manning came in. The point is, the Patriots had faith that TB would excel even though they didn't focus on giving him great or even good receivers (until this year) and wouldn't pay to keep his receivers around who had experience within the system. Asking a QB to work with different WR's all the time is a very difficult thing to ask your QB to do, but Brady proved he could do it. The Colt's philosphy was that they needed to give Manning everything he wanted in order to win games and they had faith that Tony Dungy could take mediocre players on defense and help them overachieve with Dungy's system to win in the postseason.

 

[paulxcook]

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: paulxcook

Originally posted by: Phokus

Brady has proven it multiple times that he can work with just about ANY receiver and elevate their game. Manning hasn't.

/thread.

Harrison had 64 receptions for 836 yards and 8 TDs in '96, 73 for 866 and 6 TDs in '97. Played 16 games both seasons.

Manning is drafted and immediately starts in '98, and Harrison goes 59 for 776 with 7 TDs in 12 games.

Starting in 1999, Harrison never has fewer than 1100 yards or 10 TDs in a season., regularly gaining 1500+ yards per season.

Other than his one healthy year with the Colts in 2004, Brandon Stokley only had one season with more than 500 yards receiving. It was 2005, also with the Colts, but he was hurt off and on all season. His one healthy year with Manning, he caught 68 for 1077 and 10 TDs.

Wayne has never had anyone but Manning throwing to him, so who knows how well he'd do with another QB throwing to him.

Manning has elevated the play of some. The difference is that the Colts chose to draft weapons for him, whereas the Pats* decided to give Brady average, better than average, or bargain bin receivers until this year.

As I said in the other thread, they're 1a and 1b, comparing them is stupid, their circumstances have been very different, and there will never be an objective conclusion other than "they're both good".

Except we're debating who is number 1 vs. number 2, we're not debating whether Manning is a crappy QB vs. the number 1 QB. Nobody is going to argue that Manning isn't an elite QB. Harrison still put up very good numbers with an aging Jim Harbaugh at the Helm. edit: Also, you have to consider that it takes most receivers 2 to 3 years after entering the league to play to their potential in the NFL... Marvin had a couple of years to get acclimated as a receiver before Manning came in. The point is, the Patriots had faith that TB would excel even though they didn't focus on giving him great or even good receivers (until this year) and wouldn't pay to keep his receivers around who had experience within the system. Asking a QB to work with different WR's all the time is a very difficult thing to ask your QB to do, but Brady proved he could do it. The Colt's philosphy was that they needed to give Manning everything he wanted in order to win games and they had faith that Tony Dungy could take mediocre players on defense and help them overachieve with Dungy's system to win in the postseason.

Where did I argue that Manning wasn't a crappy QB? No one has said that, so I don't need to argue against it. You said he hasn't proven he can elevate anyone's play, and I was showing you where you were wrong. He hasn't had to deal with a revolving WR door like Brady, so that is a poor argument, because there isn't a direct comparison.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Phokus
You're on crack if you don't see how open Wayne/Harrison get... that's a product of both Athleticism and also the system they work in... they make adjustments pre and post snap based on how the defenses line up and react. Brady's best receiver has been 5'9" Deion Branch and he doesn't even have elite speed (especially for his size) at 4.44 40. Just how pinpoint accurate do you have to be for THAT kind of target? Lets see Manning work with that as his #1 and #2 receivers. Just look at what Brady's receivers do AFTER they move onto new teams... if you want to see a QB elevate the play of his WR's, look no further than Brady. I have yet to see Manning do that.

your argument really is circular and comes back to the same thing.

the thing is, how was Culpepper with moss and without him, clearly moss made culpepper look better than he was.

did brady, make his wr look better, mb, he is a good qb, no one has ever denied that.

has moss made brady look better this season?

would moss make manning look better?

Gosh, that's a really good question... funny how during Daunte's best year (2004), Moss had pedestrian numbers and didn't even play a full season:

http://www.pro-football-refere...m/players/CulpDa00.htm

http://www.pro-football-refere...m/players/MossRa00.htm

The only one with a circular argument is you. Brady has proven it multiple times that he can work with just about ANY receiver and elevate their game. Manning hasn't.

/thread.

and yet, even the season you link to, culpeppers numbers drop when moss is out weeks 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11.

 

[Pugnax]

Originally posted by: five40
I voted for Manning. Now I think they are both great QB's...by far the two best in the league. Why I went with Manning...he is a more accurate passer, calls his own plays most of the time, and he does a better job of turning no-namers into something pretty good. This whole thing is like comparing a Lamborghini and a Ferrari, but to me the only thing Brady has over Manning is how good he is in the clutch. Brady has had much much better overall teams than Manning so this isn't a great comparison IMO. If you put either Manning or Brady on the Dolphins, Raiders, or some other crap team that doesn't mean either are bad QB's or one is better than the other, it's just that their team completely sucks. It's like saying Brad Johnson is as good as Manning because he has the same number of Superbowl Rings, or that Brad Johnson is better than Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, etc... because he has more rings then them. In any case, I watch my fair share of both QB's and Manning seems to hit his receivers in perfect stride a majority of the time while Brady does it not as frequently. I've seen Brady overthrow and underthrow Moss multiple times, then hit him with a perfect OMG WTF pass. And again I think both are GREAT QB's just I think Manning is the better QB. I'd go crazy if my bears got either QB and I think so would any other team in the league.

hmm.. I guess you missed when JR Redmond and Troy Brown helped defeat the greatest show on turf in 2002...I'd say Marvin, Reggie, Brandon and co..were just a bit better.

As far as accuracy, Manning may be better but only marginally...Brady has been lights out this year.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Pugnax

Originally posted by: five40
I voted for Manning. Now I think they are both great QB's...by far the two best in the league. Why I went with Manning...he is a more accurate passer, calls his own plays most of the time, and he does a better job of turning no-namers into something pretty good. This whole thing is like comparing a Lamborghini and a Ferrari, but to me the only thing Brady has over Manning is how good he is in the clutch. Brady has had much much better overall teams than Manning so this isn't a great comparison IMO. If you put either Manning or Brady on the Dolphins, Raiders, or some other crap team that doesn't mean either are bad QB's or one is better than the other, it's just that their team completely sucks. It's like saying Brad Johnson is as good as Manning because he has the same number of Superbowl Rings, or that Brad Johnson is better than Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, etc... because he has more rings then them. In any case, I watch my fair share of both QB's and Manning seems to hit his receivers in perfect stride a majority of the time while Brady does it not as frequently. I've seen Brady overthrow and underthrow Moss multiple times, then hit him with a perfect OMG WTF pass. And again I think both are GREAT QB's just I think Manning is the better QB. I'd go crazy if my bears got either QB and I think so would any other team in the league.

hmm.. I guess you missed when JR Redmond and Troy Brown helped defeat the greatest show on turf in 2002...I'd say Marvin, Reggie, Brandon and co..were just a bit better.

As far as accuracy, Manning may be better but only marginally...Brady has been lights out this year.

well, isn't marginality kind of the point of the discussion? obviously we aren't comparing brady to ELI Manning (who is not anywhere near the most accurate passer in the league).

i'd have to say most of the differences between brady and peyton are marginal.

 

[krunchykrome]

If Brady signed with the Ravens, and our offense started performing and winning games, I would give him all the credit in the world.

 

[oznerol]

It's the 4th quarter. You are down by 1 with no timeouts and 40 seconds to go in the Super Bowl. You are on your own 20-yard line.

Ignore receivers, offensive line, and coaches. Who do you want as your QB?

Answer - Tom Brady.

 

[Casawi]

All I can go by right now is the stats and Brady has Manny beat, so I say Brady.

 

[krunchykrome]

Originally posted by: ducci
It's the 4th quarter. You are down by 1 with no timeouts and 40 seconds to go in the Super Bowl. You are on your own 20-yard line.

Ignore receivers, offensive line, and coaches. Who do you want as your QB?

Answer - Tom Brady.

And Manning can't pull a team for a 4th quarter win?

Ever consider that Manning might not have as many 4th quarter comebacks because he never put his team in that position?

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: krunchykrome

Originally posted by: ducci
It's the 4th quarter. You are down by 1 with no timeouts and 40 seconds to go in the Super Bowl. You are on your own 20-yard line.

Ignore receivers, offensive line, and coaches. Who do you want as your QB?

Answer - Tom Brady.

And Manning can't pull a team for a 4th quarter win?

Ever consider that Manning might not have as many 4th quarter comebacks because he never put his team in that position?

Considering Manning's atrocious postseason performances... would you really trust Manning? He's a great regular season QB, no doubt, but when the pressure is on, i don't think i've ever seen another QB with a case of 'happy feet' quite like Manning.

 

[oznerol]

Originally posted by: krunchykrome

Originally posted by: ducci
It's the 4th quarter. You are down by 1 with no timeouts and 40 seconds to go in the Super Bowl. You are on your own 20-yard line.

Ignore receivers, offensive line, and coaches. Who do you want as your QB?

Answer - Tom Brady.

And Manning can't pull a team for a 4th quarter win?

Ever consider that Manning might not have as many 4th quarter comebacks because he never put his team in that position?

False.

Manning went 0-3 in his first 3 postseason appearances.

Brady went 6-0, including 2 super bowl titles, in his first two appearances. 3-0 as a 2nd-string QB his 2nd year as a pro.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Phokus
You're on crack if you don't see how open Wayne/Harrison get... that's a product of both Athleticism and also the system they work in... they make adjustments pre and post snap based on how the defenses line up and react. Brady's best receiver has been 5'9" Deion Branch and he doesn't even have elite speed (especially for his size) at 4.44 40. Just how pinpoint accurate do you have to be for THAT kind of target? Lets see Manning work with that as his #1 and #2 receivers. Just look at what Brady's receivers do AFTER they move onto new teams... if you want to see a QB elevate the play of his WR's, look no further than Brady. I have yet to see Manning do that.

your argument really is circular and comes back to the same thing.

the thing is, how was Culpepper with moss and without him, clearly moss made culpepper look better than he was.

did brady, make his wr look better, mb, he is a good qb, no one has ever denied that.

has moss made brady look better this season?

would moss make manning look better?

Gosh, that's a really good question... funny how during Daunte's best year (2004), Moss had pedestrian numbers and didn't even play a full season:

http://www.pro-football-refere...m/players/CulpDa00.htm

http://www.pro-football-refere...m/players/MossRa00.htm

The only one with a circular argument is you. Brady has proven it multiple times that he can work with just about ANY receiver and elevate their game. Manning hasn't.

/thread.

and yet, even the season you link to, culpeppers numbers drop when moss is out weeks 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11.

And yet, that still doesn't change the fact that Moss wasn't carrying Daunte on his shoulders, thus nullifying your previous post. This is quite a theme for you... facts and logic are like kryptonite for you or something.

 

[BUTCH1]

Originally posted by: jonmcc33

Originally posted by: BUTCH1
No, the colts OL is the main reason they won the SB last year along with JA and
a much improved D vs the run. Same goes for Brady now, yea he's completing %73
of his passes but he is getting stellar blocking up front. As for being "stacked" @ WR
the Colts have been for years and now the Pat's can finally match up. I think it's a draw,
either one would make a fine choice to build a team around..

You're kidding, right? The Colts had the 21st ranked defense last year and the 32nd ranked run defense. Much improved on what aspect?

Gotta LOL @ your comment that the OL was the main reason. If you take away Peyton Manning from that offense they go nowhere. He is the main reason that the Colts are any good, period.

The Colts haven't been stacked at WR for years. Harrison is a HOF but Wayne was made by Manning and Stokley only had one good year with the Colts. He wasn't even a factor last year.

Now look at the Patriots this year. Randy Moss was always good in Oakland but he just didn't show up at the game since he didn't care. Now that he cares he is making his usual plays. Wes Welker was amazing with the Dolphins last year and now that he has a good QB throwing to him he's on fire. Let's add Stallworth in there too.

Brady never had wideouts this good.

The 21st run defense meant nothing once the playoff started, the run D played fine in the
playoffs where it matters most. LOL all you want but you can put Jhonny f-ing Unitus back
there but if he's not getting blocking, he's not completing passes. And how does a QB "make"
a receiver?, show him how to run a route or catch a ball?. They have coaches for that. Not trying
to take anything away from PM, he played great during their SB run but the blocking of the OL
and running of JA helped give them a balanced attack missing since edge left..

 

[Cruisin1]

I honestly don't see how there is a debate here... Brady proves time and time again he is the better quarterback...

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: paulxcook

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: paulxcook

Originally posted by: Phokus

Brady has proven it multiple times that he can work with just about ANY receiver and elevate their game. Manning hasn't.

/thread.

Harrison had 64 receptions for 836 yards and 8 TDs in '96, 73 for 866 and 6 TDs in '97. Played 16 games both seasons.

Manning is drafted and immediately starts in '98, and Harrison goes 59 for 776 with 7 TDs in 12 games.

Starting in 1999, Harrison never has fewer than 1100 yards or 10 TDs in a season., regularly gaining 1500+ yards per season.

Other than his one healthy year with the Colts in 2004, Brandon Stokley only had one season with more than 500 yards receiving. It was 2005, also with the Colts, but he was hurt off and on all season. His one healthy year with Manning, he caught 68 for 1077 and 10 TDs.

Wayne has never had anyone but Manning throwing to him, so who knows how well he'd do with another QB throwing to him.

Manning has elevated the play of some. The difference is that the Colts chose to draft weapons for him, whereas the Pats* decided to give Brady average, better than average, or bargain bin receivers until this year.

As I said in the other thread, they're 1a and 1b, comparing them is stupid, their circumstances have been very different, and there will never be an objective conclusion other than "they're both good".

Except we're debating who is number 1 vs. number 2, we're not debating whether Manning is a crappy QB vs. the number 1 QB. Nobody is going to argue that Manning isn't an elite QB. Harrison still put up very good numbers with an aging Jim Harbaugh at the Helm. edit: Also, you have to consider that it takes most receivers 2 to 3 years after entering the league to play to their potential in the NFL... Marvin had a couple of years to get acclimated as a receiver before Manning came in. The point is, the Patriots had faith that TB would excel even though they didn't focus on giving him great or even good receivers (until this year) and wouldn't pay to keep his receivers around who had experience within the system. Asking a QB to work with different WR's all the time is a very difficult thing to ask your QB to do, but Brady proved he could do it. The Colt's philosphy was that they needed to give Manning everything he wanted in order to win games and they had faith that Tony Dungy could take mediocre players on defense and help them overachieve with Dungy's system to win in the postseason.

Where did I argue that Manning wasn't a crappy QB? No one has said that, so I don't need to argue against it. You said he hasn't proven he can elevate anyone's play, and I was showing you where you were wrong. He hasn't had to deal with a revolving WR door like Brady, so that is a poor argument, because there isn't a direct comparison.

Except people have been saying in this thread that Manning has taken mediocre players and made them better. Which is actually a better description of Brady than Manning because he's done it time and time again. Harrison was playing with an old Jim Harbaugh who wasn't even starting all of his games and still preformed very well as a rookie and a 2nd year WR before Manning took over.

 

[jonmcc33]

Originally posted by: BUTCH1

Originally posted by: jonmcc33

Originally posted by: BUTCH1
No, the colts OL is the main reason they won the SB last year along with JA and
a much improved D vs the run. Same goes for Brady now, yea he's completing %73
of his passes but he is getting stellar blocking up front. As for being "stacked" @ WR
the Colts have been for years and now the Pat's can finally match up. I think it's a draw,
either one would make a fine choice to build a team around..

You're kidding, right? The Colts had the 21st ranked defense last year and the 32nd ranked run defense. Much improved on what aspect?

Gotta LOL @ your comment that the OL was the main reason. If you take away Peyton Manning from that offense they go nowhere. He is the main reason that the Colts are any good, period.

The Colts haven't been stacked at WR for years. Harrison is a HOF but Wayne was made by Manning and Stokley only had one good year with the Colts. He wasn't even a factor last year.

Now look at the Patriots this year. Randy Moss was always good in Oakland but he just didn't show up at the game since he didn't care. Now that he cares he is making his usual plays. Wes Welker was amazing with the Dolphins last year and now that he has a good QB throwing to him he's on fire. Let's add Stallworth in there too.

Brady never had wideouts this good.

The 21st run defense meant nothing once the playoff started, the run D played fine in the
playoffs where it matters most. LOL all you want but you can put Jhonny f-ing Unitus back
there but if he's not getting blocking, he's not completing passes. And how does a QB "make"
a receiver?, show him how to run a route or catch a ball?. They have coaches for that. Not trying
to take anything away from PM, he played great during their SB run but the blocking of the OL
and running of JA helped give them a balanced attack missing since edge left..

Can you read? 21st overall defense and 32nd ranked run defense. How in the heck is that improved at all? Playoffs? Larry Johnson barely touched the ball. Jamal Lewis can't run anyway.

You clearly don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Deeko]

Originally posted by: Cruisin1
I honestly don't see how there is a debate here... Brady proves time and time again he is the better quarterback...

Such as when they met in 2006?