PowerEngineer
Diamond Member
- Oct 22, 2001
- 3,606
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Stats aren't that meaningful to me, since Manning plays in a more pass-happy offense.
Rings are irrelevant, too. That's just one game. Brady's TEAM has been better most of the time, but Manning definitely choked it up before last season.
So I'll take Brady.
Plus, he pokes supermodels on a regular basis, so that's a plus.
Rings are irrelevant, too. That's just one game. Brady's TEAM has been better most of the time, but Manning definitely choked it up before last season.
So I'll take Brady.
Plus, he pokes supermodels on a regular basis, so that's a plus.
Disagree.
Montana played on better teams than Marino did, simple as that. Marino was better at the QB position, period.
Put Montana on the Dolphins in Marino's place, and they don't do any better....in fact, I think they'd do worse over the years.
Put Marino on those Niner teams, and he'd be the one with multiple rings.
Same for Elway. Is anyone seriously going to say that just because Denver finally put a Superbowl-caliber team together in Elway's final two seasons, in the twilight of his career, that he's better than Marino?
Sorry, but Marino is the best, ever, IMO. Rings don't matter. A QB doesn't play defense, and the Dolphins pretty much never had a defense, or a running game while Marino was there. And he STILL racked up those ridiculous numbers.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I'm a fan of basing my opinion on actual stats.
And the way I see it, any QB who goes 6-0 in the playoffs in the first 2 full seasons of his career is a better QB than one who throws for 49 TDs in a season.
Regarding "running" an offense and calling plays - the whole 24 game-winning drives in the 4th quarter stat speaks for itself. Many of those winning drives were performed within 2 minutes, under a no-huddle offense.
Brady wins when it counts. To me, winning > passer rating. That is pretty much what this Manning vs. Brady debate comes down to anyway.
And lastly, while this thread is essentially the definition of subjectivity - I am backing arguments with actual numbers, not "because I think he's a better all-around QB". As I said, I am a Jets fan, and would very much enjoy seeing Brady break a hip or something.
:beer:
A lot of how the QB's stats wind up are determined by the YAC..case in point was the
receivers the Fin's had during the '80's the marx bros. Those guys would catch a ball in
a crossing route and were difficult to catch. Look at todays game with the sic catches
Moss made for 2 TD's, and Wesley Welker, wow, what a slot guy, how in the hell did the
Fin's management let this guy get away??.
receivers the Fin's had during the '80's the marx bros. Those guys would catch a ball in
a crossing route and were difficult to catch. Look at todays game with the sic catches
Moss made for 2 TD's, and Wesley Welker, wow, what a slot guy, how in the hell did the
Fin's management let this guy get away??.
LOL @ everyone voting for Brady. The Patriots are STACKED! Wes Welker was the steal of the off season for them, even more so than Randy Moss.
Sorry, but Peyton Manning is the reason that the Colts won the Super Bowl last year. Tom Brady is not the reason that the Patriots are so dominating this year.
Sorry, but Peyton Manning is the reason that the Colts won the Super Bowl last year. Tom Brady is not the reason that the Patriots are so dominating this year.
Cuda1447
Lifer
- Jul 26, 2002
- 11,757
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As much as I hate to say it, it appears Brady is the all around better QB. However, Manning has a better arm, IMO. Now it can be argued that Brady has scrub receivers and manning has great ones, but is that neccessarily the case? We've only seen Harrison/Wayne/Stokely on the Colts, were they appear great. Stokely goes to the Broncos and is a 3rd stringer, who knows what Wayne/Harrison would be elsewhere. I'd venture to guess Peyton has made them appear much better than they are over the years, much like Brady did with Deion Branch.
Manning.
For those who say he's always had good WRs and what not, whos to say he hasn't made his WRs who they are? Put Harrison and Wayne on another team and I wouldn't be surprised if all of the sudden they become less than stellar.
Give Manning a guy like Moss and I think he puts up numbers just as big if not bigger than Brady is right now.
Right now I think this season is very deceptive. The Pats defense isn't quite so lights out like it has been in years past (something I think could actually come to haunt them in their tougher games), thus they're encouraged to score more points. Their schedule is so ridiculously easy (especially up to this point, they'd easily be in the worst division if they weren't in it), thus scoring points isn't exactly hard. Their running game has taken a few hits, thus they're encouraged to pass far more often, especially with that insane WR corps they threw together. The video taping cheating scandal is encouraging them to prove they're legit, so they're encouraged to run up the score. Yes Brady is good, yes he's easily one of the best in the league, but I'm pretty sure this season is somewhat of a fluke with all those circumstances working so heavily in favor of producing such numbers. If his production remains constant throughout the rest of the season and all the way through the superbowl then obviously my theory will have been proven wrong, but until then I can't help but suspect.
Looking at the collective body of work I've seen so many games where Manning has had to carry his team on his back far more than Brady. Brady just fits very well into New England's scheme, but if I were to build a team from the ground up around a QB I'd take Manning.
I can't help but think that if Manning were in Brady's shoes, the Patriots would probably have 4 or 5 superbowls instead of just 3...
For those who say he's always had good WRs and what not, whos to say he hasn't made his WRs who they are? Put Harrison and Wayne on another team and I wouldn't be surprised if all of the sudden they become less than stellar.
Give Manning a guy like Moss and I think he puts up numbers just as big if not bigger than Brady is right now.
Right now I think this season is very deceptive. The Pats defense isn't quite so lights out like it has been in years past (something I think could actually come to haunt them in their tougher games), thus they're encouraged to score more points. Their schedule is so ridiculously easy (especially up to this point, they'd easily be in the worst division if they weren't in it), thus scoring points isn't exactly hard. Their running game has taken a few hits, thus they're encouraged to pass far more often, especially with that insane WR corps they threw together. The video taping cheating scandal is encouraging them to prove they're legit, so they're encouraged to run up the score. Yes Brady is good, yes he's easily one of the best in the league, but I'm pretty sure this season is somewhat of a fluke with all those circumstances working so heavily in favor of producing such numbers. If his production remains constant throughout the rest of the season and all the way through the superbowl then obviously my theory will have been proven wrong, but until then I can't help but suspect.
Looking at the collective body of work I've seen so many games where Manning has had to carry his team on his back far more than Brady. Brady just fits very well into New England's scheme, but if I were to build a team from the ground up around a QB I'd take Manning.
I can't help but think that if Manning were in Brady's shoes, the Patriots would probably have 4 or 5 superbowls instead of just 3...
No, the colts OL is the main reason they won the SB last year along with JA and
a much improved D vs the run. Same goes for Brady now, yea he's completing %73
of his passes but he is getting stellar blocking up front. As for being "stacked" @ WR
the Colts have been for years and now the Pat's can finally match up. I think it's a draw,
either one would make a fine choice to build a team around..
Gibson486
Lifer
- Aug 9, 2000
- 18,378
- 2
- 0
you have got tbe kidding me. There are some passes that Moss gets that only a really a good could QB could throw. Other QBs would have simply over threw the ball amd missed the target. You cannot tell me that Grossman could throw to Moss the same way.
Granted, I think Manning would do equally well with Moss.
Deeko
Lifer
- Jun 16, 2000
- 30,213
- 12
- 81
They are both very good QBs - head and shoulders above the rest of the league, and both going to the HOF on their first ballot.
That said, here is what I see as the difference:
Brady utilizes what he has to its fullest extent.
Manning takes what he has, and makes it much better.
Obviously Brady is doing some amazing things this year - but he's got a better receiving corps, and a better offensive line, than the Colts (at least IMO - Moss > Harrison, Wayne > Stallworth, Welker >>>> Stokely/Gonzales). When you see what Manning does with sub-par players, its pretty unreal. Even Reggie Wayne - he's good, but I don't think he would come close to the pro bowl on another team. The defense is forced to respect him so much, and is so confused by the offense he runs, that he even makes Kenton Keith look like a pro bowl running back. Plus, his knowledge if the game is unparalleled. He's another coach on the field.
I'll be honest, I know Brady is on pace to shatter Manning's 2004 records, but I don't think he'll do it. We'll see though, its like arguing Marino vs Montana...everybody wins! (except their opponents)
edit: another thing you look at is how they handle pressure. When Manning is blitzed, its a mistake - he WILL find the hot receiver even if you beat his protection. Granted, he has a very good offensive line - but the Patriots, at least this year, is much better. Brady doesn't handle the pass rush nearly as well.
That said, here is what I see as the difference:
Brady utilizes what he has to its fullest extent.
Manning takes what he has, and makes it much better.
Obviously Brady is doing some amazing things this year - but he's got a better receiving corps, and a better offensive line, than the Colts (at least IMO - Moss > Harrison, Wayne > Stallworth, Welker >>>> Stokely/Gonzales). When you see what Manning does with sub-par players, its pretty unreal. Even Reggie Wayne - he's good, but I don't think he would come close to the pro bowl on another team. The defense is forced to respect him so much, and is so confused by the offense he runs, that he even makes Kenton Keith look like a pro bowl running back. Plus, his knowledge if the game is unparalleled. He's another coach on the field.
I'll be honest, I know Brady is on pace to shatter Manning's 2004 records, but I don't think he'll do it. We'll see though, its like arguing Marino vs Montana...everybody wins! (except their opponents)
edit: another thing you look at is how they handle pressure. When Manning is blitzed, its a mistake - he WILL find the hot receiver even if you beat his protection. Granted, he has a very good offensive line - but the Patriots, at least this year, is much better. Brady doesn't handle the pass rush nearly as well.
Manning, definetly. Last year, was anyone asking this question? No, Manning was the best QB. Now that Brady has some offensive weapons, including the best WR in the NFL right now, he's considered better than Manning?...please.
Brady is definetly second, but Manning remains # 1. Manning took players and turned them into stars. Brady was given established players to work with.
Brady is definetly second, but Manning remains # 1. Manning took players and turned them into stars. Brady was given established players to work with.
Consider also the Pat's had GARBAGE WR's last year and STILL almost got a W in the
dome. Turn Reche Caldwell into a star? not even Manning is THAT patient, it has to be
MADDENING as a QB to see drop,drop, drop. Now Brady has WR's with venus flytrap
hands and it shows...
Brady has won Super Bowls over his career with a far less talented offensive unit than this year's. Besides I think most of the people voting for Brady are not basing it on just thiss year, duh.
As others have said, what Brady has done with the crap he had is amazing. It shows that he is a true leader. Manning has been babied his whole career with a much better team. I guarantee you that if you stick Manning with the crap that Brady had, he'd be far less inspiring. If Manning were so great, he'd have more rings that he does, especially considering the team he has had around him.
Manning did not start out with a great team and it took time to build it around him (3-13 his 1st year and a record for sacks given up IIRC). They finally got a D to go with the O they built and it worked out.
I don't understand how people claim Manning is better and state no actual statistics. The hypothetical "if he had xx WR he would do xx" is irrelevant.
Brady - drafted in 2000. Beat Manning and the Colts TWICE as a backup QB (44-13 and 38-17) in 2001. Super Bowl MVP in 2001. Super Bowl MVP in 2003. Super Bowl win in 2004.
6-0 in his first 2 trips to the postseason. Led two 2-minute game-winning drives in two Superbowls, one in his first season as a starter.
Manning finally won his first postseason game after 3 previous losses in the first round. And he still managed to lose to the Patriots that year. Brady is the exact opposite - he did not lose a postseason game until his 4th trip there.
Brady - drafted in 2000. Beat Manning and the Colts TWICE as a backup QB (44-13 and 38-17) in 2001. Super Bowl MVP in 2001. Super Bowl MVP in 2003. Super Bowl win in 2004.
6-0 in his first 2 trips to the postseason. Led two 2-minute game-winning drives in two Superbowls, one in his first season as a starter.
Manning finally won his first postseason game after 3 previous losses in the first round. And he still managed to lose to the Patriots that year. Brady is the exact opposite - he did not lose a postseason game until his 4th trip there.
by crap you mean that the pats D has been crap for the last 6 seasons, and that the pats O Line has been crap, and the special teams have been crap and the coaching staff has been crap?
oh, you mean just the WR's. i guess only people that catch the ball count. :roll:
You're kidding, right? The Colts had the 21st ranked defense last year and the 32nd ranked run defense. Much improved on what aspect?
Gotta LOL @ your comment that the OL was the main reason. If you take away Peyton Manning from that offense they go nowhere. He is the main reason that the Colts are any good, period.
The Colts haven't been stacked at WR for years. Harrison is a HOF but Wayne was made by Manning and Stokley only had one good year with the Colts. He wasn't even a factor last year.
Now look at the Patriots this year. Randy Moss was always good in Oakland but he just didn't show up at the game since he didn't care. Now that he cares he is making his usual plays. Wes Welker was amazing with the Dolphins last year and now that he has a good QB throwing to him he's on fire. Let's add Stallworth in there too.
Brady never had wideouts this good.
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