Boehner proposes leaving 52 Million Americans without insurance.

[pcgeek11]

The juries still out on that one.

 

[pcgeek11]

They should work on ammending it, not repealing it. They might get some where if they try to ammend it. Repealing it isn't going to happen.

This is the only option.

 

[Fear No Evil]

I have an associate who is in his 50's and has no insurance. He works in construction and doesn't get benefits. His partner (Female, but their not married) works at a job where they just changed the policy where they could use domestic partner status to get him insurance. They decided against it because it was 'still too expensive'. (I think it was in the range of $250-$300 a month).

They can definitely afford it. They are not rich by any means but they both own late model Harley Davidson's which when they purchased new were ~20k-25k each. Lets assume 45k for both of them which is probably UNDER estimating the true cost due to upgrades. $300 a month divided into that 45k and its about 12.5 years of healthcare they could have purchased but decided not to.

I am sure many of those 50 million are in the same boat. Don't tell me you can't afford healthcare when you are dropping 10's of thousands of dollars on motorcycles. Its a CHOICE they have made. His 'wife' mentioned to me at one point she can't wait until Obamacare goes into effect so he can get healthcare.. When I explained to her that he would be FORCED to buy healthcare insurance she didn't get it.. she assumed it would be paid for or silly cheap..

Meanwhile, I ride a 14 year old motorcycle thats paid off and decide to carry the best insurance my employer offers. I guess I should buy a new bike, drop insurance, and let the taxpayers take care of my bills.

 

[PeshakJang]

Thank you, and I wasn't saying it wasn't worth 250k, I was stating how much it cost 15 years ago, who knows what it costs today? And it wouldn't be government run health care, it'd be insurance companies, if I remember right, and I wouldn't be shunned for having a pre-existing condition.

The inept folks who rubber stamp 'yes' or 'no' are in the insurance offices as well. If healthcare was universal in 1995, my trouble getting help to pay for this would have been a non-issue, correct?

Well here is where the problem comes from. We want to spend whatever it takes to keep people healthy, but we also seem to think that it is a zero-sum system, for which if the demand for services goes up, the prices should go down. If it costs $250,000 for heart 1 heart surgery, people in general seem to think it should cost less than $500,000 for 2 heart surgeries. If an insurance company is paying for 10% of its customers to get diabetes treatments, costs aren't going to magically go down when it has to pay for 20% of its customers to get the treatment.

An analogy that I had a while back is that if more and more people are having to go to the doctor because they are shooting themselves in the leg, we shouldn't be yelling at the insurance company when they have to charge more to treat them... we should be figuring out how to reduce the number of people shooting themselves in the leg.

 

[ShawnD1]

The uninsured can always pay cash. I have no problem with this.

If they couldn't afford insurance, they probably don't have the cash to pay for it.

You know how people in Mexifornia are bitching about Mexicans showing up at ER with stab wounds and no insurance and they don't speak English and they never pay the damn bill? That's basically what the GOP wants. Instead of expanding insurance to cover everyone and demanding everyone pay into it, you should show up at the ER with no identification and skip out on the bill as needed.

 

[PeshakJang]

If they couldn't afford insurance, they probably don't have the cash to pay for it.

You know how people in Mexifornia are bitching about Mexicans showing up at ER with stab wounds and no insurance and they don't speak English and they never pay the damn bill? That's basically what the GOP wants. Instead of expanding insurance to cover everyone and demanding everyone pay into it, you should show up at the ER with no identification and skip out on the bill as needed.

Will that stop Mexicans from showing up with stab wounds and no insurance?

 

[ShawnD1]

Will that stop Mexicans from showing up with stab wounds and no insurance?

Sen0r Obama will have given them free citizenship and social security numbers so the ones who don't pay insurance go to jail for 30 years where they get raped by black people


ok half joking. The idea is that right now you COULD theoretically show up with no ID then just skip out on the bill. You could do that even though you really are an American citizen with a full time legit job. By forcing people to pay for insurance, there's no getting out of it. You pay some amount of money into The Machine no matter what.

And [flu symptoms] is still is NOT an Emergency. Pay up and go see a Doctor on your own dime. The Flu and Flu Like Symptoms do not belong in the ER. The ER is for Emergencies.

Fucking this. Healthcare in every country is totally crippled by idiots who try their best to ruin it for everyone. I like how my country has free health care, but people who fuck around should get extremely stiff fines for wasting hospital resources. If you show up because you're coughing and the doctors find nothing wrong with you, you should get a $2,000 fine. For people who can't pay the fine, their retirement age would be pushed back 1 year per fine until the fines are paid.

 

[Pens1566]

Anyone can afford insurance if they have their priorities in line.
A basic plan can be had for ~$100 while a plan with prescription and other benefits can be had for ~$175.

Let see,minimum wage is $7.25. Working 10 hour days at 6 days per week, that is $22,600 per year while health care expenses would be under $2,400.

Those with "pre existing conditions" only make up 3% of the population or roughly 10 million people.

Try again.

So much fail I don't know where to begin ...

 

[fskimospy]

Because for many years, we have subsidized the health care of just about every other country in the world through our R&D and technological advancements. If a drug company isn't allowed to make a profit in most of Europe, they need to make a profit in the US to cover their development expenses. We have the most advanced technology in the world in terms of health care. Countries with socialized systems prohibit companies that develop and build these systems from making enough money to be profitable, so costs have been continually shifted to US payers.

As already pointed out, costs are going up because people are living more and more unhealthy lifestyles over time, while demanding the most advanced technology and latest drugs to keep them alive longer. Too many people want to think that it is a fixed-cost system, where there is no change in supply or demand, when in reality demand continues to increase faster than supply. The more we try to artificially lower prices and continue to ignore the underlying societal health issues, the longer the problem will fester.

There is no evidence to support the idea that drug companies' operations in Europe are not profitable, all R&D expenses included. Important to remember that R&D comprises a small portion of drug company expenditures. (usually around 10-15%) Marketing on the other hand consumes about 20-40% of their budgets. The idea that these companies could not or would not continue research if the US stopped it's corporate welfare program towards drug company profits is without merit. We are subsidizing some research, but it's in the least efficient way possible. Instead of spending directly on things we want, we give the drug companies huge bags of cash and hope that they do something we like.

The reason why so much R&D goes on in the US is the generally high quality of US universities and the massive taxpayer subsidies we give to drug companies both directly through huge subsidies and also through the inexplicable decision to not allow our government to negotiate for lower drug prices like every other nation (and the VA) does.

Simply put, there is absolutely zero evidence that the US is subsidizing the low cost of health care in other countries to any meaningful degree; their socialized systems simply work better. If you or anyone else can provide credible research from a nonpartisan source that shows otherwise, I would be very happy to read it. I am unaware of ANY credible source that makes such a claim though.

As I have said many times, imagine you were shown the data as it exists now between the US and other OECD countries' health care systems, but were told the other systems were free market ones and the US was socialized. Tell me that you wouldn't be clamoring for the US to change to their system as they achieve similar health outcomes at a fraction of the cost.

On another note, it's interesting that the Republicans have complained that Obama dropped the ball when he got into power by focusing on health care instead of job creation. Now immediately upon gaining control of one house of Congress, the Republicans are attempting to revisit health care.

 

[ShawnD1]

So much fail I don't know where to begin ...

Could probably start with how Patranus thinks you're can just choose to work 60 hour weeks if you want. Right now a lot of jobs are cut lower than 35 hours just to prevent layoffs.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

I have an associate who is in his 50's and has no insurance. He works in construction and doesn't get benefits. His partner (Female, but their not married) works at a job where they just changed the policy where they could use domestic partner status to get him insurance. They decided against it because it was 'still too expensive'. (I think it was in the range of $250-$300 a month).

They can definitely afford it. They are not rich by any means but they both own late model Harley Davidson's which when they purchased new were ~20k-25k each. Lets assume 45k for both of them which is probably UNDER estimating the true cost due to upgrades. $300 a month divided into that 45k and its about 12.5 years of healthcare they could have purchased but decided not to.

I am sure many of those 50 million are in the same boat. Don't tell me you can't afford healthcare when you are dropping 10's of thousands of dollars on motorcycles. Its a CHOICE they have made. His 'wife' mentioned to me at one point she can't wait until Obamacare goes into effect so he can get healthcare.. When I explained to her that he would be FORCED to buy healthcare insurance she didn't get it.. she assumed it would be paid for or silly cheap..

Meanwhile, I ride a 14 year old motorcycle thats paid off and decide to carry the best insurance my employer offers. I guess I should buy a new bike, drop insurance, and let the taxpayers take care of my bills.

Wow, thanks

You just made a great case in support of the mandate included in the recent Healthcare bill. Your story highlights how many americans don't have the personal responsibility to take care of their own healthcare even though they have the means, and will leave the tab to the rest of us unless forced to purchase their own insurance.


Glad to see you've come around and are now a supporter of Obamacare

 

[xj0hnx]

And yet it still doesn't address the problem of cost. No politician has a clue why health care costs so much. It's not because of insurance. Insurance is a middle man, and yes they take their cut, but it does not double the cost of health care. Government is a middle man and would take their cut from a single payer system also, and we know how inefficient the federal government is, so there's likely very little savings there.

Because when I take a UA at my doctor as self pay it cost $35, when I take it under my insurance they bill $450 because the insurance will pay it. No, must be the eeeeviiill insurance corporations.

 

[her209]

Could probably start with how Patranus thinks you're can just choose to work 60 hour weeks if you want. Right now a lot of jobs are cut lower than 35 hours just to prevent layoffs.

Something tells me Patranus doesn't pay any rent, bills, or groceries.

 

[ShawnD1]

Because when I take a UA at my doctor as self pay it cost $35, when I take it under my insurance they bill $450 because the insurance will pay it. No, must be the eeeeviiill insurance corporations.

They bill that because the insurance company will lowball them.

It works the same way as Craiglist. To sell a $100 item, you list it as $200 and wait for some dickface to bid $100.

 

[theeedude]

If you have the Flu you should go see a Doctor, not an emergency room. The Flu is not an emergency unless it is untreated and progresses into an emergency as in pneumonia. If you are stupid enough to wait that long before getting treatment at a doctors office. Yeah you get what you asked for.

If you go to the ER every time you get a sniffle then you are retarded.

Oh I know get some insurance.

I have insurance, but if I was broke and didn't have it, I'd go to ER for everything, since ER doesn't ask me to pay up first.

 

[OutHouse]

Anyone can afford insurance if they have their priorities in line.
A basic plan can be had for ~$100 while a plan with prescription and other benefits can be had for ~$175.

Let see,minimum wage is $7.25. Working 10 hour days at 6 days per week, that is $22,600 per year while health care expenses would be under $2,400.

Those with "pre existing conditions" only make up 3% of the population or roughly 10 million people.

Try again.

lol, health insurance sold in a dark foggy alley from a guy wearing a trench coat. lol yea go ahead and buy that shit.

i also would love to see your sources for the 3% pre-existing condition claim. i call bullshit on that.

 

[sactoking]

As is health insurance company profit, but that doesn't stop the Democrats from wailing and gnashing their teeth about it. The problems with health care are far deeper than anyone wants to talk about.

This is correct (BoberFett was responding to someone saying lawsuits and malpractice is a small percentage of insurer costs).

As a regulator, I can comfortably say that health insurers currently generally pay out 80-82% of premiums on medical care and prescriptions drugs. Claim adjustment expense runs 2-3%. Administrative costs run 15-20%. The industry as a whole has an average combined ratio (Total of benefits/claims paid plus costs incurred versus premiums collected) of 97-105%.

That means that, in general, health insurers make 0-3% profit or lose up to 5% on insurance operations. In good years that is tempered by investment gains.

The idea that the health insurance industry is just raking in profits hand over fist at the expense of the population is completely bogus.

 

[rudder]

If they couldn't afford insurance, they probably don't have the cash to pay for it.

You know how people in Mexifornia are bitching about Mexicans showing up at ER with stab wounds and no insurance and they don't speak English and they never pay the damn bill? That's basically what the GOP wants. Instead of expanding insurance to cover everyone and demanding everyone pay into it, you should show up at the ER with no identification and skip out on the bill as needed.

okay so you give these people obamacare insurance. They still pay nothing, use it a lot more, government reimbursement rates dwindle, all the while paying for a humongous beaurocracy that is insanely complicated. Causing taxes to increase along with my healthcare insurance premiums because of all the new federal requirements imposed on insurance companies.

obamacare's cost will be subsidized for the people who are not paying taxes anyway. How about easing interstate insurance rules allowing insurance companies to sell policies nationwide? States would be pressured to ease regulations allowing for cheaper premiums... making health care more affordable... allowing more people to pay into the system.

 

[zsdersw]

This is correct (BoberFett was responding to someone saying lawsuits and malpractice is a small percentage of insurer costs).

As a regulator, I can comfortably say that health insurers currently generally pay out 80-82% of premiums on medical care and prescriptions drugs. Claim adjustment expense runs 2-3%. Administrative costs run 15-20%. The industry as a whole has an average combined ratio (Total of benefits/claims paid plus costs incurred versus premiums collected) of 97-105%.

That means that, in general, health insurers make 0-3% profit or lose up to 5% on insurance operations. In good years that is tempered by investment gains.

The idea that the health insurance industry is just raking in profits hand over fist at the expense of the population is completely bogus.

Administrative costs are too high. What can be done to bring those down?

 

[MrX8503]

My point is that bringing up the idea of having a kid to prove that insurance is unaffordable is moot point as best. On minimum wage, kids are unaffordable - fixing health insurance won't fix the economics of that.

If you're not getting health coverage from your employer, health insurance is unaffordable on min wage with a kid or not.

Because for many years, we have subsidized the health care of just about every other country in the world through our R&D and technological advancements. If a drug company isn't allowed to make a profit in most of Europe, they need to make a profit in the US to cover their development expenses. We have the most advanced technology in the world in terms of health care. Countries with socialized systems prohibit companies that develop and build these systems from making enough money to be profitable, so costs have been continually shifted to US payers.

So you're saying that we subsidize the advance tech, but yet our health care is shit?

then don't complain that a regular checkup costs $250 and bloodwork costs $1000.

What I'm saying is that those who would of gotten health insurance if it were affordable could of performed preventable measures. Saving money and lives.

They can definitely afford it. They are not rich by any means but they both own late model Harley Davidson's which when they purchased new were ~20k-25k each. Lets assume 45k for both of them which is probably UNDER estimating the true cost due to upgrades. $300 a month divided into that 45k and its about 12.5 years of healthcare they could have purchased but decided not to.

I am sure many of those 50 million are in the same boat. Don't tell me you can't afford healthcare when you are dropping 10's of thousands of dollars on motorcycles. Its a CHOICE they have made. His 'wife' mentioned to me at one point she can't wait until Obamacare goes into effect so he can get healthcare.. When I explained to her that he would be FORCED to buy healthcare insurance she didn't get it.. she assumed it would be paid for or silly cheap..

People who can afford it, will pay for it under the new healthcare reform. You said it yourself. The people you're talking about aren't living in poverty.

okay so you give these people obamacare insurance. They still pay nothing, use it a lot more, government reimbursement rates dwindle, all the while paying for a humongous beaurocracy that is insanely complicated. Causing taxes to increase along with my healthcare insurance premiums because of all the new federal requirements imposed on insurance companies.

Of the 50 million people, not all of them are getting free health insurance.

 

[Patranus]

what will happen is they will seek out those $100-$175 plans that Patranus talks about, yes I have seen them on alot of wasted fax paper advertisements, and when they try to use them they will find out how worthless they are because their is no way an insurance company can make money on plans with such low fee's considering the continual decline in Americans health along with ever increasing health care costs .

The simple fact of the matter is that Obamacare essentially outlaws plans with a low premium and high deductible. This should scare anyone who is young shitless. Now you will not be able to get a plan that only covers what you need (a la cart), rather everyone is now forced to buy a plan that includes many things free, without a copay. Somehow the "progressives" believe by mandating more services to be provided for free after your premiums are paid will bring down costs.....right....

And Patranus most minimum wage jobs limit your hours because they don't want to pay over time, so $7.25x40x52=$15,080 annually.

Get a 2nd job.

 

[rival]

Get a 2nd job.

work 2 jobs is your solution to high insurance costs for those that make minimum/poor wages?

 

[OutHouse]

Want health insurance? Then pay for it. The people have spoken, shut the fuck up communists, we don't want what you're selling. This. Is. America!!!!

/thread

I fucking told you we were coming after people that don't work or pay taxes. We're here. We are taking the country back. Fuck Obama and anybody that believes his agenda.

whos the commie?

look the repgus got the house, thats it dude. do you really think the senate who is still has a dem majority will pass anything? then you have Obama, do you really think he isnt going to whip out he veto pen?

 

[Lanyap]

They should work on ammending it, not repealing it. They might get some where if they try to ammend it. Repealing it isn't going to happen.

This. If the dems and repubs had been able to actually work on it together in a moderate environment it would have been a more positive process. I'm afraid we are going to continue to see the extreme politics on both sides.

 

[halik]

If you're not getting health coverage from your employer, health insurance is unaffordable on min wage with a kid or not.

Oh I agree with you, my point was that arguing for that with a premise of having a kid misses the mark.