Boehner proposes leaving 52 Million Americans without insurance.

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ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
Bahahahahaha. Hahahahaha. No, seriously, what are you smoking? Have you ever BEEN in the military? It's institutionalized inefficiency at it's best. $250 crutches? How about a $3000 paper shredder? It won't even shred CDs. Only paper.
Have you ever had a corporate job? My desk at work cost $10,000. My trash bin was $80 even though it's just a regular $5 Walmart trash can (black plastic, nothing fancy).


Is a type 1 diabetic with hypothyroidism a good enough reason for you?
lol that must be the worst combo ever. Giving thyroxine to diabetics often ends bad.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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I have a question for you to answer first before I make any decisions to answer yours... why are you trying to derail the topic into what I know about health care?

It's not just you so it's not personal but if you look at the number of opinions about health care reform you see few people who can say what that is. You were saying that government would be a better agency to reform it. Since you've given an opinion its reasonable to ask if you have a knowledge base (and this applies to others) of the subject to lend credibility to your viewpoint.
 

potluv

Member
Nov 3, 2010
100
0
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It's not just you so it's not personal but if you look at the number of opinions about health care reform you see few people who can say what that is. You were saying that government would be a better agency to reform it. Since you've given an opinion its reasonable to ask if you have a knowledge base (and this applies to others) of the subject to lend credibility to your viewpoint.

I think the best way to respond to your questions is to respond with another question I have for you... which would you rather have manage health care for 300+ million people, a bunch of for profit health insurance corporations, or the government?
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,651
2,933
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Useless comparisons, for the most part. The markets and competitive landscapes are different than the insurance industry in general and health insurance in particular.

Exactly why I used them. The problem with the statement you made earlier, a statement made by many people, is a blanket "costs are too high" has absolutely no frame of reference.

Let's face it, the arguments usually start with "the insurers are making money hand over fist and still raising rates". That always gets disproven. The argument then moves on to "Costs are too high". That then begs the question "Too high compared to what?"

Compare health insurers to other insurers. Costs are higher than life companies and lower than P&C companies. Boom, that's your only valid comparison.

Compare them to B of A? Health insurers are the model of efficiency. Compare them to Amazon, they're terribly inefficient. Unfortunately, many people say "Costs are too high" while looking at other industries. Well, that's subjective based on which industry you choose.

What about Medicare/Medicaid, which is so often used? Well, apart from the fact that the "2% cost" has pretty much been disproved over the years, you also face the fact that Medicare/Medicaid is about as similar to health insurance as Ford or Amazon are.

In reality non-mutual insurers are in the game to make a profit. Some do, some don't. May of the ones that do make a profit do so on the strength of their investments and not on their underwriting results. Premiums/revenues continually increase but so do claims/benefits expenses. The absolute easiest place for an insurer to scrape out additional margins is in G&A expense. Yet somehow the industry continually lands at 15-20% expense ratio while the government (notorious for its vast inefficiencies) somehow manages to be a full order of magnitude better? I don't buy that for one second.

Health care in the US is broken, plain and simple. The quality of care received here is the global leader but so is the cost. These two items do go hand-in-hand. So long as Americans demand the absolute best in medical care, medical providers will charge out the nose for it. At the same time Americans are constantly mandating that insurers, a not high margin industry, bear more and more of the cost for decreasingly lower (proportionally) premiums. What really needs to change here is Americans need to decide if they want the planet's best medical service and are willing to pay for it or if they want affordable day-to-day health care costs, because we can't have both.

Edited: I just re-read a couple other posts you made and the original admin costs post. I think I read the admin cost post as "Costs are too high. What can insurers do to reduce them?" when what you meant was "Costs are too high. What can be done by society to reduce them?". I agree that tort reform would lower costs some. What exactly do you mean by inter-state availability? I can't really comment on that until I know what you mean. I think the rest of what I said above, that admin costs are not exorbitant and whatnot, still applies but I do better understand the point you were initially trying to make.
 
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blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
lol that must be the worst combo ever. Giving thyroxine to diabetics often ends bad.

Well, hypothyroidism is very common with type 1's. It is what it is.

And thankfully, although having been a type 1 for 44 years, I have had zero complications.

http://journal.diabetes.org/clinicaldiabetes/v18n12000/Pg38.htm
Diabetic patients have a higher prevalence of thyroid disorders compared with the normal population (Table 1). Because patients with one organ-specific autoimmune disease are at risk of developing other autoimmune disorders, and thyroid disorders are more common in females, it is not surprising that up to 30% of female type 1 diabetic patients have thyroid disease. The rate of postpartum thyroiditis in diabetic patients is three times that in normal women.
 
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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
The government seems to know how to run the military just fine. Maybe thats the problem? Too much focus on running the military instead of the country?

You mean the trillion dollar a year military that still hasn't been able to finish up business in Iraq and Afghanistan? Yeah, it's run SO well.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Blame the inside contractor deals, corrupt politics. Senator awards contracts to their brother-in-law who gouges the fuck out of the government, the American way.

Yet you're naive enough to think that same exact thing wouldn't happen with government run health care.

Move along little boy.
 

potluv

Member
Nov 3, 2010
100
0
0
You mean the trillion dollar a year military that still hasn't been able to finish up business in Iraq and Afghanistan? Yeah, it's run SO well.

We aren't exactly there to finish up anything imho, more like maintain the business interests of the west (EU/USA) while keeping the muslim immigrants in the EU docile to their European counterparts, they can't be mad at the Europeans for income inequality when America's bombing their homeland.
 

potluv

Member
Nov 3, 2010
100
0
0
Yet you're naive enough to think that same exact thing wouldn't happen with government run health care.

Move along little boy.

So you're fine with the corrupt inside deals and politics in this country, so long as the health insurance companies continue to make a profit off of people's sufferings here? Exactly what I expected to hear from a capitalist.
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
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Is that supposed to be a surprise? It's a business - they provide service and expect to be compensated.

Do you work for free?

I have on many an occassion lost money while working my ass off. So what? I never suggested they work for free, that's your stupid strawman.

Did you get a double digit raise every year for the last 40 years. That is what has caused this crisis in the first place. If we as a nation can't afford a basic level of health care for everybody then we have to stop and look at the way we are doing things and why it is so many people are either uninsured, underinsured, or going through medical bankruptcy when they had insurance.

Not to mention all the people needlessly dying from lack of basic healthcare.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
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You mean the trillion dollar a year military that still hasn't been able to finish up business in Iraq and Afghanistan? Yeah, it's run SO well.

The DoD budget (including overseas contingency operations) is 680 billion.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
I think the best way to respond to your questions is to respond with another question I have for you... which would you rather have manage health care for 300+ million people, a bunch of for profit health insurance corporations, or the government?

I'd rather have lots of different for profit corporations handle it for a few million people each.

Trying to have one agency run anything for 300M people is a nightmare waiting to happen.

Why is that "liberals" who absolutely despise monopolies when they happen in the market are so eager to set up a government run monopoly?
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
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Edited: I just re-read a couple other posts you made and the original admin costs post. I think I read the admin cost post as "Costs are too high. What can insurers do to reduce them?" when what you meant was "Costs are too high. What can be done by society to reduce them?". I agree that tort reform would lower costs some. What exactly do you mean by inter-state availability? I can't really comment on that until I know what you mean. I think the rest of what I said above, that admin costs are not exorbitant and whatnot, still applies but I do better understand the point you were initially trying to make.

Well, what I meant was what can government do to reduce the costs of private insurance. The inter-state stuff was making it possible for health insurance companies to sell insurance nation-wide.
 
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potluv

Member
Nov 3, 2010
100
0
0
I'd rather have lots of different for profit corporations handle it for a few million people each.

Trying to have one agency run anything for 300M people is a nightmare waiting to happen.

Why is that "liberals" who absolutely despise monopolies when they happen in the market are so eager to set up a government run monopoly?

Maybe because everyone who doesn't share your principles aren't liberal? I'm okay government ran health care, government regulated marijuana, government ran infrastructure (state not federal managed infrastructure is mainly the reason why infrastructure in this country is shit), etc.
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,651
2,933
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So private health insurance administrative costs are ok and cannot possibly be cut/reduced?

I never once claimed that. In fact I even mentioned that non-mutual insurers have a direct incentive (profit) to cut G&A as much as possible and that category is the most easily affected by internal policy (as opposed to claims costs which are subject to bad-faith laws and premium amounts which are subject to regulation). I doubt that, given an already-strong profit motive, non-mutual insurers have a whole lot of fat they can trim, especially to the tune of an order of magnitude they'd need to get to Medicare's *alleged* rate of 2%.

Well, what I meant was what can government do to reduce the costs of private insurance.

Understood, now. I didn't get that earlier.

The inter-state stuff was making it possible for health insurance companies to sell insurance nation-wide.

They can if they submit themselves to the regulations of the states they sell in. Most insurers find it beneficial to create multiple affiliates for different states/lines/products so they minimize the amount of regulation an individual carrier may be under.

A group like Humana has 34 different entities offering life products all over the country. The Unitedhealth group has 77 carriers nationwide. Just because Mamsi may only operate in a few NE states doesn't mean the company isn't part of a national group.
 
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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Maybe because everyone who doesn't share your principles aren't liberal? I'm okay government ran health care, government regulated marijuana, government ran infrastructure (state not federal managed infrastructure is mainly the reason why infrastructure in this country is shit), etc.

That's true, you clearly aren't liberal, because you don't value freedom at all. Sounds like you're quite happy with sitting back and letting the government run your life.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,238
55,791
136
The DoD budget (including overseas contingency operations) is 680 billion.

The DoD budget also leaves out a large amount of expenditures which are inextricably defense related. Funding for our nuclear arsenal goes through the Department of Energy, but I sincerely doubt people would try to make the claim that it's anything but military spending. That's $20 billion more. Veterans Affairs is obviously military related spending as well, that's $66 billion, another $60 billion for military pensions, there's interest on debts incurred due to wars, there's billions more for defense satellites that the funding goes through NASA, there's Homeland Security, which is internal security operations, etc... etc.

You can quibble how much of each expenditure there should count towards military spending, but the end number is a whole lot closer to $1 trillion than it is to $680 billion.
 

manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
13,559
8
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That lie has been debunked so many times. Do your own research.

I have -the hard numbers are there. Sure that number is skewed by the fact that seniors spend more and these numbers would go up if younger people who get less care are added to the books. Even if you allow for that and additional spending needed to fight fraud the fact that profit is still going to be removed from the equation a single payer system will still be cheaper..
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
I have -the hard numbers are there. Sure that number is skewed by the fact that seniors spend more and these numbers would go up if younger people who get less care are added to the books. Even if you allow for that and additional spending needed to fight fraud the fact that profit is still going to be removed from the equation a single payer system will still be cheaper..

I won't argue that. Profit is certainly a part of the cost of the current system. But is removing that profit enough to offset the inevitable waste of a government system? Also, profit is what drives improvement in the private sector. The only motive to improve in the public sector is re-election. And we've seen how well that works as a motivator over the past decade.