Black Couple Only Shopping at Black-owned Businesses

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Here's the problem, you frankly don't understand english. You clearly don't know that racist is not only a noun (what you are describing) but an adjective (what I'm describing). The peopel in the story ARE racist. Just like people can be "annoying" (another adjective btw), these blacks are racist. READ THE DICTIONARY AGAIN.

No, here's the problem: and I already explained this early in the thread and repeatedly, so you can't be bothered to read the previous posts? - you lack reading comprehension.

And common sense.

Some words, including racist, have multiple definitions.

When someone posts "hey, these people are doing X, isn't that racist?", they are not using every definition of the word. They aren't asking "hey, these people are doing x, doesn't that fit the technical definition of some term that absolutely no pejorative meaning to it, I'm jus curious for no reason?"

No, as I explained already repeatedly, I am taking the position that in my opinion, the definition that's relevant in answering the question is the pejoritve, bigoted meaning.

If you disagree, that's one thing, but your statements are idiotic. It has nothing to do with the adjective or noun form - it has to do with whether the relevant definition is pejorative.

Jesus, what school system are you a product of? I don't mean to be rude but this is ridiculous, have you gone all your life thinking that racist is only a noun? Shall I start teaching you the definition of other words as well?

You're making an ass of yourself as you go into histrionics based on your error.

While we're at it, respond to my other post and tell me that these people are not racist. Let's end this once and for all for fck's sake:

Let's cut through the semantical BS and answer the main question: Is basing purchases strictly on skin color ok? And if someone does it, is it racist because they're purchasing based off skin color?

I'm not saying that blacks aren't exactly even with whites, but the "woe is me" BS is getting old. The election proved my point and I guarantee you most in here would agree that pulling the race card is a weak, overplayed excuse for lack of ambition.

I've already answered it many times. Had you read them, you would see I have - as I said repeatedly - not discussed whether buying only from black-owned shops is 'ok' or not.

I did discuss whether it's "racist", using the definition as I said in my opinion is the relevant one, of bigotry, and it's not. That doesn't mean it is or is not a good idea.

I did discuss why they might want to do that, the justifications, to support my claim why it was not bigoted behavior.

And frankly, I'm not too interested now in getting into the separate issue of whether it's a good idea or not with you, when you have been so off base on the first issue.

I agree that there is a problem with the attitude of many black people, even while I also make the case that they continue to be very wronged by racism, past and some present.

Your claim that the legacy of historical racism doesn't exist because Obama was elected is absurd. If you are right people would agree with you, that reflects very badly on them.

Your other last comment is, in my opinion, simply ignorant - and even racist.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

He's afraid of the word, but you are counting the angels dancing on the head of a pin.

Here is how it is. If you go in many inner cities, you are going to find it's an area of poverty relative to surrounding white communities. If you need statistics to get that, then find them.

I occasionally work in that setting, and I don't care for the "The Man owes me" attitude I sometimes hear. You know what though? Life sucks, and more for them economically. Hey, GO GET A FRIGGIN JOB!!

Oh wait, there aren't many businesses there, and those which are are run by blacks.

Let's see how this works.

There aren't jobs for blacks, so blacks don't have jobs unless in the black community blacks own businesses and put them to work. Black business close their doors if they don't have black customers, and blacks are unemployed again. So someone decides to support black businesses who employ black people so you don't have to fork out for their welfare checks.

And you have a problem with this?

Hey, if you want to call it racist, I'll play along. I'm racist, and I support this kind of racism.

My response to that?

A) Get good grades in school
B) Get a good scholarship and loans if you need it for college
C) Succeed further than your parents' generation.

I did it, anyone can do it. My mother was a single mother (first gen Asian immigrant) of 3 kids and worked for pennies. To reiterate, the woe is me BS is getting old from blacks when a black president just proved anyone can do it from any race.

As far as blacks who are too old to go to/back to school, yes it's a shame but they do get help from the government. Hopefully they will instill/have instilled the right values in their kids so the next generation isn't impoverished. I've probably seen more poverty than you can shake a stick at. Do you know what it's like to live in the winter without electricity? No phone? Eating Pb&j and rice to get by? Selling drugs to pay rent? See, I can play the woe is me card as well but I like to think it made me resilient enough to succeed in life and get my sht together to actually appreciate what I have now.

Don't forget to click your heals three times and say there's no place like home.
Here's how it is. I've seen people eat dirt because they are hungry. Go shake a stick somewhere else.

The world isn't nearly as nice as you think it is. That hundreds of thousands of people are going to magically find a job is nonsense. You may have seen poverty, but you learned nothing about it. You boast about poverty like it was a badge. Son, you haven't learned a thing. You think you were the only one who came from a disadvantaged background?

Inner city people aren't going to have a biblical Economic Rapture. Where they live there isn't a lot of hope, and they aren't just going to wake up in the real world and move to your neighborhood, unless you live in poverty as well. Hell, I'm all for personal accountability, but I've been around enough so I don't have this illusion that people can work without jobs. If people don't support those businesses they aren't going anywhere. You think the whole world is like you and me? Well it isn't, and you can sit smug patting yourself on the back all day, but you aren't helping anyone. The couple that is supporting business which put those people into jobs are.

So congrats.

You aren't racist, but you like to lecture those lazy blacks and do nothing constructive at all.

These people are racist by your criteria, but they are helping and doing some good.

I'll take their racism over your righteousness any day.

 

[Don66]

Who really cares where this couple shops?
After all it's their money and they should be able to spend it where they want.

The problem is the media making a racial thing out of it, and you sheeple buying into it.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Here's the problem, you frankly don't understand english. You clearly don't know that racist is not only a noun (what you are describing) but an adjective (what I'm describing). The peopel in the story ARE racist. Just like people can be "annoying" (another adjective btw), these blacks are racist. READ THE DICTIONARY AGAIN.

No, here's the problem: and I already explained this early in the thread and repeatedly, so you can't be bothered to read the previous posts? - you lack reading comprehension.

And common sense.

Some words, including racist, have multiple definitions.

When someone posts "hey, these people are doing X, isn't that racist?", they are not using every definition of the word. They aren't asking "hey, these people are doing x, doesn't that fit the technical definition of some term that absolutely no pejorative meaning to it, I'm jus curious for no reason?"

No, as I explained already repeatedly, I am taking the position that in my opinion, the definition that's relevant in answering the question is the pejoritve, bigoted meaning.

If you disagree, that's one thing, but your statements are idiotic. It has nothing to do with the adjective or noun form - it has to do with whether the relevant definition is pejorative.

Jesus, what school system are you a product of? I don't mean to be rude but this is ridiculous, have you gone all your life thinking that racist is only a noun? Shall I start teaching you the definition of other words as well?

You're making an ass of yourself as you go into histrionics based on your error.

While we're at it, respond to my other post and tell me that these people are not racist. Let's end this once and for all for fck's sake:

Let's cut through the semantical BS and answer the main question: Is basing purchases strictly on skin color ok? And if someone does it, is it racist because they're purchasing based off skin color?

I'm not saying that blacks aren't exactly even with whites, but the "woe is me" BS is getting old. The election proved my point and I guarantee you most in here would agree that pulling the race card is a weak, overplayed excuse for lack of ambition.

I've already answered it many times. Had you read them, you would see I have - as I said repeatedly - not discussed whether buying only from black-owned shops is 'ok' or not.

I did discuss whether it's "racist", using the definition as I said in my opinion is the relevant one, of bigotry, and it's not. That doesn't mean it is or is not a good idea.

I did discuss why they might want to do that, the justifications, to support my claim why it was not bigoted behavior.

And frankly, I'm not too interested now in getting into the separate issue of whether it's a good idea or not with you, when you have been so off base on the first issue.

I agree that there is a problem with the attitude of many black people, even while I also make the case that they continue to be very wronged by racism, past and some present.

Your claim that the legacy of historical racism doesn't exist because Obama was elected is absurd. If you are right people would agree with you, that reflects very badly on them.

Your other last comment is, in my opinion, simply ignorant - and even racist.

So you admit that it's not a good idea for the black couple to do. You admit that by definition, these people (or their actions) are racist (adjective). My work is done here.

I never called them bigots, stop putting words in my mouth. I never said they hated other races, but their actions are still racist by definition.

Calling my comment "racist" because I think using the race card is a weak excuse is fine with me. I call it how I see it and too many people play the race card as an excuse for lack of ambition.

One of my best friends growing up (Malik) was black and lived in the worst part of the county. I've experienced it personally and seen black poverty firsthand. He became a mechanic and isn't rich, but makes a decent living and his children will be going to college next year. I guarantee you that he would not support the stupidity of the black couple in Chicago, but to each their own. One of my best friends now is black and is 41 and trying to go to college to make a better life for his 4 year old son and 11 year old daughter. I'm helping him apply for loans and write admission letters. Maybe I should have some of my buds post about using the race card and their opinion on it?

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

He's afraid of the word, but you are counting the angels dancing on the head of a pin.

Here is how it is. If you go in many inner cities, you are going to find it's an area of poverty relative to surrounding white communities. If you need statistics to get that, then find them.

I occasionally work in that setting, and I don't care for the "The Man owes me" attitude I sometimes hear. You know what though? Life sucks, and more for them economically. Hey, GO GET A FRIGGIN JOB!!

Oh wait, there aren't many businesses there, and those which are are run by blacks.

Let's see how this works.

There aren't jobs for blacks, so blacks don't have jobs unless in the black community blacks own businesses and put them to work. Black business close their doors if they don't have black customers, and blacks are unemployed again. So someone decides to support black businesses who employ black people so you don't have to fork out for their welfare checks.

And you have a problem with this?

Hey, if you want to call it racist, I'll play along. I'm racist, and I support this kind of racism.

My response to that?

A) Get good grades in school
B) Get a good scholarship and loans if you need it for college
C) Succeed further than your parents' generation.

I did it, anyone can do it. My mother was a single mother (first gen Asian immigrant) of 3 kids and worked for pennies. To reiterate, the woe is me BS is getting old from blacks when a black president just proved anyone can do it from any race.

As far as blacks who are too old to go to/back to school, yes it's a shame but they do get help from the government. Hopefully they will instill/have instilled the right values in their kids so the next generation isn't impoverished. I've probably seen more poverty than you can shake a stick at. Do you know what it's like to live in the winter without electricity? No phone? Eating Pb&j and rice to get by? Selling drugs to pay rent? See, I can play the woe is me card as well but I like to think it made me resilient enough to succeed in life and get my sht together to actually appreciate what I have now.

Don't forget to click your heals three times and say there's no place like home.
Here's how it is. I've seen people eat dirt because they are hungry. Go shake a stick somewhere else.

The world isn't nearly as nice as you think it is. That hundreds of thousands of people are going to magically find a job is nonsense. You may have seen poverty, but you learned nothing about it. You boast about poverty like it was a badge. Son, you haven't learned a thing. You think you were the only one who came from a disadvantaged background?

Inner city people aren't going to have a biblical Economic Rapture. Where they live there isn't a lot of hope, and they aren't just going to wake up in the real world and move to your neighborhood, unless you live in poverty as well. Hell, I'm all for personal accountability, but I've been around enough so I don't have this illusion that people can work without jobs. If people don't support those businesses they aren't going anywhere. You think the whole world is like you and me? Well it isn't, and you can sit smug patting yourself on the back all day, but you aren't helping anyone. The couple that is supporting business which put those people into jobs are.

So congrats.

You aren't racist, but you like to lecture those lazy blacks and do nothing constructive at all.

These people are racist by your criteria, but they are helping and doing some good.

I'll take their racism over your righteousness any day.

It has nothing to do with self righteousness "son". It has to do with the fact that I'm qualified to talk about poverty, and that my solution is pretty fcking simple to follow: do it through education and getting a white collar job. Obama did it, I did it, and a hell of a lot of other minorities do it every day. Don't act like poverty is hopeless, it's not for families smart enough to realize the way out of it.

You say you're about personal accountability, but then congratulate the black couple that is "supporting business" by only buying from black businesses. The whole topic has flown over your head, only supporting black businesses doesn't combat poverty as a whole. BLACK poverty, yes, but that is racist by definition. You should want to help out everyone, not someone just b/c of the color of their skin. You fail to address that point, just like you failed to address the point that education = more jobs for the impoverished. But keep beating us with your experience and maybe we'll eventually agree with you, right?

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Here's the problem, you frankly don't understand english. You clearly don't know that racist is not only a noun (what you are describing) but an adjective (what I'm describing). The peopel in the story ARE racist. Just like people can be "annoying" (another adjective btw), these blacks are racist. READ THE DICTIONARY AGAIN.

No, here's the problem: and I already explained this early in the thread and repeatedly, so you can't be bothered to read the previous posts? - you lack reading comprehension.

And common sense.

Some words, including racist, have multiple definitions.

When someone posts "hey, these people are doing X, isn't that racist?", they are not using every definition of the word. They aren't asking "hey, these people are doing x, doesn't that fit the technical definition of some term that absolutely no pejorative meaning to it, I'm jus curious for no reason?"

No, as I explained already repeatedly, I am taking the position that in my opinion, the definition that's relevant in answering the question is the pejoritve, bigoted meaning.

If you disagree, that's one thing, but your statements are idiotic. It has nothing to do with the adjective or noun form - it has to do with whether the relevant definition is pejorative.

Jesus, what school system are you a product of? I don't mean to be rude but this is ridiculous, have you gone all your life thinking that racist is only a noun? Shall I start teaching you the definition of other words as well?

You're making an ass of yourself as you go into histrionics based on your error.

While we're at it, respond to my other post and tell me that these people are not racist. Let's end this once and for all for fck's sake:

Let's cut through the semantical BS and answer the main question: Is basing purchases strictly on skin color ok? And if someone does it, is it racist because they're purchasing based off skin color?

I'm not saying that blacks aren't exactly even with whites, but the "woe is me" BS is getting old. The election proved my point and I guarantee you most in here would agree that pulling the race card is a weak, overplayed excuse for lack of ambition.

I've already answered it many times. Had you read them, you would see I have - as I said repeatedly - not discussed whether buying only from black-owned shops is 'ok' or not.

I did discuss whether it's "racist", using the definition as I said in my opinion is the relevant one, of bigotry, and it's not. That doesn't mean it is or is not a good idea.

I did discuss why they might want to do that, the justifications, to support my claim why it was not bigoted behavior.

And frankly, I'm not too interested now in getting into the separate issue of whether it's a good idea or not with you, when you have been so off base on the first issue.

I agree that there is a problem with the attitude of many black people, even while I also make the case that they continue to be very wronged by racism, past and some present.

Your claim that the legacy of historical racism doesn't exist because Obama was elected is absurd. If you are right people would agree with you, that reflects very badly on them.

Your other last comment is, in my opinion, simply ignorant - and even racist.

So you admit that it's not a good idea for the black couple to do. You admit that by definition, these people (or their actions) are racist (adjective). My work is done here.

I never called them bigots, stop putting words in my mouth. I never said they hated other races, but their actions are still racist by definition.

Calling my comment "racist" because I think using the race card is a weak excuse is fine with me. I call it how I see it and too many people play the race card as an excuse for lack of ambition.

One of my best friends growing up (Malik) was black and lived in the worst part of the county. I've experienced it personally and seen black poverty firsthand. He became a mechanic and isn't rich, but makes a decent living and his children will be going to college next year. I guarantee you that he would not support the stupidity of the black couple in Chicago, but to each their own. One of my best friends now is black and is 41 and trying to go to college to make a better life for his 4 year old son and 11 year old daughter. I'm helping him apply for loans and write admission letters. Maybe I should have some of my buds post about using the race card and their opinion on it?

I promised not to respond to you, but I can't help myself. I'm disgusted that you think it's OK to talk about the "good black people" you know. I'm shocked that your friend has a son and a daughter, and wants them to go to college!

Your black friends' opinions on this are of no relevance. It speaks to your ignorance that you think two people can speak for an entire race.

I hope your "black friends" know that you think you're black because you like LL Cool J.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

He's afraid of the word, but you are counting the angels dancing on the head of a pin.

Here is how it is. If you go in many inner cities, you are going to find it's an area of poverty relative to surrounding white communities. If you need statistics to get that, then find them.

I occasionally work in that setting, and I don't care for the "The Man owes me" attitude I sometimes hear. You know what though? Life sucks, and more for them economically. Hey, GO GET A FRIGGIN JOB!!

Oh wait, there aren't many businesses there, and those which are are run by blacks.

Let's see how this works.

There aren't jobs for blacks, so blacks don't have jobs unless in the black community blacks own businesses and put them to work. Black business close their doors if they don't have black customers, and blacks are unemployed again. So someone decides to support black businesses who employ black people so you don't have to fork out for their welfare checks.

And you have a problem with this?

Hey, if you want to call it racist, I'll play along. I'm racist, and I support this kind of racism.

My response to that?

A) Get good grades in school
B) Get a good scholarship and loans if you need it for college
C) Succeed further than your parents' generation.

I did it, anyone can do it. My mother was a single mother (first gen Asian immigrant) of 3 kids and worked for pennies. To reiterate, the woe is me BS is getting old from blacks when a black president just proved anyone can do it from any race.

As far as blacks who are too old to go to/back to school, yes it's a shame but they do get help from the government. Hopefully they will instill/have instilled the right values in their kids so the next generation isn't impoverished. I've probably seen more poverty than you can shake a stick at. Do you know what it's like to live in the winter without electricity? No phone? Eating Pb&j and rice to get by? Selling drugs to pay rent? See, I can play the woe is me card as well but I like to think it made me resilient enough to succeed in life and get my sht together to actually appreciate what I have now.

Don't forget to click your heals three times and say there's no place like home.
Here's how it is. I've seen people eat dirt because they are hungry. Go shake a stick somewhere else.

The world isn't nearly as nice as you think it is. That hundreds of thousands of people are going to magically find a job is nonsense. You may have seen poverty, but you learned nothing about it. You boast about poverty like it was a badge. Son, you haven't learned a thing. You think you were the only one who came from a disadvantaged background?

Inner city people aren't going to have a biblical Economic Rapture. Where they live there isn't a lot of hope, and they aren't just going to wake up in the real world and move to your neighborhood, unless you live in poverty as well. Hell, I'm all for personal accountability, but I've been around enough so I don't have this illusion that people can work without jobs. If people don't support those businesses they aren't going anywhere. You think the whole world is like you and me? Well it isn't, and you can sit smug patting yourself on the back all day, but you aren't helping anyone. The couple that is supporting business which put those people into jobs are.

So congrats.

You aren't racist, but you like to lecture those lazy blacks and do nothing constructive at all.

These people are racist by your criteria, but they are helping and doing some good.

I'll take their racism over your righteousness any day.

It has nothing to do with self righteousness "son". It has to do with the fact that I'm qualified to talk about poverty, and that my solution is pretty fcking simple to follow: do it through education and getting a white collar job. Obama did it, I did it, and a hell of a lot of other minorities do it every day. Don't act like poverty is hopeless, it's not for families smart enough to realize the way out of it.

You say you're about personal accountability, but then congratulate the black couple that is "supporting business" by only buying from black businesses. The whole topic has flown over your head, only supporting black businesses doesn't combat poverty as a whole. BLACK poverty, yes, but that is racist by definition. You should want to help out everyone, not someone just b/c of the color of their skin. You fail to address that point, just like you failed to address the point that education = more jobs for the impoverished. But keep beating us with your experience and maybe we'll eventually agree with you, right?

I would agree. Your solution is indeed simple.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: n yusef

I promised not to respond to you, but I can't help myself. I'm disgusted that you think it's OK to talk about the "good black people" you know. I'm shocked that your friend has a son and a daughter, and wants them to go to college!

Your black friends' opinions on this are of no relevance. It speaks to your ignorance that you think two people can speak for an entire race.

I hope your "black friends" know that you think you're black because you like LL Cool J.

I was dumbing it down for the masses with the LL Cool J: don't take it personal, seriously. I probably know more about hiphop and its history than you do. I'm down with conscious hiphop artists and enjoy artists like The Roots (Black Thought is true lyricist), Common, Little Brother, Black Star (Talib and Mos Def), Badu, Alicia Keys, Outkast, Public Enemy, KRS-One/BDP (just saw him live with my bro last Fall - fav rapper of all time), Wyclef/Fugees/Lauryn Hill, Maxwell, and Latifah. All are favorites of mine as well as lyrical battle raps (my brother makes hiphop beats as a hobby and sells them). I used LL Cool J as an example for others who don't/can't understand soul music or have never heard of it, he's a pop icon and easily recognizable. It may have come across as disrespectful to you but don't take it that way.

It has nothing to do with "good" or "bad" black people but the fact that responsibility has no skin color and I was giving you an example of that. Responsibility in helping not only your own family and race, but everyone in your community. Like someone posted earlier, skin color boundaries are now vague and to racially discriminate based off it is a detrimental thing for the whole community. Pick each other up in this time of need and treat everyone as you would treat yourself is how I've always lived.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I would agree. Your solution is indeed simple.

My simple plan for the reforming of Wall Street: tell them that these crashes aren't good for most of them, either, so act responsibly.

I'm being facetious, but sadly, that really was the 'plan' that the 'free market zealots' had, the plan Greenspan admitted to - rational markets - and now said he was wrong about.

My simple plan for ending teen sex: tell them that it's not in their interest to get children or diseases at that young age.

My simple plan for solving terrorism: tell the terrorists that they can't win, so just knock it off. What else?

 

[evident]

it it the same as if i go to the pizza place that advertises in the church bulletin and is an active part of the parish? or a bunch of jews going to the jewish deli to get kosher food?

if she's just shopping at random places owned by black people i think that may be sort of racist, but if it was within their community where they had some type of connection? still maybe, but the outrage would be less.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: n yusef

I think to judge couple's lifestyle, we must answer this question: If one racial group is disadvantaged, is it racist to specifically help the disadvantaged group?

When you take it to the extreme of doing business ONLY with your same race and then promote the idea to others, then yes, it is racist.

Yes, I see it's macro time for those who can't read too well.

Whether it's racist, IMO, is affected by accounting for economic disparity between whites and blacks.

If whites only shop at white places, it's likely because of a hate for blacks. If blacks only shop at black places, it might be hate and racist - or might be because of inequities.

If it's the latter, it's not racist, IMO - it's actually responding to, correcting, the racism of the past that created inequity...

Racist doesn't mean 'based on race'. It refers to the animosity, the disrespect, for a race as the motive.

You can be racist and not take any action at all.

Taking action based on race is not necessarily racist.

On this issue, your whole logic process can be condensed into a macro. They are discriminating based on race, ergo it's racist. Is it the same as racism based only on hate? No, not even close, but it still is encouraging people to make decisions based on nothing but race.

His definition is still valid but he is completely rejecting this definition even though it's in the dictionary. A common flaw among people who will only accept what they want to believe and reject all other arguments b/c they cannot be wrong.

He's afraid of the word, but you are counting the angels dancing on the head of a pin.

Here is how it is. If you go in many inner cities, you are going to find it's an area of poverty relative to surrounding white communities. If you need statistics to get that, then find them.

I occasionally work in that setting, and I don't care for the "The Man owes me" attitude I sometimes hear. You know what though? Life sucks, and more for them economically. Hey, GO GET A FRIGGIN JOB!!

Oh wait, there aren't many businesses there, and those which are are run by blacks.

Let's see how this works.

There aren't jobs for blacks, so blacks don't have jobs unless in the black community blacks own businesses and put them to work. Black business close their doors if they don't have black customers, and blacks are unemployed again. So someone decides to support black businesses who employ black people so you don't have to fork out for their welfare checks.

And you have a problem with this?

Hey, if you want to call it racist, I'll play along. I'm racist, and I support this kind of racism.

Well, we agree that he's afraid of the word.

If you watched the video the woman says something like "they want to dispel the myth about black business and black professionals and that myth is that their goods and services are somehow inferior"? WTF?

Yet they live in affluent suburb?? They have a guilty conscience and want to soothe it with this so called "Ebony Experiment". I don't see anything wrong with black people wanting to help other black people UNTIL they do it to total exclusion of the rest of us.

I just fight this kind of thinking as being actually counter-productive over the long term.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: Craig234

So, if I approach people to learn about the heritage of people whose ancestors are from Africa, and I only ask black people the questions, I'm racist. I discriminated by race.

That's be like asking me about Germany because that's where my ancestors hail from. LOL, I don't know squat about Germany except that they started two world wars.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: Craig234

So, if I approach people to learn about the heritage of people whose ancestors are from Africa, and I only ask black people the questions, I'm racist. I discriminated by race.

That's be like asking me about Germany because that's where my ancestors hail from. LOL, I don't know squat about Germany except that they started two world wars.

I think you're projecting....

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I would agree. Your solution is indeed simple.

My simple plan for the reforming of Wall Street: tell them that these crashes aren't good for most of them, either, so act responsibly.

I'm being facetious, but sadly, that really was the 'plan' that the 'free market zealots' had, the plan Greenspan admitted to - rational markets - and now said he was wrong about.

My simple plan for ending teen sex: tell them that it's not in their interest to get children or diseases at that young age.

My simple plan for solving terrorism: tell the terrorists that they can't win, so just knock it off. What else?

People think it's all about getting an education and becoming an EE or accountant or whatever. They forget that the main labor force is just that. They work. Not everyone can be white collar.

Someone has to do the building, the cleaning, the day to day stuff. That doesn't mean that people ought not to pursue other careers, but what inner city black Americans need is pride. Not this nonsense "black pride", but something apart from their color. They need to be able to go to work, earn a living and put food on their table by their own doing. That leads to a sense of self esteem, and there is never shame in honest labor.

The only way that can happen is for people to invest in them. Not many have the knowledge or resources to make a successful go of it.

I'm not a fan of giving people a check for nothing. If I ran the system, people would work and be educated if they got a money from the government. The goal is to get them off of that, and get them working. For that to happen they need jobs.

It's not rocket science. A hundred thousand bootstrapping themselves into white collar jobs isn't going to happen. Look at the graduate student situation in the sciences in America. We have a very educated population relative to the inner city, and yet we can't populate the slots open. That's why we have so many foreign students.

If a better educated class isn't cutting it, how are adult people who have just a fraction of the learning going to get there? By wishing? There are always exceptions where people do get ahead despite their circumstances, but that's not a reasonable expectation. We'd all be billionaires who would have others working for us. Right. Other billionaires are going to wire our homes and do the plumbing. Not a plausible scenario.

So we have people critical of black people who don't work, who are critical of people who give them that opportunity because supporting black people who want to work is racist. You can't win against that kind of logic, and fortunately I don't need to, because it's absurd on the face of it.

Give the people an opportunity to work, not just a lecture, foster pride in accomplishment and help educate those who are willing and able to take advantage of it.

Don't hand out a check, give a real chance and that comes through work, and that comes by people offering jobs and supporting people who do.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Well, we agree that he's afraid of the word.

If you watched the video the woman says something like "they want to dispel the myth about black business and black professionals and that myth is that their goods and services are somehow inferior"? WTF?

Yet they live in affluent suburb?? They have a guilty conscience and want to soothe it with this so called "Ebony Experiment". I don't see anything wrong with black people wanting to help other black people UNTIL they do it to total exclusion of the rest of us.

I just fight this kind of thinking as being actually counter-productive over the long term.

This argument is basically, "fake it till you make it." You think that by treating everyone equally, we will become equal. To me, that sounds like a great way to maintain the status quo. Also, it creates a game of chicken; those who do discriminate in this system are at an advantage. To achieve progress, we have create a level playing field, not imagine one.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I would agree. Your solution is indeed simple.

My simple plan for the reforming of Wall Street: tell them that these crashes aren't good for most of them, either, so act responsibly.

I'm being facetious, but sadly, that really was the 'plan' that the 'free market zealots' had, the plan Greenspan admitted to - rational markets - and now said he was wrong about.

My simple plan for ending teen sex: tell them that it's not in their interest to get children or diseases at that young age.

My simple plan for solving terrorism: tell the terrorists that they can't win, so just knock it off. What else?

People think it's all about getting an education and becoming an EE or accountant or whatever. They forget that the main labor force is just that. They work. Not everyone can be white collar.

Someone has to do the building, the cleaning, the day to day stuff. That doesn't mean that people ought not to pursue other careers, but what inner city black Americans need is pride. Not this nonsense "black pride", but something apart from their color. They need to be able to go to work, earn a living and put food on their table by their own doing. That leads to a sense of self esteem, and there is never shame in honest labor.

The only way that can happen is for people to invest in them. Not many have the knowledge or resources to make a successful go of it.

I'm not a fan of giving people a check for nothing. If I ran the system, people would work and be educated if they got a money from the government. The goal is to get them off of that, and get them working. For that to happen they need jobs.

It's not rocket science. A hundred thousand bootstrapping themselves into white collar jobs isn't going to happen. Look at the graduate student situation in the sciences in America. We have a very educated population relative to the inner city, and yet we can't populate the slots open. That's why we have so many foreign students.

If a better educated class isn't cutting it, how are adult people who have just a fraction of the learning going to get there? By wishing? There are always exceptions where people do get ahead despite their circumstances, but that's not a reasonable expectation. We'd all be billionaires who would have others working for us. Right. Other billionaires are going to wire our homes and do the plumbing. Not a plausible scenario.

So we have people critical of black people who don't work, who are critical of people who give them that opportunity because supporting black people who want to work is racist. You can't win against that kind of logic, and fortunately I don't need to, because it's absurd on the face of it.

Give the people an opportunity to work, not just a lecture, foster pride in accomplishment and help educate those who are willing and able to take advantage of it.

Don't hand out a check, give a real chance and that comes through work, and that comes by people offering jobs and supporting people who do.

Thanks for the insightful post!

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I would agree. Your solution is indeed simple.

My simple plan for the reforming of Wall Street: tell them that these crashes aren't good for most of them, either, so act responsibly.

I'm being facetious, but sadly, that really was the 'plan' that the 'free market zealots' had, the plan Greenspan admitted to - rational markets - and now said he was wrong about.

My simple plan for ending teen sex: tell them that it's not in their interest to get children or diseases at that young age.

My simple plan for solving terrorism: tell the terrorists that they can't win, so just knock it off. What else?

People think it's all about getting an education and becoming an EE or accountant or whatever. They forget that the main labor force is just that. They work. Not everyone can be white collar.

Someone has to do the building, the cleaning, the day to day stuff. That doesn't mean that people ought not to pursue other careers, but what inner city black Americans need is pride. Not this nonsense "black pride", but something apart from their color. They need to be able to go to work, earn a living and put food on their table by their own doing. That leads to a sense of self esteem, and there is never shame in honest labor.

The only way that can happen is for people to invest in them. Not many have the knowledge or resources to make a successful go of it.

I'm not a fan of giving people a check for nothing. If I ran the system, people would work and be educated if they got a money from the government. The goal is to get them off of that, and get them working. For that to happen they need jobs.

It's not rocket science. A hundred thousand bootstrapping themselves into white collar jobs isn't going to happen. Look at the graduate student situation in the sciences in America. We have a very educated population relative to the inner city, and yet we can't populate the slots open. That's why we have so many foreign students.

If a better educated class isn't cutting it, how are adult people who have just a fraction of the learning going to get there? By wishing? There are always exceptions where people do get ahead despite their circumstances, but that's not a reasonable expectation. We'd all be billionaires who would have others working for us. Right. Other billionaires are going to wire our homes and do the plumbing. Not a plausible scenario.

So we have people critical of black people who don't work, who are critical of people who give them that opportunity because supporting black people who want to work is racist. You can't win against that kind of logic, and fortunately I don't need to, because it's absurd on the face of it.

Give the people an opportunity to work, not just a lecture, foster pride in accomplishment and help educate those who are willing and able to take advantage of it.

Don't hand out a check, give a real chance and that comes through work, and that comes by people offering jobs and supporting people who do.

Overall I enjoyed reading your post. You do raise a good point, some (I would say truly poor and NOT middle class) do not have resources to go to college because they have squandered that opportunity when they were in high school by fcking off. They end up in a dead end job and are unhappy and don't have the energy to go back to school. Hence the vicious circle of poverty. Hell, even I did crappy in high school but excelled in college only after my junior year. All in all, like you said, black culture needs to change its mentality of "black pride" and really push education like other cultures who do like Asians. Take pride in scoring 100% on a math test in conjunction with sports. Take pride in being top of your class instead of playing video games (I wish my parents would have made me read more as a teen and take the video games away so I would have cared more about school).And you can really apply this formula to any minority who is entrenched in poverty, how to implement it is the question. If someone doesn't want to change, it's hard to force them.

So we have people critical of black people who don't work, who are critical of people who give them that opportunity because supporting black people who want to work is racist.

Everyone who owns a business "wants to work". Supporting any minority owned business is helping your community, why just limit it to one skin color? Now I can understand always patronizing your family and friends' businesses, that's different (like someone mentioned Jews only shopping in Jewish areas) because it's family to you. If an entire area is one ethnicity, then that's fine. For example, areas of south Philly are all segregated (Irish, Italian, Black) and most don't ever leave their part of the city. But in modern times (south Philly is like a time warp) areas aren't segregated like that anymore, especially in suburbs. My bakery is Arab, laundromat is owned by Indian, Blacks own the corner, an Asian owns the auto repair, so on and so forth. Whoever puts out the best product at the best price is who I support, it's the American way. To discriminate against someone before I even know them or have tried their product is a disservice to my community.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: Craig234

So, if I approach people to learn about the heritage of people whose ancestors are from Africa, and I only ask black people the questions, I'm racist. I discriminated by race.

That's be like asking me about Germany because that's where my ancestors hail from. LOL, I don't know squat about Germany except that they started two world wars.

I think you missed the point of the analogy.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I would agree. Your solution is indeed simple.

My simple plan for the reforming of Wall Street: tell them that these crashes aren't good for most of them, either, so act responsibly.

I'm being facetious, but sadly, that really was the 'plan' that the 'free market zealots' had, the plan Greenspan admitted to - rational markets - and now said he was wrong about.

My simple plan for ending teen sex: tell them that it's not in their interest to get children or diseases at that young age.

My simple plan for solving terrorism: tell the terrorists that they can't win, so just knock it off. What else?

People think it's all about getting an education and becoming an EE or accountant or whatever. They forget that the main labor force is just that. They work. Not everyone can be white collar.

Someone has to do the building, the cleaning, the day to day stuff. That doesn't mean that people ought not to pursue other careers, but what inner city black Americans need is pride. Not this nonsense "black pride", but something apart from their color. They need to be able to go to work, earn a living and put food on their table by their own doing. That leads to a sense of self esteem, and there is never shame in honest labor.

The only way that can happen is for people to invest in them. Not many have the knowledge or resources to make a successful go of it.

I'm not a fan of giving people a check for nothing. If I ran the system, people would work and be educated if they got a money from the government. The goal is to get them off of that, and get them working. For that to happen they need jobs.

It's not rocket science. A hundred thousand bootstrapping themselves into white collar jobs isn't going to happen. Look at the graduate student situation in the sciences in America. We have a very educated population relative to the inner city, and yet we can't populate the slots open. That's why we have so many foreign students.

If a better educated class isn't cutting it, how are adult people who have just a fraction of the learning going to get there? By wishing? There are always exceptions where people do get ahead despite their circumstances, but that's not a reasonable expectation. We'd all be billionaires who would have others working for us. Right. Other billionaires are going to wire our homes and do the plumbing. Not a plausible scenario.

So we have people critical of black people who don't work, who are critical of people who give them that opportunity because supporting black people who want to work is racist. You can't win against that kind of logic, and fortunately I don't need to, because it's absurd on the face of it.

Give the people an opportunity to work, not just a lecture, foster pride in accomplishment and help educate those who are willing and able to take advantage of it.

Don't hand out a check, give a real chance and that comes through work, and that comes by people offering jobs and supporting people who do.

Thanks for the insightful post!

Hyabusa's post is basically the Democratic/liberal position. But it's worth noting the right-wing response to it.

The right-wing response is really mostly about serving the interests of the wealthy at the expense of most - cut the programs that help the poor and middle class, to lower taxes or fund programs that benefit the top (e.g., the Big Pharma Medicare bill). But they can't say that's their policy, obviously. And so, they turn it into a distorted message that enough of the public WILL agree with to sell it - namely, 'the poor are lazy, don't give them handouts!'

Even working class people who are far better off with the liberal than the right-wing policies can relate to resenting excessive handouts sold to them by playing up the idea that liberals don't appreciate that they work hard and want to take theiir money - and so it is that the right is able to serve billionares at the expense of the working class, and get the working class to go along.

With the massive budgets for think-tank propaganda on exactly how to sell the policies that will fool the average American and the marketing budgets, it works well for them.

Or did, until the bad situations the right brought about got enough voters to abandon them in 2006 and 2008. But they still have strong support.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Well, we agree that he's afraid of the word.

If you watched the video the woman says something like "they want to dispel the myth about black business and black professionals and that myth is that their goods and services are somehow inferior"? WTF?

Yet they live in affluent suburb?? They have a guilty conscience and want to soothe it with this so called "Ebony Experiment". I don't see anything wrong with black people wanting to help other black people UNTIL they do it to total exclusion of the rest of us.

I just fight this kind of thinking as being actually counter-productive over the long term.

This argument is basically, "fake it till you make it." You think that by treating everyone equally, we will become equal. To me, that sounds like a great way to maintain the status quo. Also, it creates a game of chicken; those who do discriminate in this system are at an advantage. To achieve progress, we have create a level playing field, not imagine one.

What I think is that it matters not what race you are. "The Man" will screw you over if you let him, irregardless of race, creed, or religion. So will the vast majority of other people for that matter.

I'd like to point out I see you claiming that those who discriminate are at an advantage. Yet you think this couple should be awarded bonus points for discriminating?? And remember they're encouraging other to do the same.

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
And you have a problem with this?

Hey, if you want to call it racist, I'll play along. I'm racist, and I support this kind of racism.

Yep, I have a problem with this, and I consider it racist.

If we're really going to get past racism, then we need to recognize that on both sides of the fence, and recognize that the Korean man in a predominately black neighborhood has as much of a right to set up shop and compete for customers as does a black woman. But it's a free world, and if you happen to like choosing your shops based on the color of the skin of the workers there, you're free to do so. You wouldn't be the only one, and would be simply continuing the me and us vs. them polarizations which go back at least as long as you've been alive.

It isn't a great mental leap to understand that going beyond racism means looking all around the world and seeing ourselves as a part of a much larger community; including the local black merchant if he or she happens to be sufficient, but certainly not excluding non-blacks because that perpetuates polarization.

I suppose that the person who travels for 30 minutes to find the merchant of color of their choice is better than the person who's just looking out for themselves and will be an equal-opportunity shoplifter given the chance, but to me it is also clearly not a real solution to the underlying problem, whereas the opposite -- a recognition of brotherhood beyond race -- is.

 

[Starbuck1975]

You did not answer the question by creating some manufactured niche situation. Clearly, the context of my statement is average white American in average, diverse American city.

The situation I described was not manufactured, and the cultures I spoke of are hardly a niche. My contention is that there is no "average" white American.

The example I gave is quite plausible, and illustrates a scenario where someone labeled as white might conceivably and almost exclusively shop at businesses owned by others labeled as white.

I don't know what world you live in, but as a white person, I don't check the color of the person who owns the store when I enter a place of business.

You tell me the plausible, typical motive for (typical) white shoppers to have a policy to shop only at white - not specific ethnicities of white, but white - shops, then.

Again, what is a typical white shopper...I find the notion of labeling all cultures of European heritage as white quite ignorant.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Madwand1

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
And you have a problem with this?

Hey, if you want to call it racist, I'll play along. I'm racist, and I support this kind of racism.

Yep, I have a problem with this, and I consider it racist.

If we're really going to get past racism, then we need to recognize that on both sides of the fence, and recognize that the Korean man in a predominately black neighborhood has as much of a right to set up shop and compete for customers as does a black woman. But it's a free world, and if you happen to like choosing your shops based on the color of the skin of the workers there, you're free to do so. You wouldn't be the only one, and would be simply continuing the me and us vs. them polarizations which go back at least as long as you've been alive.

It isn't a great mental leap to understand that going beyond racism means looking all around the world and seeing ourselves as a part of a much larger community; including the local black merchant if he or she happens to be sufficient, but certainly not excluding non-blacks because that perpetuates polarization.

I suppose that the person who travels for 30 minutes to find the merchant of color of their choice is better than the person who's just looking out for themselves and will be an equal-opportunity shoplifter given the chance, but to me it is also clearly not a real solution to the underlying problem, whereas the opposite -- a recognition of brotherhood beyond race -- is.

Where does your post say a word about the disadvantages caused today by the century of racist policies that led to unequal advancement? Oh, ya, not one word about that.

It's one thing to argue why their preference is a bad idea, and another to post views that simply ignore an important part of the situation and leave unfairness without comment.

The least you could do is acknowledge the unfairness and say you don't know what to do about it.

 

[microbial]

Well, I watched the interview, and that couple claims that it's about "self-help economics" --so why not take them at their word?
That would put it in the protectionist, xenophobic end of the spectrum, definitely prejudiced (and by definition irrational).

Akin in every way to 1 issue voting, for example-- I'll vote for this candidate because he/she is Republican/Democrat, or for/against gay marriage, abortion, Creationist/evolutionist, etc.

You pick one modifier (one criteria), and only one. Completely irrational and prejudiced (prejudiced against a principle of total evidence, and objective evidence at that).

So why call it racist if they claim it's not racially motivated...as in "we hate whites, hispanics, etc....Any one have more insight as to their motivation...? Or is this thread a thinly veiled manifestation of what you all really wish to believe, like the other 3-4 threads floating about at this time (My Bad, The Obama Deception, etc.).

From where I'm standing it looks like all this opinioning is more revealing about AT psychosis that this Chicago couple.

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: Craig234
Where does your post say a word about the disadvantages caused today by the century of racist policies that led to unequal advancement? Oh, ya, not one word about that.

It's one thing to argue why their preference is a bad idea, and another to post views that simply ignore an important part of the situation and leave unfairness without comment.

The least you could do is acknowledge the unfairness and say you don't know what to do about it.

I don't know how much money and other special advantage you got from your parents and ancestors to amount to "century of racist policies that led to unequal advancement", but I got little, and the Korean man in my example setting up shop in the predominately black neighborhood probably didn't get much either. If you feel sure that you were personally unfairly advantaged, then OK, give some or all of it away to those you think were relatively disadvantaged.

The truth is that we all have opportunities of varying degrees to better our circumstances, and looking for special advantage at the expense of others based on race is really the last thing that those who have suffered as a cause of those policies should be advocating, because they have learned full well the negative consequences of racist practices, and so should not seek to continue in them towards others and perpetuate race wars for their children.

You don't become fair by becoming unfair. That's nothing more than the practice of revenge, which is a cycle which does not end until it's explicitly broken by saying enough -- I will not do that which I don't want done to me, and I don't want to perpetuate injustice imagining that it becomes justice the second time it's done. The injustice of the second time creates the groundwork for another cycle of injustice as response, and is not justice when the Korean man of the present is punished for the crimes of last century and earlier, with race imagined to be the discriminator for innocence and guilt.