BIGGEST IN E-GAMING: DOTA 2 Tourny @ ONE MILLION euro prize!

[ImpulsE69]

Gotta disagree. I think these games have exceedingly low skill caps,.

Chopped for quoting: This is teetering close to a conversation that was in the LOL thread. One could argue that any video game has a low skill cap when certain aspects are taken into account that skews the advantage one way or another. Take BF2BC for instance. Simply a better ping than the opponent puts you at a very high advantage, thus lowering your skill cap.

I do not find that having less 'spells' or options for moves in a game or skill trees really makes it any less complex, because at the end of the day, the human aspect is what makes it complex. It takes planning make sure your team has those counters etc. Sure maybe the idea behind the gameplay is simple, but the idea isn't to play bots, it's to play humans. Ultimately these games are no different than every other game where the idea is to get into your opponents territory. The only difference is how it's gone about. There is no real need to justify why those rules are there. Every game has it's own rules for it's own reasons. You either accept them, or move on and play something else. While blind pick is annoying at times, it simply an aspect of one game. There are other options out there.

 

[Firsttime]

Invoker from Dota required more micro then Starcraft haha, skill caps are high enough that I haven't hit them after 5+ years in the genre.

Competitive gaming in general is pretty snowbally. Counterstrike is, teams that win early get awps then win rounds. Starcraft is, the player that wins the early fights wins the match most of the time. But everyone starts equal, no perks, and proceeds to try to best the other team. That's what makes it competitive.

Blind pick is retarded, and exclusive to LoL. In Dota most games are Draft or Captain's Pick. Banning is essential in games with constant balance changes. What it really boils down to is, if you don't like it, don't play. God knows enough people play Mobas to keep the genre interesting. You can feel free to go play something with a "high" skill cap.

 

[ViviTheMage]

On that link, it says $1M USD, not euros.

yes not a single US team, LOL.

I like LoL, enjoyed DoTA as a mod .. but I don't think i'll be playing any more outside of LoL.

 

[Firsttime]

yes not a single US team, LOL.

Most of the best NA players jumped over to HoN. Once Dota 2 comes out I'm sure there will be a few NA teams in the top 16.

 

[HumblePie]

um to clarify a part of the argument going on in this thread. That being the mis conception around the game mechanic of deny exps by last hitting your own minions.

First off, it's not a "Feature" of the engine. You CAN NOT hit your own minions when they have full health. Just can't do it. You can only hit them when they are around 6% health or less. It was programmed that way. It adds quite a bit of strategy to the game to a degree.

I loved DotA and I love LoL for similar and different reasons. DoTA had too many unbalanced heroes, especially some that could easily go 1v5 like Sven or Axe at times. I hate how SLOW Dota started because the laning phase takes a lot longer there than it does in LoL. Laning phase for LoL is usually over by 10 minutes into the game. DotA it is usually 15+ minutes with both teams being of equal skill and equivalent team balance.

They are similar but different, and each has it's good and bad points.

 

[darkewaffle]

I don't think amplifying snowballing has a place in competitive game design, because it puts too much emphasis on the "fatal flaw", making that one mistake that decides a game. I think the 'victory' is reward enough, the confidence and momentum gained are influential enough. Nearly every sport that plays games in a series exhibit increased series win percentages even for teams that win just the first game, it's of huge psychological benefit and already a powerful influence. Hell even these game themselves, when played competitively, are played out over the course of a series and with good reason. I just think a 'competitive' game should do more to incorporate those principals into the game itself.

I don't think the fatal flaw mechanic itself is such a problem, but given the "long form" design of the game it should be mitigated. If you don't, you have the problem you see in football and soccer in some cases where the team that deserves to lose wins. Which happens in all sports, the difference is a series format prevents it in most scenarios or in shorter games as the determining course of events will be a much greater % of time played.

I guess it really boils down to whether you think making a big play once versus a consistently good team is worth a win or not. I know I had games of LoL where we lost the whole game, for an hour we would get housed but that late in the game all it took was for us to win our first team fight and it won us the whole game. And we've all seen football or soccer games turn like that I'm sure.

Banning I think is a lousy mechanic as well. Calling it essential because of constant changes is practically just an admission that the game's changes are not well designed or tested. And it promotes a lot of obnoxious metagaming, such as banning champions the opponents prefer. If I'm playing to win I want my opponents to be playing their best and so do I; I don't want to see artificial handicaps. It would be like letting the Steelers force Rodgers and Matthews to switch positions for the Super Bowl and the Packers forcing Roethlisberger and Ward to switch; who wants to watch that? What's competitive about having crippled teams play other crippled teams?

Chopped for quoting: This is teetering close to a conversation that was in the LOL thread. One could argue that any video game has a low skill cap when certain aspects are taken into account that skews the advantage one way or another. Take BF2BC for instance. Simply a better ping than the opponent puts you at a very high advantage, thus lowering your skill cap.

I don't really think that makes sense. I mean you could argue that ping or FPS have more influence in certain games than others, but they affect all games and only performance, not skill cap. A skill cap is simply a theoretical idea of how much can seperate a good player from a great player. In that sense, I don't think there's much in LoL at least. The way most people play most champions is very much the same because their limited abilities simply don't allow for much nuance; most of them can only be used in so many ways, and we're not talking very many.

Sion is an extreme example here as you basically play him by pressing two buttons, and really the only nuance to him is knowing the range on your shield. But the other champions are very similar in that you simply don't have enough abilities to really do anything unexpected with them. Certain ones are deeper than others, mostly those with 'skillshots' as they allow you to be somewhat creative with where and how you place them. But all in all the fact that when you look at a champion you know they can only do one of maybe 3-4 things to you really doesn't leave a lot to the imagination.

the human aspect is what makes it complex

In a sense, yes, but the problem is each champion is essentially an action figure that can only do three or four things. You've got judo chop, action voice, wing expand and wing retract. And no matter how good your imagination is, judo chop still cant kick open a door and action voice only says one thing. Point being the number of abilities and the 'directness' of how the abilities are effective means that there isn't a lot of variation to how they're played. All kennens and akalis use the same combo, so do almost all kassadins and luxes and garens and anivias and so on and so forth.

 

[RPD]

I don't really think that makes sense. I mean you could argue that ping or FPS have more influence in certain games than others, but they affect all games and only performance, not skill cap. A skill cap is simply a theoretical idea of how much can seperate a good player from a great player. In that sense, I don't think there's much in LoL at least. The way most people play most champions is very much the same because their limited abilities simply don't allow for much nuance; most of them can only be used in so many ways, and we're not talking very many.

Sion is an extreme example here as you basically play him by pressing two buttons, and really the only nuance to him is knowing the range on your shield. But the other champions are very similar in that you simply don't have enough abilities to really do anything unexpected with them. Certain ones are deeper than others, mostly those with 'skillshots' as they allow you to be somewhat creative with where and how you place them. But all in all the fact that when you look at a champion you know they can only do one of maybe 3-4 things to you really doesn't leave a lot to the imagination.

In a sense, yes, but the problem is each champion is essentially an action figure that can only do three or four things. You've got judo chop, action voice, wing expand and wing retract. And no matter how good your imagination is, judo chop still cant kick open a door and action voice only says one thing. Point being the number of abilities and the 'directness' of how the abilities are effective means that there isn't a lot of variation to how they're played. All kennens and akalis use the same combo, so do almost all kassadins and luxes and garens and anivias and so on and so forth.

This analogy fails because it assumes the heros are face to face in a vacuum, items don't exist nor do teammates, the map, what's going on in the lanes, and how the other team is doing or what they are doing.

Using that same logic, chess is a simple game and expert players aren't far removed from newbies.

 

[ImpulsE69]

You also have to figure in cooldowns, resists, hand eye coordination, reaction time, movement prediction to that. I think a few are too wrapped up in "oh I only has 4 buttons to choose from" concept. A game doesn't need 50 different units or moves to be deep or complex. While maybe the basic overall builds of characters in these games are similar, they are not by any means absolute. People try new strategies all the time. While people may use the same strategies on the same characters, that is kind of the point really. The difference is the items, runes, masteries, spells and just overall skill. I just don't buy the "this is a simple genre" concept. I've played many deep complex games and I don't find this to be any less just because the options are smaller. If the game was so simple and predictable, then the outcome of all games would be the same regardless of skill.

I will say that the more options you enter into a game, the harder it becomes to make it balanced without making everything simply the same. At some point every character just becomes a slight variation on another (which I think LOL is at that point now). Eve reached that point years ago. In the beginning every race had it's own unique thing, but in the end, as new things came out, they found it threw the balance off too much and subsequently whenever a new type of ship was introduced, it was introduced across the board. To me really took away from the uniqueness of the races. This is happening in LOL now with the latest batch of champions.

I will say I do find the "ranked" games in LoL to be a joke due to the banning process. Add to that the fact that you can't have 2 of the same character in a match, and well, the random, first come first serve pick/ban just becomes random draw luck. After that THEN picking/counter picking plays a crucial role, but I really think for a true test of skill, nothing should be banned.

 

[darkewaffle]

This analogy fails because it assumes the heros are face to face in a vacuum, items don't exist nor do teammates, the map, what's going on in the lanes, and how the other team is doing or what they are doing.

Using that same logic, chess is a simple game and expert players aren't far removed from newbies.

Those are just outside variables that affect the outcome, they don't actually influence the 'skill' that goes into it. Two football teams play; the outcome is influenced by weather, fans, playbooks, injuries. They influence performance but they do not change skill. A skill cap is a 'cap' because it is how theoretically 'well' something can be done, and presumably that cap could only be completely exercised in optimal conditions.

Teamplay in and of itself, in nearly any game or environment, has it's own (infinite perhaps) skill cap. The problem with that is it's no more unique or integrated into LoL than it is in CS or WoW or practically anything. So it's more or less a constant. In that sense, I think what's left to critique is just the core gameplay.

Which is not really one of LoL's strengths, though I don't personally have experience with HoN or DotA it sounds like they're all fairly similar. With so few abilities cooldown management is a non issue. In a fight you essentially use all your non ult CDs as much as possible, and at least a lot of characters just use their ult as early as possible as well.

Further, fewer abilities means most characters behave in the same way if for no reason other than process of elimination as abilities are used and placed on cooldown. With the exception of perhaps Nidalee and a couple of the newer characters, most of the champs have such defined combos that doing anything but that is simply a disservice to your team. Being efficient is as simple as DPSing in WoW, follow the recipe and do what makes sense.

I mean sure an Akali could harass with R instead of Q, a Trist could initiate with jump, Jax could jump without empowering first, TF could use his ult to port back to base, and dozens of other dumb things. But why would you? It's ineffective and inefficient and more dangerous. Point being, there is very little variation in how you play many, if not most, characters, regardless of build. And to me, that doesn't take much skill. A character normally becomes familiar after a very short time and there's little more to learn about each one than the timing/range to their abilities.

 

[fustercluck]

Seems like DOTA is like Soccer...everyone in other countries loves it but no one in the US likes it - I've never played it or hardly even seen screenshots or anything. The fact that valve is involved is a good sign though. One million dollar prize is nuts. Whoever comes in 2nd might hang themselves though.

Did anyone post the DOTA song yet? Great stuff. Basshunter - DOTA

 

[Markbnj]

Seems like DOTA is like Soccer...everyone in other countries loves it but no one in the US likes it

Or David Hasselhof's singing.

 

[RPD]

Those are just outside variables that affect the outcome, they don't actually influence the 'skill' that goes into it. Two football teams play; the outcome is influenced by weather, fans, playbooks, injuries. They influence performance but they do not change skill. A skill cap is a 'cap' because it is how theoretically 'well' something can be done, and presumably that cap could only be completely exercised in optimal conditions.

Teamplay in and of itself, in nearly any game or environment, has it's own (infinite perhaps) skill cap. The problem with that is it's no more unique or integrated into LoL than it is in CS or WoW or practically anything. So it's more or less a constant. In that sense, I think what's left to critique is just the core gameplay.

Which is not really one of LoL's strengths, though I don't personally have experience with HoN or DotA it sounds like they're all fairly similar. With so few abilities cooldown management is a non issue. In a fight you essentially use all your non ult CDs as much as possible, and at least a lot of characters just use their ult as early as possible as well.

Further, fewer abilities means most characters behave in the same way if for no reason other than process of elimination as abilities are used and placed on cooldown. With the exception of perhaps Nidalee and a couple of the newer characters, most of the champs have such defined combos that doing anything but that is simply a disservice to your team. Being efficient is as simple as DPSing in WoW, follow the recipe and do what makes sense.

I mean sure an Akali could harass with R instead of Q, a Trist could initiate with jump, Jax could jump without empowering first, TF could use his ult to port back to base, and dozens of other dumb things. But why would you? It's ineffective and inefficient and more dangerous. Point being, there is very little variation in how you play many, if not most, characters, regardless of build. And to me, that doesn't take much skill. A character normally becomes familiar after a very short time and there's little more to learn about each one than the timing/range to their abilities.

WOW. Really?

You think fights involve who can use their spells the most, cool downs be damned, regardless of the situation is.. is a smart way of playing?

Thank you for proving my point. The game to you has a low skill cap because you simply don't understand how to play it at a higher skill level.

 

[RPD]

I mean sure an Akali could harass with R instead of Q, a Trist could initiate with jump, Jax could jump without empowering first, TF could use his ult to port back to base, and dozens of other dumb things. But why would you? It's ineffective and inefficient and more dangerous. Point being, there is very little variation in how you play many, if not most, characters, regardless of build. And to me, that doesn't take much skill. A character normally becomes familiar after a very short time and there's little more to learn about each one than the timing/range to their abilities.

To expand on this and show why it's over simplistic here's why.

Your Akali example - She is a energy based character, which has a fixed regen, if she harasses, will it be useful, could a potential gank be waiting or does she have someone going to help her gank? If she just blindly harasses without watching her energy she won't have enough to stealth and attempt at a escape and just be insta gibbed. But how would one know a gank is coming? Map awareness, whether it's through wards or looking who's still present in the lane.

In a team fight, do you know how much energy you currently have, is it enough to pull off your combo even after the energy refund, will your combo even kill your target?

Tower diving, you can dive and kill them, but will you have enough energy to pull off your combo, enough life to take the hits from the tower and still escape? Or can you shave 1 move off your combo, ignite the target, use your stealth skill (which I believe ups both magic and physical armor) which would allow you to surive that last hit?

Can you answer all those questions on the fly? Ok now can you do the same with EVERY hero in the game, whether you are the one attacking or being attacked?

I'm guessing the answer is no and that is why you don't understand the skill cap.

 

[darkewaffle]

Of course; I was quite a proficient Akali until I got too tired of how every game was exactly the same because there is simply so little nuance to the gameplay. Every game I built nearly identical items, took the same skill paths, and played the same way. And it usually worked. When it didn't was usually due to someone having the awareness to buy an oracles and knowing where to be with it (Stealth in LoL is laughable, though it's the same way in almost every game thus far) or simply being greedy and making mistakes. The game is decided more by who makes the most mistakes moreso than who plays the best, hence 'any given sunday'. People beat themselves more than the other team beats them from my experience.

Yes, teamfights usually devolve into who can get the biggest ults and most accurate cooldowns off the fastest with few exceptions made for support or CC based abilities. It's why they don't last very long in most cases. There's rarely reason to conserve an ability unless it's a defensive maneuver or the other team has a Katarina/Malz/Wick/Galio in order to interrupt their ults. Even on resource starved champs like Sion the fights will be over long before you run out of mana, and the primary limitation on how much a champion outputs is cooldowns. The number of times you want to save a cooldown pale in comparison to the number of times you need to get it off or risk being harmless. Don't get me wrong you probably want to stun Yi instead of Soraka, but it's not like making the judgment call on whether you want to stun now or wait for highlander is a difficult one to make based on your team comp and his behavior.

For every hero? Oh god no, not a chance. I shudder to think of playing LoL so much that I might have every champ lol, but that doesn't mean I couldn't tell what they did or understand their combos. It takes very little time to go from "first time champ XYZ" to "proficient champ XYZ" with few exceptions. "Skillshot" champs will of course take more time to grow accustomed to as will any that require some degree of forward thinking (timing sion shield, timing/placement of gragas barrel, anivia/trundle obstacles); but as I said earlier abilities like this that that allow for more creativity inevitably allow for a moderately higher skill cap.

 

[RPD]

Of course; I was quite a proficient Akali until I got too tired of how every game was exactly the same because there is simply so little nuance to the gameplay. Every game I built nearly identical items, took the same skill paths, and played the same way. And it usually worked. When it didn't was usually due to someone having the awareness to buy an oracles and knowing where to be with it (Stealth in LoL is laughable, though it's the same way in almost every game thus far) or simply being greedy and making mistakes. The game is decided more by who makes the most mistakes moreso than who plays the best, hence 'any given sunday'. People beat themselves more than the other team beats them from my experience.

Yes, teamfights usually devolve into who can get the biggest ults and most accurate cooldowns off the fastest with few exceptions made for support or CC based abilities. It's why they don't last very long in most cases. There's rarely reason to conserve an ability unless it's a defensive maneuver or the other team has a Katarina/Malz/Wick/Galio in order to interrupt their ults. Even on resource starved champs like Sion the fights will be over long before you run out of mana, and the primary limitation on how much a champion outputs is cooldowns. The number of times you want to save a cooldown pale in comparison to the number of times you need to get it off or risk being harmless. Don't get me wrong you probably want to stun Yi instead of Soraka, but it's not like making the judgment call on whether you want to stun now or wait for highlander is a difficult one to make based on your team comp and his behavior.

For every hero? Oh god no, not a chance. I shudder to think of playing LoL so much that I might have every champ lol, but that doesn't mean I couldn't tell what they did or understand their combos. It takes very little time to go from "first time champ XYZ" to "proficient champ XYZ" with few exceptions. "Skillshot" champs will of course take more time to grow accustomed to as will any that require some degree of forward thinking (timing sion shield, timing/placement of gragas barrel, anivia/trundle obstacles); but as I said earlier abilities like this that that allow for more creativity inevitably allow for a moderately higher skill cap.

So you basically acknowledge there is more to the game then you care to learn (which is fine, I don't play it enough to do it either), however that in itself is a shinning example of what separates good every day players to the wtf did that guy just do player and how the fuck did he pull that off player. I'd like to think I'm just middle of the road at LoL because I don't play every day and haven't been playing that long compared to DotA. But every once and awhile I meet up with another player that literally makes my jaw drop at some of the moves and constant close calls they pull off (lee sin e.g.). It's one thing to do it once again, but doing it consistently all game is where the higher skill cap is. Now have that ability on 4 other people on the same team, then another 5 on the other and now you have yourself a highly challenging match.

 

[SpicyTime]

Which is not really one of LoL's strengths, though I don't personally have experience with HoN or DotA it sounds like they're all fairly similar. With so few abilities cooldown management is a non issue. In a fight you essentially use all your non ult CDs as much as possible, and at least a lot of characters just use their ult as early as possible as well.

This is the root of the problem right here. You're saying the MOBA genre has a low skill cap, yet you only play LoL (arguably the MOBA with the lowest skill cap).

Yes, each hero only has 4 skills, but managing their cooldowns, mana, and timings is very complex, especially since you have to use your 4 skills in combination with your allies' 4 skills, and in response to the enemy's 4 skills.

Simple example: You're playing a tanky hero, and 2 underleveled enemy heroes (using heroes with one stun each) run up to you and unload all their spells, putting you at 1/3 life. From a faraway ward, you see a third enemy hero coming along your retreat path. What do you do? Well in DotA/HoN, you would use your teleport scroll / homecoming stone to get out of there, since you know that your enemies used all their stuns and can't break your teleport channel.

This mechanic doesn't show up in LoL, among other things. Point being that LoL has a lower skill cap; you only play LoL, yet you're making a skill cap judgment about the entire genre without having played the other games at a higher level.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

This mechanic doesn't show up in LoL, among other things. Point being that LoL has a lower skill cap; you only play LoL, yet you're making a skill cap judgment about the entire genre without having played the other games at a higher level.

Uh, if you're worried about that situation you take teleport and now you can do exactly what you described, or you use flash (what you probably have) to avert the gank in the first place.

 

[SpicyTime]

Uh, if you're worried about that situation you take teleport and now you can do exactly what you described, or you use flash (what you probably have) to avert the gank in the first place.

You're missing the point of the example, which is to illustrate cooldown management, not escaping ganks (although the example does show how to escape a gank). In DotA/HoN, to teleport away involves channeling the spell, which can be broken by a stun. If you know that the only two enemy heroes in range have their stuns on cooldown, then you are safe to teleport away (assuming you still have enough hp to withstand their nukes and regular hits before the teleport completes).

 

[TridenT]

I played LoL for a while. I didn't like it. There were always heroes that people had that I didn't. There's also the runes thing which is stupid. There's no denying. Things felt really slow in that game.

I like HoN and play HoN because it is a copy of dota.

People who complain about last hitting and denying are ridiculous. It's there for a reason. People who say it's imbalanced towards melee vs ranged: Well, if you know how to use lane control it isn't...

 

[Chiropteran]

This whole talk of "skill caps" drives me nuts. It takes skill to play these games and do well, sure. But I don't for a moment believe even the simplest game is harmed by having a low skill cap. Theoretically, a low skill cap would be bad because the majority of professional players would be at the cap and all games would end in draws, right? Except that never happens.

The only game in existence that is adversely effected by having a low skill cap is tic tac toe. Until you are good enough to force a draw worst case scenario, you are not at the skill cap of your chosen game. Fact.

 

[Dumac]

This whole talk of "skill caps" drives me nuts. It takes skill to play these games and do well, sure. But I don't for a moment believe even the simplest game is harmed by having a low skill cap. Theoretically, a low skill cap would be bad because the majority of professional players would be at the cap and all games would end in draws, right? Except that never happens.

The only game in existence that is adversely effected by having a low skill cap is tic tac toe. Until you are good enough to force a draw worst case scenario, you are not at the skill cap of your chosen game. Fact.

No, some competitive games are affected by luck as well and have too many variables.

You could be the best possible player, but still lose to do poor mechanics.

 

[Chiropteran]

No, some competitive games are affected by luck as well and have too many variables.

You could be the best possible player, but still lose to do poor mechanics.

Too many variables? If you can't compensate for all possible variables, guess what? That means you are NOT at your skill cap. "Poor" mechanics? Give an example.

If the "worse" player can use poor mechanics to beat the "better" player, maybe the "better" player isn't actually as good as he thinks he is.

Luck is really a minor factor in most games. If you lose a game due to "luck", the majority of the time that really means you put yourself into a situation where you had a non-zero chance of losing or dying. If you were a better player, you would avoid those situations. In a game with vorpal weapons with a small chance to instantly kill, I'll give you luck would be a factor, but I don't think any competitive games have mechanics like that.

 

[crownjules]

People who complain about last hitting and denying are ridiculous. It's there for a reason. People who say it's imbalanced towards melee vs ranged: Well, if you know how to use lane control it isn't...

Last hitting makes sense. Deny does not. I understand why it works, but it's a needless complication that isn't intuitive (kill your own guys for your own benefit). You can deny via lane control which makes much more sense and takes more skill then simply timing additional last hits.

Luck is really a minor factor in most games. If you lose a game due to "luck", the majority of the time that really means you put yourself into a situation where you had a non-zero chance of losing or dying. If you were a better player, you would avoid those situations. In a game with vorpal weapons with a small chance to instantly kill, I'll give you luck would be a factor, but I don't think any competitive games have mechanics like that.

Crit and dodge.

 

[darkewaffle]

So you basically acknowledge there is more to the game then you care to learn (which is fine, I don't play it enough to do it either), however that in itself is a shinning example of what separates good every day players to the wtf did that guy just do player and how the fuck did he pull that off player. I'd like to think I'm just middle of the road at LoL because I don't play every day and haven't been playing that long compared to DotA. But every once and awhile I meet up with another player that literally makes my jaw drop at some of the moves and constant close calls they pull off (lee sin e.g.). It's one thing to do it once again, but doing it consistently all game is where the higher skill cap is. Now have that ability on 4 other people on the same team, then another 5 on the other and now you have yourself a highly challenging match.

Not exactly. I said I don't want to play enough to actually play or obtain every champion. Which has little to do actually learning about them, as that is done with relative ease after actually playing versus them once or twice. Hell I only ever played a handful of champions with any regularity, but that doesn't mean I didn't know what to expect from my opponents anyway.

The most impressive thing you can really do in LoL is lead shots and occasionally skillshot snipe, the engine really doesn't let you do much else.

Yes, decision making and estimation play a role. But they do in all games. And I think instead of giving all games credit for it, rather you exclude it and examine what is unique to a game instead of what is constant among all games.

I don't agree with the complexity of cooldown management. You have, at most, 6 buttons to press and that's assuming a character has a full 4 abilities and 2 summoner spells ready. You simply do not have many tools in your toolbox; and by design there's only a handful of effective orders to press them in. As I said before, nearly the only situation when you have a reason to conserve an ability is basically when you have an escape or a CC. Sure you could go without ever using Jax's leap or Gragas's charge in a fight "just in case" but then you're just pigeonholing your already limited abilities even further.

And luck of course plays a role as it does in all things. But I think the reason you don't see the 'draws' is because players are human, and so they're impatient and take risks and get greedy. I think the deciding factor for most LoL games is more often which team makes more mistakes than anything else; which is why people get so up in arms about 'feeders' who commit mistake after mistake, it can be quite damning.

 

[Chiropteran]

Crit and dodge.

I don't see how these mechanics prevent skill-based play. You must assume your opponent could crit you, and play accordingly. You must assume your opponent could dodge, and play accordingly. An unskilled player might ignore these mechanics, and suffer shock when he loses a fight because his opponent dodges an attack and crits him once. A more skilled player will take those possibilities into account, and only engage when the benefits outweigh the risk.

Case in point, hold'ems poker. The game mechanics are basically completely random, yet through skillful play a professional poker player minimizes the negatives of this random environment. Would you say poker has a low skill cap? If so, how do you explain the same people winning repeatedly and reliably enough to make a living, or even make much more money than you or I?