BIGGEST IN E-GAMING: DOTA 2 Tourny @ ONE MILLION euro prize!

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xSkyDrAx

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2003
7,706
1
0
I still feel that the $1 million prize is not going to bring a huge flux of new players from one game to another unless it's a consistent amount for their tourneys. Even then it will only grab the pro players as casual players will not be able to partake in those games. I find it particularly weird as it's a high profile tournament for beta players. You give people a glimpse of a game with a high prize but the majority of players, more so than usual, will not have access to the game. It's like watching who wants to be a millionaire without the chance of being a contestent at the moment.
 

AyashiKaibutsu

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2004
9,306
4
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I already explained why it's a valid GAME mechanic. It's like asking why suicide bombing makes sense. It's part of a game, rules are the same for all. Why does carrying pig skin across some predetermined line earn 6 points make any more sense?

Except it's more like why does the opposing team lose a point if your quarterback knocks out one of his lineman by bouncing the ball off his head on a completion... yea wait that's not a rule because it's stupid and doesn't make sense.

If you were arguing about how much gold you got for kills or something that would be a valid argument, but you're not. You're arguing for something that's counter intuitive (killing your own team for benefit).
 

RPD

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
5,109
600
126
Except it's more like why does the opposing team lose a point if your quarterback knocks out one of his lineman by bouncing the ball off his head on a completion... yea wait that's not a rule because it's stupid and doesn't make sense.

If you were arguing about how much gold you got for kills or something that would be a valid argument, but you're not. You're arguing for something that's counter intuitive (killing your own team for benefit).

You just dont get it. It's a game, It doesn't have to make sense. Make all the analogies you want it won't change the fact it's a part of the game nor does it mean games ever have to make rational sense.
 

AyashiKaibutsu

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2004
9,306
4
81
You just dont get it. It's a game, It doesn't have to make sense. Make all the analogies you want it won't change the fact it's a part of the game nor does it mean games ever have to make rational sense.

Lol, you're the one trying to use analogies to make sense of something that doesn't, but now that it backfires hey hey no analogies! and yea that you score points in a game whose point is to get a ball to a goal makes sense. To kill your own team doesn't make sense ever and simply shouldn't confer such a direct advantage. No one hears the basic rules of a game and thinks I bet killing my own team would be a great idea!
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
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Lol, you're the one trying to use analogies to make sense of something that doesn't, but now that it backfires hey hey no analogies! and yea that you score points in a game whose point is to get a ball to a goal makes sense. To kill your own team doesn't make sense ever and simply shouldn't confer such a direct advantage. No one hears the basic rules of a game and thinks I bet killing my own team would be a great idea!

The advantage of killing your own creeps not only denies the enemy gold and experience, you also can push your creeps closer to your own tower. Same as CoD used to be. If an enemy put my teammate into last stand, it was advantageous for me to finish him off so the other team does not get a point.
 

AyashiKaibutsu

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2004
9,306
4
81
The advantage of killing your own creeps not only denies the enemy gold and experience, you also can push your creeps closer to your own tower. Same as CoD used to be. If an enemy put my teammate into last stand, it was advantageous for me to finish him off so the other team does not get a point.

and it's a stupid nonsensical mechanic in either game, but the huge advantage it gives in Dota is especially dumb.
 

RPD

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
5,109
600
126
and it's a stupid nonsensical mechanic in either game, but the huge advantage it gives in Dota is especially dumb.

Ok finally the bottom of it. Who are you to say what is dumb? Apparently you didn't have enough skill to prevent or take advantage of said mechanic.

It's a game. The mechanic exists. GET OVER IT. Why does every game mechanic have to pass whatever criteria you set? Everyone has to deal with it so its not like its unfair.
 

AyashiKaibutsu

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2004
9,306
4
81
Ok finally the bottom of it. Who are you to say what is dumb? Apparently you didn't have enough skill to prevent or take advantage of said mechanic.

It's a game. The mechanic exists. GET OVER IT. Why does every game mechanic have to pass whatever criteria you set? Everyone has to deal with it so its not like its unfair.

Lol, you always fall back to that? If someone doesn't like a stupid mechanic that you've become attached to it must be because they couldn't deal with it right? Keep failing.
 

Jschmuck2

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
5,623
3
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Did you buy lifesteal on Windrunner and got flamed by everyone where you rage quit?

Dota has the worst community known to mankind. Having a bowl of molten metal poured into your recently gouged out eye socket would be better than spending two minutes with anyone who plays DOTA. They are the dregs of the internet and should be avoided like the fucking Hanta virus.

FTFY
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,992
31,551
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so is it using regular WC 3 units and buildings and maps with an entirely different play style?
 

Glitchny

Diamond Member
Sep 4, 2002
5,679
1
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so is it using regular WC 3 units and buildings and maps with an entirely different play style?

Yes, you can also look at League of Legends which is a free to play game in the style of DOTA. Pretty popular and probably the easiest on new players.
 

RPD

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
5,109
600
126
Lol, you always fall back to that? If someone doesn't like a stupid mechanic that you've become attached to it must be because they couldn't deal with it right? Keep failing.

Ok you are the one posting in a thread about a game you didn't like and a mechanic you didn't like. If I'm failing you clearly are winning! :thumbsup:

Edit - I'll try try to explain it one last time. Games are a set of known rules and goals that when playing everyone is aware of and agrees on. You don't just play a game and change the rules. Rules are arbitrary. Your opinion of the mechanic is irrelevant to the game and pre-determined set of rules and goals.

You know I don't really like how I can't stand in the key for 3 seconds in basketball, so fuck it I'm just going to bitch about it. If fact I am going to find a tech message board, find the NBA rules sub forum and complain about that rule there because I don't like it.
 
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smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
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Lol, you always fall back to that? If someone doesn't like a stupid mechanic that you've become attached to it must be because they couldn't deal with it right? Keep failing.

I don't find it a stupid mechanic. Having the ability to deny your enemy experience and gold is a very valuable tool when the laning phase is so important. Once your team has the advantage both level and gold wise, it can have a significant impact on the outcome. Disliking a mechanic doesn't make it stupid. You can play LoL and not worry about that like the rest of the people who can't take it.


As far as the DotA patch, I hadn't heard anything about that. That is really cool, except I think a lot of people have moved on. I am just glad I purchased a HoN account before they went F2P because nobody can get a legacy account for $10 as I did.
 

Firsttime

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2005
2,517
0
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The melee vs. ranged argument is something I've never gotten. Melee are typically stronger in a Dota solo lane. Their animations are far superior for last hitting. You see this in who gets sent to mid lanes, Beastmaster is a viable lane against Shadowfiend, one of the strongest ranged laners in the game. Sven can solo a lane easier then most ranged, as can Centaur. Weaker melee get matched with strong support ranged heroes. Or vis versa, a weak solo laner like Lina with a horrible attack animation is a natural partner for someone like Sven. In competitive Dota melees solo all the time. They aren't weaker unless the person playing them is weaker. In addition, melee are given more xp from a creep that is denied then a ranged hero. So that further balances out any discrepancies.

Denying is less about the XP and more about the gold and lane control. The ability to control the flow of the lane is huge in Dota, compared to say LoL. It isn't an "anti fun" mechanic. You are encouraged to place your auto attacks in a way that best allows you to last hit as many creeps as possible instead of just your own. Dota lanes were always more of a chess battle where LoL lanes are more of a grindy farm fest. This is coming from someone who enjoys LoL.
 

AyashiKaibutsu

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2004
9,306
4
81
I don't find it a stupid mechanic. Having the ability to deny your enemy experience and gold is a very valuable tool when the laning phase is so important. Once your team has the advantage both level and gold wise, it can have a significant impact on the outcome. Disliking a mechanic doesn't make it stupid. You can play LoL and not worry about that like the rest of the people who can't take it.


As far as the DotA patch, I hadn't heard anything about that. That is really cool, except I think a lot of people have moved on. I am just glad I purchased a HoN account before they went F2P because nobody can get a legacy account for $10 as I did.

Yes, I much rather play a game like LoL where the key to denying your enemies gold/xp is to harass them. You know something that actually makes logical sense. It's not dumb because I don't like it. It's dumb because it's obtuse and irrational and that's why I dislike it.
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,395
1,189
126
I don't find it a stupid mechanic. Having the ability to deny your enemy experience and gold is a very valuable tool when the laning phase is so important. Once your team has the advantage both level and gold wise, it can have a significant impact on the outcome. Disliking a mechanic doesn't make it stupid. You can play LoL and not worry about that like the rest of the people who can't take it.


As far as the DotA patch, I hadn't heard anything about that. That is really cool, except I think a lot of people have moved on. I am just glad I purchased a HoN account before they went F2P because nobody can get a legacy account for $10 as I did.

LoL and HoN dominate the US market yes, but fuckton of Europe and Asia still play original Dota. I don't have the exact numbers, but I'm very sure they were at least 5x bigger than LoL & HoN COMBINED.

They're ALL hopping to DOTA 2, the true sequel by their very own Icefrog with QA of Valve.
 

Glitchny

Diamond Member
Sep 4, 2002
5,679
1
0
LoL and HoN dominate the US market yes, but fuckton of Europe and Asia still play original Dota. I don't have the exact numbers, but I'm very sure they were at least 5x bigger than LoL & HoN COMBINED.

They're ALL hopping to DOTA 2, the true sequel by their very own Icefrog with QA of Valve.

I'd really like to see numbers showing that 75million people play DOTA still. Since that would be 5x LoL current number of registered users.

hell or even 7million players daily since that is roughly 5x the amount of people playing LoL every day.
 
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Necrolezbeast

Senior member
Apr 11, 2002
838
0
0
Except it's more like why does the opposing team lose a point if your quarterback knocks out one of his lineman by bouncing the ball off his head on a completion... yea wait that's not a rule because it's stupid and doesn't make sense.

If you were arguing about how much gold you got for kills or something that would be a valid argument, but you're not. You're arguing for something that's counter intuitive (killing your own team for benefit).

Throw in a new dynamic to football... if the other team gets to your 25 yard line, your goal posts start shooting RPG's at the opposing teams players... See by causing the other teams creeps to push within your tower gives you more ability to harass, last hit, deny, gain exp while making sure the other teams hero has to stay out of exp range... Just because you don't like the feature doesn't make it bad, nor does it make it good that some people like it.. like has been stated, trying to make sense out of an irrational rule in an irrational game is retarded. It is what it is, because it is... players, especially pros have adopted this and definitely like the ability to deny their own creeps...

One thing I don't understand is that you think that people are only attacking the creeps, enemies and their own, during the laning phase... I play and watch a lot of HoN, there is quite a bit of hero harassing to go with it, and often times a lane is won because someone has the ability to harass better than the opposing team. In a competitive games aren't won by mastering one aspect of the game, they are won by mastering all aspects of the game.
 

HomerX

Member
Mar 2, 2010
184
0
0
No Interest in Dota because its a Team game...
I hate relying on some dudes i don't know...
and its so fucking hard to find players who are as skilled as i am :cool:
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
No Interest in Dota because its a Team game...
I hate relying on some dudes i don't know...
and its so fucking hard to find players who are as skilled as i am :cool:

DotA is a game where if one person is terrible, you can lose easily. Someone feeding the other team, or just making poor choices, really effect the game.
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,395
1,189
126
I'd really like to see numbers showing that 75million people play DOTA still. Since that would be 5x LoL current number of registered users.

hell or even 7million players daily since that is roughly 5x the amount of people playing LoL every day.

The number of downloaded map at Getdota.com is 12-15 mil in US alone. And another equal in Europe and Asia.
 

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
81
Also, this game genre has a very high skill cap, regardless if you want to admit it or not. If it didn't everyone would be in tournaments making cash wouldn't they? Again, just like any other game. Would you say the same thing about Quake, could you keep people suspended in the air with rockets continuously til death? No, oh well the game must of a low skill cap right?

Gotta disagree. I think these games have exceedingly low skill caps, and that's really why they've got so many players. Giving characters so few abilities and the emphasis on gold and gear really promote a 'any given sunday' sort of environment where even a small mistake can catalyze a team's advantage because character building is nil and power comes almost exclusively from equipment and levels.

I think this gives momentum too much influence and promotes a "winning induces winning, losing induces losing" style of game. Which is normal, you get rewarded for winning, but the problem is that reward is measured in that which grants power, incuding further winning. In most other game designs, simply the removal of an enemy (normally granting you an an opportunity for advantage, not an amount of power) from play for a period of time is reward enough. It lets you gain ground, play more aggressively and capitalize. But by monetizing the reward at the same time, I think it amplifies the momentum change.

These games play like a WoW BG that grants the winning team bonus attack power for every kill they make, or like a hockey game where you give points to a team for simply having a powerplay.

Of course due to the item and level limit, things eventually even out, but many games don't reach that point because of the problem.

I think the champions themselves are not designed with high skill caps in mind either, although they want to be in some cases. You can see this in the proliferation of champions (well, in LoL at any rate) whose abilities have secondary or conditional effects to try to compensate for the fact that each champion can really only have 4 usable abilities, and many have even fewer. Few actual character abilities means that (not always, but often enough) that games are significantly influenced by the Rock Paper Scissor dynamic (as are all games to an extent, but again this genre amplifies the problem). A champion like Katarina against a team with no stun or taunt or knockup (or silence? i forget) can be devastating. Same goes for, say, a strong carry against a team without an exhaust or a blind, or a mundo or a healer against a team without ignite. It's not a guarantee but there are a lot of hard counter mechanics in game, so again, 'any given sunday' based simply off of blind picks.

There's plenty of others too; there's too many champions, the banning system is a terrible idea (Would you have watched the superbowl knowing the teams were both arbitrarily crippled without 2 of their starting stars? Would the result still have been legitimate?), the way scaling is inconsistent creating "early" or "midgame" champs to exploit the momentum mechanics.

To me it just boils down to a series of games that pander to the RPG crowd by giving them items and levels but in turn they create a game that is inconsistently balanced and unfocused.