BIGGEST IN E-GAMING: DOTA 2 Tourny @ ONE MILLION euro prize!

[Beev]

Dota does have lots of depth. What limitations of a War engine? Now I realize you are trashing it while know zero about the game. It's okay if you at least know how the game works.

In the super competitive scene (MyM, Na'vi teams), laning phase reign supreme as to how good you are. It's amusing to watch deny & last hit each other, animation cancel, cancel backswing, fake front swing, etc. What does this have anything to do with 'limitation'?

I play CS quite well. It's a game that's easy to get into and hard to master. Once you play for few hours, you get a grasp of what's going on.

Not the same for DOTA. Too many heroes with different roles (pusher, ganker, carry, tank, nuker, warder, etc). You really have to familiarize yourself with 103 heroes.

It's similar to Starcraft too (except it's a team game). You gotta know the right builds, multitask your builds, micro like hell, macro well, know counters, etc.

Man, at least dislike something after you know what the game is about.

The War3 engine. Warcraft. 3. Warcraft 3. Good fucking god... Your second paragraph was nothing BUT limitations because of said engine. Those actions you say take skill (not denying they don't) ONLY exist because of engine limitations. Or are we talking about the unreleased DotA2?

For you to tell me I don't know anything about DotA is off the charts ridiculous. Get over the fact that I don't like the game, but don't tell me I didn't play it and its variations for 2+ years. Seriously though, your opening paragraph for that post was just... I mean I literally facepalmed irl.

 

[Chiropteran]

Am I uncool for not knowing what DOTA is other than it starting as a WC3 mod?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_cCsFU6pak&feature=related

 

[TheUnk]

Then you should be able to watch this and enjoy, as they're all similar.

Similar yes, but not knowing how each champ functions/plays there won't be much of a connection for me.

 

[Zeze]

The War3 engine. Warcraft. 3. Warcraft 3. Good fucking god... Your second paragraph was nothing BUT limitations because of said engine. Those actions you say take skill (not denying they don't) ONLY exist because of engine limitations. Or are we talking about the unreleased DotA2?

For you to tell me I don't know anything about DotA is off the charts ridiculous. Get over the fact that I don't like the game, but don't tell me I didn't play it and its variations for 2+ years. Seriously though, your opening paragraph for that post was just... I mean I literally facepalmed irl.

Uh, I know you're talking about War3 engine, wtf.

The laning phase revolves around last hitting and denying. How is that a limitation of War3 engine that cripples DOTA to resort to that game play?

If that doesn't take skill, then AWP camping does?

 

[Red Storm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_cCsFU6pak&feature=related

lol, I actually have this song on my phone already. For some reason I never made the connection.

 

[Chiropteran]

Uh, I know you're talking about War3 engine, wtf.

The laning phase revolves around last hitting and denying. How is that a limitation of War3 engine that cripples DOTA to resort to that game play?

If that doesn't take skill, then AWP camping does?

Attacking your own dudes. WTF? How does that make any sense? It was a "feature" of the warcraft 3 engine that existed so you could kill units to make room for new ones when you hit the food limit. DOTA players started abusing that feature and now so many years later they defend it to death because they don't want it taken away, even though it's stupid and unintuitive.

Last hitting, also dumb. If DOTA was trying to follow past MMO and RPGs, they should have made the money drop on the ground when the minion died

 

[Zeze]

Attacking your own dudes. WTF? How does that make any sense? It was a "feature" of the warcraft 3 engine that existed so you could kill units to make room for new ones when you hit the food limit. DOTA players started abusing that feature and now so many years later they defend it to death because they don't want it taken away, even though it's stupid and unintuitive.

Last hitting, also dumb. If DOTA was trying to follow past MMO and RPGs, they should have maybe the money drop on the ground when the minion died

Deniny EXP for opposing team, what's wrong with that? You're stuck in this mindset that's somehow inferior game play?

Your team can also expertly time-deny your hero from poison damage to deny gold/exp for opposing team, minimizing the loss. That added layer of depth is bad too?

Do you want no denying like LoL where everyone is a noob and can't distinguish higher skills?

Why don't we change chess that all pieces move the same? It's simpler right?

 

[Beev]

Uh, I know you're talking about War3 engine, wtf.

The laning phase revolves around last hitting and denying. How is that a limitation of War3 engine that cripples DOTA to resort to that game play?

If that doesn't take skill, then AWP camping does?

My mistake, you mentioned "some War engine" so I interpreted that incorrectly.

Maybe I'm just not being clear about the whole last hitting thing. In War3, when you kill an enemy, you get xp/gold/items. There is nothing implemented to make it "fair" if two players were for some reason fighting over the same mob. It just is what it is. The last hit gets the rewards. It's that way because in single player it makes no difference, but regardless that is the way it's coded. It wasn't changed for DotA, even though it should have been, so now it's a "feature." My point is that the initial reason for it being a feature is because the engine limited it to do that. It was not a conscious decision on Guinsoo, or Icefrog, or whoever's part.

AWP'ing absolutely doesn't take skill, I think we can agree there

 

[darkewaffle]

I never played DotA but frankly I hear it's even slower than LoL (which doesn't seem possible) but even if it were twice as fast it still sounds like a snore.

I tried to get my friends to play Bloodline Champions, which I think is pretty much the apex of competitive 'arena' style games so far, and all I get from them is the games aren't long enough and it didn't feel like they were 'accomplishing' anything and I was pretty much dumbfounded. I played a lot of LoL with them and towards the end as soon as I agreed to play a game I would regret it as soon as I was walking out the lane just knowing that the next 10 or 15 minutes would be spent doing hardly anything but clicking when minion health bars got low. And then 32 agonizing minutes of poking/farming/walking and 8 (optimistic) minutes of action later the game ended and the winners called the losers noobs and the losers called the winners tryhards and you do this ad nauseum while playing characters who have (at most) 4 abilities and as few as 2 in some cases. Man I just don't get it.

 

[Chiropteran]

Deniny EXP for opposing team, what's wrong with that? You're stuck in this mindset that's somehow inferior game play?

It makes no sense. NONE. And yes, adding nonsense to games leads to inferior play.

Your team can also expertly time-deny your hero from poison damage to deny gold/exp for opposing team, minimizing the loss. That added layer of depth is bad too?

Do you want no denying like LoL where everyone is a noob and can't distinguish higher skills?

Why don't we change chess that all pieces move the same? It's simpler right?

Why don't we make it so that whenever you attack a mob, the game pauses and you have to play games of solitaire until you win. This will add more depth and require a lot more skill. And then when you go to the item shop, before you can buy an item you must play a FPS much like counter-strike, until you win, before you gain access to the shop. This will test other skills and add so much more depth.

Except it won't make any sense at all. But I guess making sense doesn't matter to you, as long as it adds depth and requires skill.

 

[Zeze]

It makes no sense. NONE. And yes, adding nonsense to games leads to inferior play.



Why don't we make it so that whenever you attack a mob, the game pauses and you have to play games of solitaire until you win. This will add more depth and require a lot more skill. And then when you go to the item shop, before you can buy an item you must play a FPS much like counter-strike, until you win, before you gain access to the shop. This will test other skills and add so much more depth.

Except it won't make any sense at all. But I guess making sense doesn't matter to you, as long as it adds depth and requires skill.

Fail.

 

[BudAshes]

Why not just play wc3?

 

[Firsttime]

I love Dota. You can hate on the "anti fun" mechanics all you want. The community doesn't care. We were pretty intense and unforgiving, but that was part of the experience. It drove me to get better. This cash prize is just insane, I love it. Riot's 100k prize at Dreamhack kinda legitimized the Moba scene, this really does.

 

[Glitchny]

Then you should be able to watch this and enjoy, as they're all similar.

I wonder how LOL will fare after DOTA2 is in full swing.

I'm not into this whole LOL vs Dota vs HON silliness, but it is entertaining to see S2 and Riot crapping their pants with Valve throwing money at their sequel.

Roit has 15million registered accounts with 1.4million players playing daily, I don't think they are "crapping their pants" all that much right now. HoN on the other hand probably is, since that game is just a reskin of the original DOTA with a horrible community of assholes.

the biggest problem with all DOTA style games is the players. It's like someone filtered and condensed the worst parts of internet gaming douchebaggery into one gaming community.

Also "denying" is one of the dumbest things in dota games in general, makes me happy LoL removed it

 

[TheUnk]

Gotta agree with the hate on deny.

In addition to other problems with it, wouldn't it just make laning a melee vs. ranged absolutely worthless?

It makes more sense to me to deny the opponent with skill by making them b or keeping them hugging a tower, rather than the micro management of clicking on the minions near death.

 

[RPD]

Wow reading the comments on this thread, talk about thread crapping.

I'll just say claiming to be good at a game while saying you were good with hero's accepted as crap (esp for the time frame given, a pub stomper does not a good hero make) doesn't help further your point.

Regarding denying, who cares if it makes sense or not? If you want to sit here and debate what's a feature and whats not thats one thing. But the fact is all games reside within a set of GIVEN RULES. Being good or the best at the game means utilizing these rules to the maximum of their capacity. The game in question timing the last hit on a mob to get money (i.e. the economy in the game) was deemed important thus a FEATURE of the game (same said with denying). What is so hard to understand about this?

It's not your game, or clearly the majority of posters posting in this thread favored genre. So why are you here to crap in it and complain about the communities (not saying they have good communities) when you are just perpetuating the very issue you are complaining about!

Also, this game genre has a very high skill cap, regardless if you want to admit it or not. If it didn't everyone would be in tournaments making cash wouldn't they? Again, just like any other game. Would you say the same thing about Quake, could you keep people suspended in the air with rockets continuously til death? No, oh well the game must of a low skill cap right?

ON TOPIC - I'm interested to see how Valve implements DoTA2 and what balancing they will do when compared to LoL and just how polished it is.

 

[RPD]

Gotta agree with the hate on deny.

In addition to other problems with it, wouldn't it just make laning a melee vs. ranged absolutely worthless?

It makes more sense to me to deny the opponent with skill by making them b or keeping them hugging a tower, rather than the micro management of clicking on the minions near death.

When I read this I want to face palm.

It'd be like someone playing an NFL game and asking why do the Lions sucks?

 

[RPD]

Also I will add I do regularly play LoL and played DotA for a very long time.

Both games have more nuances due to the sheer amount of different heros, skills, items and team compositions then most people care about or will ever learn about.

They are NOT friendly for new players to just pick up and start playing. It takes countless games, hours of playing, reading guides/strategies to even begin to understand all the nuances. It's one thing to admit you don't have the time to learn them all, another to dismiss them all together. It's not like your typical FPS, you get a gun and shoot shit, get a bigger gun etc, where typically your ability to aim and reaction mandate your success >95% of game play. If you want to say I'm making this all up, then you've proved my point by simply not acknowledging all the complex aspects that go into every game and match in this genre.

 

[TheUnk]

When I read this I want to face palm.

It'd be like someone playing an NFL game and asking why do the Lions sucks?

Hardly. Unless the Lions all have bad shoulders and their only choice is to handoff the ball rather than throw it.

 

[crownjules]

Gotta agree with the hate on deny.

In addition to other problems with it, wouldn't it just make laning a melee vs. ranged absolutely worthless?

It makes more sense to me to deny the opponent with skill by making them b or keeping them hugging a tower, rather than the micro management of clicking on the minions near death.

Agreed. Done well, it can cause them to lose a level or two and get a few less CS.

Denying was in DotA because of the Warcraft 3 engine. Due to the cap limits in a game, if you wanted to create another knight unit and you were at the cap then you just target and kill enough soldier units to free up the cap space. A disband unit button would have been more effective of course. But the ability to kill your own units naturally carried over to the DOTA mod where it became a tactic.

There's no way in hell you can convince me that killing the units that are your allies is intuitive or makes sense. But now it's accepted so we have to live with it if we want to play DOTA 2.

edit: I think HoN has far more to fear wrt DOTA 2 than LoL, hence their move to F2P as a last ditch effort to attract new players and get as much money as possible. LoL has a different feel and if DOTA 2 stays pretty close to DOTA then those who favor LoL over DOTA/HoN won't switch.

 

[smackababy]

Anyone serious about DotA 2 is playing HoN because it is almost a direct copy. There were "limitations" in DotA. Tiny did double damage on some skill and they couldn't fix it. It just became part of the game after that.

To answer the question of why don't people play DotA instead of the other two is because I don't want to play in 4:3 aspect ratio stuck at 800x640 resolution or whatever DotA is at.

I will be getting DotA 2.

 

[Zeze]

Anyone serious about DotA 2 is playing HoN because it is almost a direct copy. There were "limitations" in DotA. Tiny did double damage on some skill and they couldn't fix it. It just became part of the game after that.

To answer the question of why don't people play DotA instead of the other two is because I don't want to play in 4:3 aspect ratio stuck at 800x640 resolution or whatever DotA is at.

I will be getting DotA 2.

Blizz WC3 released a patch few months ago and it natively supports 1080p fully.

Dota plays BEAUTIFULLY with sharp clean graphics, not blurry bloomy clusterfuck like HoN which I have given a try.

Dota also has the 'latest Icefrog balance' which includes Soul Ring item and Arcane Boots. HoN still haven't 'fixed' those.

 

[RPD]

Hardly. Unless the Lions all have bad shoulders and their only choice is to handoff the ball rather than throw it.

Barry Sanders says hi.

 

[TheUnk]

Barry Sanders says hi.

Retarded analogies aside, do you have any real argument as to why you think having Deny is a good thing?

 

[RPD]

Retarded analogies aside, do you have any real argument as to why you think having Deny is a good thing?

I already explained why it's a valid GAME mechanic. It's like asking why suicide bombing makes sense. It's part of a game, rules are the same for all. Why does carrying pig skin across some predetermined line earn 6 points make any more sense?