Best way to un-brainwash someone who just became "religious?"

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Snatchface

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
It is important to remember that this isnt any of your business. You are saying in effect "You are not thinking like me anymore, and I am right. Therefore you are wrong" Maybe she is right and you are wrong? Maybe she should attempt to convert you? No? Why? Because you dont want to be converted. Let her be. Don't like what she is doing? Too bad. What has she done to annoy you. Hurt someone? Commit a crime? You call it a cult. Your definition. Accept that people have different definitions of what that is, and move on.

If she started taking crack and spending all hr money on that, should I also "mind my own business?"

No, absolutely not. I knew someone was going to say that, should have known it would be you.

As I said before, If you're really concerned.. then you need to talk to her and the people around her. If she is in danger, then you certainly should do something.

How is she in danger again?

 

[The Sauce]

Ok, let's just let the whole bipolar thing go ok? I was just trying to make the point that there is a lot of overlap between psychotic conditions and religiousness. Now that it has been conceded, let it go.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: Snatchface

Originally posted by: dparker

Originally posted by: Ionizer86
Oh, an important point is not to equate religion to cults. Many religions are mainstream indeed. It's one thing to be in a cult and another to serve God. For those that are criticizing you for challenging Christianity or giving it a bad name, I have to say that you're doing the right thing by helping your friend, but it takes time. Her cult most likely doesn't let her read works by people on the outside, but she needs to do so to see both sides.

Cults are sanctimonious groups that are seemingly valid groups but are merely using works such as the Bible to cause their members to believe that the cult is right, while they may be breaking many basic Biblical tenets such as mercy, compassion, equality, and love.

I still don't understand the difference between a religion and a cult.

Exactly, someone explain the difference to me. Excepting that religions are generally more socially excepted and widespread. But they indoctrinate and brainwash same as any cult. My friends "cult" is called fundamentalist Christianity.

The thing is your BLIND and unfounded hate makes you unable to see the difference in the two. Add in the fact that you HAVE to push your beliefs on someone(your friend or other people on this board). That makes you 10x worse than ANY Christians I have encountered. You are the one with the Cult-like mentality. FWIW, I am NOT a Christian.

Yep... It's all realitive.

I am not a Christian, and I do not go to church.. yet I find your whole argument disturbing.

What does that mean to you?

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
Ok, let's just let the whole bipolar thing go ok? I was just trying to make the point that there is a lot of overlap between psychotic conditions and religiousness. Now that it has been conceded, let it go.

Nobody has mentioned that in the last dozen+ posts.

You're still skewing it in the direction you want it to go. Religiousness doesen't cause psychotic conditions.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
It is important to remember that this isnt any of your business. You are saying in effect "You are not thinking like me anymore, and I am right. Therefore you are wrong" Maybe she is right and you are wrong? Maybe she should attempt to convert you? No? Why? Because you dont want to be converted. Let her be. Don't like what she is doing? Too bad. What has she done to annoy you. Hurt someone? Commit a crime? You call it a cult. Your definition. Accept that people have different definitions of what that is, and move on.

Yeah move on and forget she was a friend, nevermind that these people are taking advantage of her because she is vunerable. You think it's your business because you are her friend?

That said, if she is just becoming a Christian and isn't acting weird like a Brain Washed Fund A Mental Case then you really shouldn't bother her. On the other hand if she is and you are her friend do all you can to dissuade her from becoming another one of their pawns.

Red, this is where I have to take issue with you. I know many "brain washed taken advantaged of" people who are more principled and dedicated than just about anyone I know. In fact while there may be agnostics and athiests who are just as good, in a humanitarian sense, I know of none better. Many of these people were troubled, and came to religion and were the better for it as they see it. Who am I to take away what makes them happy? Why? To liberate them with misery? No thank you. I havent the right. Yeah, there are the Falwells and all, but then I can bring up the Stalins and Maos. If he wants to be her friend, he has NO business in this, unless we are talking about where they lock themselves in compounds and drink cyanide. Otherwise, if he interferes, he is NOT her friend.

Well I guess we see it from two different perspectives. I like Christians who are and act like normal people like my youngest son who is studying to be a Minister (a byproduct of sending him to a Christian Highschool).

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Good for you and your son Red, and I mean it.

What caught my eye was how the post was phrased. No two people follow the same path, nor should they. Millions of people go to church. They sit next to others in restaurants, at ball games, they look just like "regular" people. They ARE regular people. They do not need to be "unbrainwashed". I would be curious to know if this cult is that or we are talking about an established church with a track record.

 

[AznMaverick]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
One of my best friends from the past several years was having a bad time with money/relations and while vunerable fell into the hands of these fundamentalist Christian groups and is suddenly a holy-roller. I realize that for most people who have been brainwashed since birth about the "big-daddy-in-the-sky," undoing this is probably a lot more difficult, but she is fresh fodder. It is simply unthinkable that she could now have gone from such a wonderful, free-thinking, intelligent person to another shuffling, brainless, god-spewing automaton. She has gone from having money problem to ignoring them and giving her money to the church (thereby throwing away her life and feeding the cult), and from having relation problems to giving them up and replacing them with her new cult (religion). It is difficult for me to even talk to her anymore because every time she says "Jesus" my skin just crawls. I try explaining to her that Jesus, if such a person existed, has been dead a long time and is nothing more than dust by now but the brainwashing is just too strong. I want my friend back...sane again. What can be done? I've tried talking, reason, intervention...but the fantasy prevails.

i think people can go overboard with being religious but calling all religious people "another shuffling, brainless, god-spewing automaton." is a little too overboard. i think that if you are a religious person you should respect their wishes and just let them be. but i see how you could see ti's going overboard with her giving away all her money, don't know what to say about that.

 

[Triumph]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
1.) Q: who the f&ck are you to make decisions for her...?
A very good friend. Who are you?

I'm someone who feels that she should make decisions for herself, and not be coerced by you?

2.) Your post is insulting to everyone on this board who is remotely religious.
Perhaps, but if so it is likely only because I make points that challenge the idiocy of belief in the supernatural and devoting your entire life to it.

No, it's because of your extreme intolerance for anyone whose beliefs deviate from your own. You feel that there is no possible way anyone could come to a solution other than the one you've come to. And anyone who does is a "shuffling, brainless, god-spewing automaton." You are conceited, pompous, arrogant, and intolerant.

3.)Listen, a$$hole, free thinking and religious are NOT mutually exclusive.
Oh...but they are. Sure there are things that you are allowed by your religion to decide for yourself; when to pee, what fragrance of shampoo to use. But what about the important things...right and wrong, good and evil. Although you obviously don't realize it, you have been brainwashed and indoctrinated by your church since you were very young. That is why you are defending it so vigorously. You take certain things as inherently right and wrong...and hence the church has done that thinking for you. To be truly free-thinking you must start with nothing and decide on your own. For the overwhelming majority of Christians (and likely most other religions) that is not the case...they need a book or a priest to tell them. And what's more, they need to threaten you with "hell" to enforce it! To prove my point I will ask you one simple question and challenge you to answer in non-religious terms - Why is human life valuable?

You don't even know how I was raised. You assume it because I take issue with your attacks on people who have some sort of faith. To answer your question - human life is only valuable as far as the scope of its effectiveness. Which is minimal. So in the grand scheme of this universe, it means nothing. But to our immediate situation, it is worth something, because we have to deal with the consequences of human actions. That is my current theory on life. Which may change as I learn and experience more of it.

4.) If you believe that, then you haven't bothered to talk to enough religious people.
Oh, but not true at all. I was raised in both a Jewish and a Catholic home where both were practiced. And in college I used to get a visit from the Jehovas every Sunday and usually invited them in for coffee and a chat. I used to get a kick out of arguing them into a corner. Every week they would come back with a new rebuttal to last weeks challenge and leave scratching their heads again...but they never gave up.

Ball's in your court, babe.

So all of those people are "shuffling, brainless, god-spewing automatons"?

I'm not even trying to argue religion. I'm just pointing out that you are an intolerant prick, who is trying to control the actions and beliefs of your "friend." What will you try to control next about her? Who she hangs out with? Who she dates? Who she marries?

 

[Moonbeam]

Hayabusarider, having just waded through the entire text of this thread, my sense was that from the info Snatchface presented we are dealing with a cult. Naturally we can't depend on his description as a valid one necessarily, or even that he didn't invent the entire scenario just for fun. But taking what he said as valid, since it's all we have to go on, the desire of these 'cultists' to separate her from friends and past acqaintences family etc is indicative of cult conversion principle. The control over money is also of the same indication. Puting aside the animosity and non-objectivity of the author we can ask ourselves what we do with somebody who falls in with the two general camps that Red Dawn wanted to distinguish between.

The question becomes, does a non cultist have a right duty of obligation to save another from being sucked into a cult. Someone raised the question of whether there was harm being done, the coolaid test. What is harm and who is qualified to define it. We might even ask if parents have a right to expose or shelter their children from this or that influence. We can raise all kinds of questions of whether we are interfering with an adult's freedom of religion or saving a vulnerable mark. Where you cone down on it I suppose is a question of how deeply you trust your instincts and how sharp they are. It seems absurd to me to think there are external devises we could use to gauge what is what. It has to be a personal choice. I can't see a black and white answer, no you should never interfere or yes you always should.

If we see value as relative then of course we are free to interfere at will. My values are better than the cults so I will save her. If we are absolutists we may save her from the devil with the same abandon. It all depends on whether we decide that we have a duty to override another's will because we see they as incapable of rational decision or whether we see the decisions of others as fundamental regardless of consequence.

What would you do with the Smart girl if at 18 she wanted to move into jail with her husband? Were is the line that tells you something isn't right here? Is there a line?

It seem, too, that a lot of the thrombotic reactions come from people who may themselves identify with the girl in this thread, members, maybe of some brainwashing system who feel a bit threatened.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

religion != brainwashing
brainwashing != religion

 

[Moonbeam]

Perhaps, ffm you have been brainwashed into believing that. My edxperience tells me that almost everything anybody believes is brainwashing because almost nobody ever questions who they are or how they got to be that way, mush less has relived enough of their childhood to have even the remotest idea.

 

[Triumph]

Moonbeam is ok with assuming, for the sake of discussion, that his friend has actually joined a cult, ala Heaven's Gate or whatnot. But I cannot even consider this a valid assumption. It is quite clear that Snatch has a vendetta against any and all religions. That is a very distorted lense to look through. Too distorted to come to any conclusions as to whether or not Snatch is really trying to help her, or just trying to force his beliefs onto her.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Perhaps, ffm you have been brainwashed into believing that. My edxperience tells me that almost everything anybody believes is brainwashing because almost nobody ever questions who they are or how they got to be that way, mush less has relived enough of their childhood to have even the remotest idea.

Perhaps, Moonie, you refuse to believe that I'm both religious and fully in control of my own mind. :light:

 

[her209]

Use logic.

 

[Moonbeam]

I understand that, Triumph. I offered no advice on this particular example, only more generally on how one can come to grip with this rather challenging ethical dilema. I choose to look at the data Snatch presented as hypothetically true despite his spite to consider it from the point of view as if it were a cult. I have no idea if it is or isn't or even if this is a real world case. Suppose he's irrationally opposed to all religion and she's in a real knock down grag out cult. Would his actions to get her out be less valid? We just did in Saddam on a theory. Are the Iraqis less free because of that?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
One of my best friends from the past several years was having a bad time with money/relations and while vunerable fell into the hands of these fundamentalist Christian groups and is suddenly a holy-roller. I realize that for most people who have been brainwashed since birth about the "big-daddy-in-the-sky," undoing this is probably a lot more difficult, but she is fresh fodder. It is simply unthinkable that she could now have gone from such a wonderful, free-thinking, intelligent person to another shuffling, brainless, god-spewing automaton. She has gone from having money problem to ignoring them and giving her money to the church (thereby throwing away her life and feeding the cult), and from having relation problems to giving them up and replacing them with her new cult (religion). It is difficult for me to even talk to her anymore because every time she says "Jesus" my skin just crawls. I try explaining to her that Jesus, if such a person existed, has been dead a long time and is nothing more than dust by now but the brainwashing is just too strong. I want my friend back...sane again. What can be done? I've tried talking, reason, intervention...but the fantasy prevails.

Well M,
I understand what you say. Objective external markers for determining right and wrong in this situation do not exist of course, but neither do internal ones. "What me have a bias? Oh no sir, I am completely objective" That prior sentence means that that person is self delusional in a more than usual or desireable way. That is why I posted the above quote. There is only one truth, and it is not hers.

While there could be a cult involved, I see anger and disparagment. Anger of course because of hurt that a friend would now adopt a way of thinking incomprehensible to the poster, but objectively (yes, I know a dangerous word) what materially valid criticism do we have here? The phrasing speak volumes. The worse thing I see is that she puts herself in a situation where finances are perhaps not going to be used for her greatest benefit. I wonder if the poster is irate not because she is wasting it, but because she is wasting it in a non (by his standard) approved way. I wonder if he was as concered for her financial welfare when she was buying too many CD's or clothes, or whatever. Maybe. Notice how after he says "replacing them with her new cult" he adds religion in parenthesis. Why? It reads to me that religion = cult. If that is his definition, then I wonder what another individual without this particular bias would say about the situation? Maybe his concerns are justified, but I see hyperbole. I see opinion, not example of abuse by her church. What harm is actually being done? Who's fantasy is prevailing?

 

[Moonbeam]

Sorry, ffm, I forgot you. Ordinarily I'd have to say no because I don't think religion and a rational mind are necessarily opposed, but since I know you from your posts I would have to say that I see you neither as religious or in control. You did once, I think, admit you were human and subject to failure, no? Anyway, just kidding. I know how you like to get in a corner and fight like a trapped rat, so let me decline the offer for now.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: ffmcobalt

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Perhaps, ffm you have been brainwashed into believing that. My edxperience tells me that almost everything anybody believes is brainwashing because almost nobody ever questions who they are or how they got to be that way, mush less has relived enough of their childhood to have even the remotest idea.

Perhaps, Moonie, you refuse to believe that I'm both religious and fully in control of my own mind. :light:

Hmmm, boy is this an opening

There is nothing wrong with faith or belief, but it must be able to withstand scrutiny from the holder, else it fail when most needed. As I have said, some people whom I most admire are christians, and have examined their belief. For them it hangs together. Do they understand everything? No, but enough for them to be able to explain their beliefs. That is enough for me as well.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

I'm tired of being called Brainwashed for simply beliving the way I do. But I don't want to get into this whole big mess; I'm sick of religion being bashed here.

 

[Moonbeam]

Good points Hay. I can certainly see wisdom in your reading and parsing of the test. I had sought to approach the theme more globally since I do think there are lines, difficult lines, but lines none the less. Is it a church of a cult. hehe. It's a rorshach test for sure.

 

[Moonbeam]

ffm, you are not brainwashed, you are not brainwashed. Look into my eyes, by clown blue eyes. You are not brainwashed.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
ffm, you are not brainwashed, you are not brainwashed. Look into my eyes, by clown blue eyes. You are not brainwashed.

Fvck you. :|

 

[her209]

From Webster.com

One entry found for brainwashing.


Main Entry: brain·wash·ing
Pronunciation: 'brAn-"wo-shi[ng], -"wä-
Function: noun
Etymology: translation of Chinese (Beijing) xina<hacek>o
Date: 1950
1 : a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas
2 : persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship
- brain·wash transitive verb
- brainwash noun
- brain·wash·er noun

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: ffmcobalt

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
ffm, you are not brainwashed, you are not brainwashed. Look into my eyes, by clown blue eyes. You are not brainwashed.

Fvck you. :|

Dude, relax. No one (well not me or moonbeam) is picking on your religious beliefs.


Doesnt mean people arent going to pull your leg though.


Heres a :beer: on me

 

[Moonbeam]

Well, these kinds of problems are apparently quite common as witnessed here:

jhu: my friend just joined a blood-cult. i don't know if i can reason with him anymore. ever since he moved off to college he's been talking about ritual sacrifices and how he worships baba-yaga. i've tried talking to him about it, but everytime he cuts me off and then puts a hex on me. (Best way to unbrainwash someone)

This was my answer to that particular configuration in the hope it will help here:


Well, generally speaking and as a matter of ethics one would generally want to have the person themselves seek their own health, but if and when it comes to chronic wasting diesase that becomes another matter. What you must do is listen to your friend. He has choosen such an out in the field religion because of his or her basic insecurity and starved need of attention. The more outrageous the better as in negative attention is better than no attention. So what you have to do is sit down with your friend and listen, but not just listen as is your wont, but to really listen with profound, focused powerful attention to every word she wishes to express. This is the puss from the wound squeeze, the psychic exhaustion of a pent up need. It will have the effect of letting go suddenly of a roap as in a tug of war. The bias of not being listened too will drain like an arterial bleed, perhaps not the best analogy here, but you get the idea. Then you must hold them for the inevitable gush of tears that will follow such catharsis. Hold them and rock them and say it will be OK. Let them mourn for their lost soul, for the child that died within and when they have mourned and mourned the pain will wash away. We float like bobbers in a tank of sh!t afraid to submurge. But we are trapped in an overturned boat and must dive to reach fresh air. Once the core event, the grief of loss has been touched the relief will be so profound that the chains of brainwashing will fade away. We are flys in fly paper because without our true selves we seek anthing and all that promises us some alternate surrogate erzots meaning. Good luck and lay off any snacks you might find laying about your friends place.