Best way to un-brainwash someone who just became "religious?"

[DanTMWTMP]

goddamn i hate these FVCKING threads..........nothing but flame wars and stuff....i'm agnostic ...well, more athiest..but i don't give a rat's ass what others believe in..they believe in buddha, find....belive in god, fine...I DON'T CARE......that's their decision and non of my GODDAMN FVCKING BUSINESS...freakin people just STFU and lock this useless thread....

 

[ShotgunSteven]

Originally posted by: Triumph
Moonbeam is ok with assuming, for the sake of discussion, that his friend has actually joined a cult, ala Heaven's Gate or whatnot. But I cannot even consider this a valid assumption. It is quite clear that Snatch has a vendetta against any and all religions. That is a very distorted lense to look through. Too distorted to come to any conclusions as to whether or not Snatch is really trying to help her, or just trying to force his beliefs onto her.

Perhaps he considers forcing beliefs on her to be his job, and is upset that they are horning in on his action.

 

[The Sauce]

Originally posted by: ShotgunSteve

Originally posted by: Triumph
Moonbeam is ok with assuming, for the sake of discussion, that his friend has actually joined a cult, ala Heaven's Gate or whatnot. But I cannot even consider this a valid assumption. It is quite clear that Snatch has a vendetta against any and all religions. That is a very distorted lense to look through. Too distorted to come to any conclusions as to whether or not Snatch is really trying to help her, or just trying to force his beliefs onto her.

Perhaps he considers forcing beliefs on her to be his job, and is upset that they are horning in on his action.

Nah, that's what the religious types are for (e.g. The Inquisition)...and they torture and kill in the process.

 

[The Sauce]

Originally posted by: Triumph

Originally posted by: Snatchface
1.) Q: who the f&ck are you to make decisions for her...?
A very good friend. Who are you?

I'm someone who feels that she should make decisions for herself, and not be coerced by you?

How do you know she was not coerced by the fundies? Is not brainwashing a form of coersion? I guess those American POWs in Vietman (in the example given above) really just wanted to become communist Vietnamese all along and just didn't realize it, eh? I'm all for making your own decisions in life, but if you fall that hard into some artificial organization then there is a serious emotional stability issue to begin with which may be clouding judgement. That is my fear for my friend.

2.) Your post is insulting to everyone on this board who is remotely religious.
Perhaps, but if so it is likely only because I make points that challenge the idiocy of belief in the supernatural and devoting your entire life to it.

No, it's because of your extreme intolerance for anyone whose beliefs deviate from your own. You feel that there is no possible way anyone could come to a solution other than the one you've come to. And anyone who does is a "shuffling, brainless, god-spewing automaton." You are conceited, pompous, arrogant, and intolerant.

You believe that I am wrong - a lot of explicatives have been expended in making that point. My belief that my friend is in trouble is different than yours and you are assaulting it. Does that mean that you are "conceited, pompous, arrogant, and intolerant?" I suppose that makes you intolerant to people who feel as I do. Try to avoid the double standards, they tend to make any argument seem somehow petty and foolish.

3.)Listen, a$$hole, free thinking and religious are NOT mutually exclusive.
Oh...but they are. Sure there are things that you are allowed by your religion to decide for yourself; when to pee, what fragrance of shampoo to use. But what about the important things...right and wrong, good and evil. Although you obviously don't realize it, you have been brainwashed and indoctrinated by your church since you were very young. That is why you are defending it so vigorously. You take certain things as inherently right and wrong...and hence the church has done that thinking for you. To be truly free-thinking you must start with nothing and decide on your own. For the overwhelming majority of Christians (and likely most other religions) that is not the case...they need a book or a priest to tell them. And what's more, they need to threaten you with "hell" to enforce it! To prove my point I will ask you one simple question and challenge you to answer in non-religious terms - Why is human life valuable?

You don't even know how I was raised. You assume it because I take issue with your attacks on people who have some sort of faith. To answer your question - human life is only valuable as far as the scope of its effectiveness. Which is minimal. So in the grand scheme of this universe, it means nothing. But to our immediate situation, it is worth something, because we have to deal with the consequences of human actions. That is my current theory on life. Which may change as I learn and experience more of it.

I can find no fault with that answer. Although I expect that it has made a number of religious folks reading this thread quite uncomfortable even just to read. It challenges the most basic religious tenet - the underlying denial of death and the possibility of nothing thereafter - and hence the futility of human existence. That fear which religion feeds on and so sublimely keeps deeply repressed. After much thought on the matter, I have come to believe that it is exactly the inability of people to deal with this issue emotionally which drives them to an emotional "wheelchair," as you will, such as religiosity. Unless you have a better explanation, and I'm open to suggestions. However, I must retract my previous comments about you. Clearly you have your own mechanisms for dealing with inevitability. (PS - you did not address the original issue of free-thinking and religion being mutually exclusive, though. I continue to contend that this is the case. Refer to the original argument above.)

So all of those people are "shuffling, brainless, god-spewing automatons"?

Perhaps that's a bit strong. I think it does apply to types like the Jehovas and Fundies who can not carry on a conversation without using the word "Jesus" at least twice in each and every sentence. Those who are so emotionally unstable that if they let go of their religiosity for more than a few minutes it starts to crumble around them. Obviously that's not everybody, thankfully, but it is those who wind up doing the most dreadful things in the name of god (e.g. 9-11, abortion clinic bombings...).

It continually astonishes me that anyone anywhere would want to be associated with people like that in any way, regardless how distant the thread. But in essence there is the same underlying mechanism accounting for it all, just with varying degrees of psychic import.

 

[Ciber]

Anyone who GIVES AWAY 10% of there income is smoking some really good crap or is just freaking insane.

You guys have any idea how much saving 10% of your income for 20-30 years is thanks to compound interest? 100's of thousands of dollars.


Lets say this chick makes 20k a year

10% of it is 2k

saving 2k a year at 5% interest compounded once a year for 25 years will net her $100,226.91

Who needs heaven when they can have money .

 

[DanTMWTMP]

Originally posted by: DanTMWTMP
goddamn i hate these FVCKING threads..........nothing but flame wars and stuff....i'm agnostic ...well, more athiest..but i don't give a rat's ass what others believe in..they believe in buddha, find....belive in god, fine...I DON'T CARE......that's their decision and non of my GODDAMN FVCKING BUSINESS...freakin people just STFU and lock this useless thread....

i'll quote my own quote....

why do i care u guys argue?..cuz it's taking up useless forum space.....it's hopeless argueing..c'mong what's the POINT?!.... there isn't any..no matter how much u guys flame each other, nothing will be accomplished....nothing but some dude hating the other dude..wow good job snatchface....mods should've LOCKED this long ago...

what others believe in is NON OF MY GODDDAMN FVCKING BUSINESS...and it shouldn't be yours either snatch....just grow up

 

[The Sauce]

Let's start over.
Since things seem to have gone way off track, allow me to restate the original problem. And I will not bandy words, nor will I make allusions to particular organizations which has seemed to offend people. Maybe we can get back to the issue at hand.

My friend was in trouble and joined a religious "group." Forget exactly what sort of group it is - it's simply not relevant. She was deeply troubled by some immediate and temporary problems in her life, and wound up discarding her family, friends, education, and profession (all things to which our society lends value) to become part of this group. Now, her value system has been entirely replaced by that of the group - that which she has been told by the group. She appears contented, as did Elizabeth Smart when she was found by the police. There is nonetheless concern that she is similarly being taken advantage of without realizing it. Can there be harm in this sort of thing? The Smart family seemed to think so - as did the entire country after she was found. Could Elizabeth have spent the rest of her life happy, living with that wierdo as one of his 18 wives - probably. Would that make it the right thing for her? You decide.

Allow me to use a medical analogy, since that is what I am familiar with. It is well known to those who do rehabilitation work that either the elderly or people with severe injuries need to be limited in how long and often they may use a wheelchair. Nobody wants to be confined to a wheelchair. However, someone who is losing their ability to walk becomes deeply emotionally dependent on the wheelchair and, if left to it long enough, some will simply refuse to give it up - regardless of their ability to walk or their potential to rehabilitate themselves. The wheelchair says to them "you don't really have a problem, see - you can go wherever you want with me....its ok." The problem with my friend is not her legs but her mind. Her injury is self doubt, fear of failure, fear of the future, and fear of death. The "group" is her wheelchair. I am afraid that she won't get up and start walking again.

Now to be fair, implicit in my initial post, right or wrong, was the assumption that all "groups" (read: religious organizations) are a "wheelchair" in a sense, and that belief in a "god" looking after us is driven by those same "injuries" as I have listed above. This seems to be what has instigated the emotional defense mechanisms springing up - onslaught that ensued. There is nothing wrong with using a wheelchair if you really need it, and if you are aware that you are using it...and as long as you don't try to convince the rest of the world that they need one as well. Don't look over at the guy next to you on crutches and think "man, what an idiot...he really needs a wheelchair, not those moronic crutches." If you are raised from infancy in a wheelchair and your leg muscles are atrophied it would be difficult, if not impossible to shed. And you would defend your need for the wheelchair violently - even to the death. I can understand that. But this situation is more akin to someone getting paralyzed in a car accident, winding up in a wheelchair, and you all saying "oh, that's not so bad...I'm in one and you're like me now. That makes it ok...don't bother trying to walk again, we need more paralyzed people around here." Maybe that makes you feel better but that is not what I want for my friend. I have to believe that she can walk on her own again.

 

[Isla]

When do we get to the part where Wile E Coyote and Sam the Sheepdog punch in their time cards and say goodnight?

 

[ShotgunSteven]

Originally posted by: Snatchface

Originally posted by: ShotgunSteve

Originally posted by: Triumph
Moonbeam is ok with assuming, for the sake of discussion, that his friend has actually joined a cult, ala Heaven's Gate or whatnot. But I cannot even consider this a valid assumption. It is quite clear that Snatch has a vendetta against any and all religions. That is a very distorted lense to look through. Too distorted to come to any conclusions as to whether or not Snatch is really trying to help her, or just trying to force his beliefs onto her.

Perhaps he considers forcing beliefs on her to be his job, and is upset that they are horning in on his action.

Nah, that's what the religious types are for (e.g. The Inquisition)...and they torture and kill in the process.

Atheists can be rabid zealots too.

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: Isla
When do we get to the part where Wile E Coyote and Sam the Sheepdog punch in their time cards and say goodnight?

What's that old fairy tale,you know the one where the tigers chase each other in circles around a tree?
These threads are kind of like that in a way,truly the arguments that never end

 

[The Sauce]

Atheists can be rabid zealots too.

An atheist never killed anyone over failure to hold their same beliefs. Religious people have done it millions of times over.

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: Snatchface

Atheists can be rabid zealots too.

An atheist never killed anyone over failure to hold their same beliefs. Religious people do it all the time.

I've never required anybody to give me money in support of my non-belief either

 

[The Sauce]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: Snatchface

Atheists can be rabid zealots too.

An atheist never killed anyone over failure to hold their same beliefs. Religious people do it all the time.

I've never required anybody to give me money in support of my non-belief either

Well said.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Snatchface

Atheists can be rabid zealots too.

An atheist never killed anyone over failure to hold their same beliefs. Religious people do it all the time.

give it time.

the history of the world is full of superstition and religion. they have been used as the basis for many wars.

Atheism is a relatively new concept. the idea or belief that there is NO supreme being is a relatively young concept.

but like everything else it will get institutionalized and there will be fanatical atheist just like for any other religious group and then these fanatics will start killing people because others don't believe like them

atheist think they are special. They aren't.

Also, snatch you keep talking about free thinking as if it is such a good thing. it's not. often times moral imperatives gives us the fortitude and strength to do the right thing even when we don't want to.

 

[The Sauce]

Also, snatch you keep talking about free thinking as if it is such a good thing. it's not. often times moral imperatives gives us the fortitude and strength to do the right thing even when we don't want to.

Oh yeah, you're right. Its much better to be forced to do something than to decide to do it on your own. Strong work. Thanks for the fodder...that was perfect. I think we can close the issue on free-thinking with that comment.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Snatchface

Also, snatch you keep talking about free thinking as if it is such a good thing. it's not. often times moral imperatives gives us the fortitude and strength to do the right thing even when we don't want to.

Oh yeah, you're right. Its much better to be forced to do something than to decide to do it on your own. Strong work. Thanks for the fodder.

yes it is.

you base your assumptions of this idea of each individual being a truly free moral agent. to be a true free moral agent we have to be able bear the responsibilities for our decisions. truth is, none of us can. there are too many factors outside of our control.

there is a law that says DO not kill for example. we choose to make this a law because we don't want people to act impulsively and kill people. truth is, if such a law didn't exist it is likely that more of us would be killing. the law itself does act as a deterant. me personally i prefer having such a law in place.

 

[The Sauce]

Oh and don't talk about moral imperatives. It's moral imperatives which have led people do commit such attrocities as the inquisition and crusades, and 9-11 without thinking about it on their own. Another crappy argument.

you base your assumptions of this idea of each individual being a truly free moral agent. to be a true free moral agent we have to be able bear the responsibilities for our decisions. truth is, none of us can. there are too many factors outside of our control.

Truth of it is, you can't. Don't try to speak for everyone. If you can;t regulate your own morality then that's your problem.

 

[The Sauce]

LeeTJ, you are exactly the type of person I was referring to when I made my original comment about automatons. Is Triumph around here? Come see! I found one for you. You see...he wants the church to think for him and tell him what to do. At least he admits it. Isn't that special? I am so pleased that you posted.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
Oh and don't talk about moral imperatives. It's moral imperatives which have led people do commit such attrocities as the inquisition and crusades, and 9-11 without thinking about it on their own. Another crappy argument.

and you would prefer the anarchy of the wild west?

it's one thing to discuss the actions of one culture vs another (war) it's another entirely to discuss the impact of law on a given civilisation.

we as a culture decided we prefered a society of laws (moral imperatives) over a society of anarchy (strongest survive). we choose to live in a world where, Killing is wrong. we created a system of laws and enforcement of those laws.

the fact that someone or a group of people from another culture outside our own choose to kill does not argue against the decision to live in a society of laws.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
LeeTJ, you are exactly the type of person I was referring to when I made my original comment about automatons. Is Triumph around here? Come see! I found one for you. You see...he wants the church to think for him and tell him what to do. At least he admits it. Isn't that special? I am so pleased that you posted.

 

[The Sauce]

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: Snatchface
Oh and don't talk about moral imperatives. It's moral imperatives which have led people do commit such attrocities as the inquisition and crusades, and 9-11 without thinking about it on their own. Another crappy argument.

and you would prefer the anarchy of the wild west?

Yes. Less killing that way.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Snatchface

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: Snatchface
Oh and don't talk about moral imperatives. It's moral imperatives which have led people do commit such attrocities as the inquisition and crusades, and 9-11 without thinking about it on their own. Another crappy argument.

and you would prefer the anarchy of the wild west?

Yes. Less killing that way.

and that makes you the poster child for all atheist.

 

[skyking]

I am not here to insult anyone's faith or lack thereof.
I think the behavior outlined in the original post is an example of compulsive behavior, just like drug addiction, alcoholism, or any other compulsive disorder.
I have seen people bounce between alcoholism and this kind of compulsion like a ping pong ball, many times.
It is just not healthy. The folks I mentioned above ( some of whom have died ), needed some serious treatment for the mental problem. Most never got it.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Any group that encourages you to help them when that means putting yourself fiscally at risk sounds suspect to me.Thanks but I'll keep my wallet closed and continue doing my worshipping on my pillow on Sunday mornings

Wow what a load of crap. When has a church ever put someone at a fiscal risk? Most churches don't even have any type of monetary reserve. Their budgets are based solely on what offering they receive. You are telling me 10% of your income would put you in fiscal risk? What happens if you get a raise and you go into another tax bracket? Someone needs to plan their finances better if you think 10% would put you at risk. Especially a PLANNED 10%.

If you are in the position that you can't pay your current bills then giving 10% is not a good idea,besides from the tone of the OP's post I get the feeling that this is one of those outfits that likes a much bigger cut of your assets than 10%

I feel that you have had a bad experience. In all the churches I have attended, those who could not afford 10% gave it anyway because they knew members of our church would help support them. One particular family was given loads of food every week as well as use of church vans for their family.

They are some of the poorest people I have ever met, yet they still gave. It is better for the poor to give little than the rich to give more.

and with regards to the 10% or tithe, Malachi specifically says that you are to give 10% of your INCREASE or as i define it net profits. Net profits are very vague so basically it comes down to 10% of whatever you can afford. doesnt' sound like it should put anyone in fiscal danger to me.

 

[shoeeater]

This post is extrememly popular and I want to throw in my 2 cents.
I am in Italy right now, on my 3rd month here actually....and I have travelled quite a bit and seen a lot of things. I think it is kind of sad what I see though. The best buildings in the cities I go to to see are the churches....no question. They are large and have great architecture. Most of them are absolutly magnificient. When I walk into a lot of them I can't even believe what it must have taken to make these wonderful buildings that tower above the rest of the city. They filled with all kinds of gold, stained glass windows, crazy statues and the like.

Then I get to start thinking about how these buildings were built on the backs and the pockets of the average Joe of the old days. People that didnt have easy access to food like we enjoy now. These people struggled with life like not a single one of us could imagine...and they also listened to an organization that told them that if they didnt give money to this new church that was going up in town that they would go to hell. They truly believed that by giving money they could spend less time in purgatory. I walk in these buildings and I feel for the people who sacraficed large parts of their lives and hard work so I could walk upon marble floors and the christians could have a place to pray. It is very, very, very sad to me.