Here's my thougth on this complicated issue... People easily dismiss ritalin and other medication as b.s. that's a substitute for good parenting - instead of you being able to shape and mold your little one, you're resorting to drugs.. Isn't spanking them similar? Instead of teaching them the moral and ethical reasoning behind a bad decision that they make, parents take the quick and easy way - a pat on thm bum (or sometimes much worse), not to teach them the difference between right and wrong but to illicit a Pavlov-ian reaction: do that again and you'll get the negative stimuli agsin... We're attached to spanking and feel that it's ok because it's simply culturally accepted - which is fine.. If that's how you were raised I suppose we as a society prefer to pass on these traits, even though they may be destructive.. We talk about the many cases were "I was spanked and I'm ok" but we forget about the flip side: what about the child that learns that violence is powerful and can be used to push your opinion? Is it not possible that many wife beaters grew up in violent homes with violent parents? Of course, I'm not saying that if you spank your kid you're going to end up with a serial killer... Also, people say that you can not reason with a child.. This is not true.. I've taken many child psychology classes and I've witnessed the amazing minds that these little rug rats have- they're smarter than you think.. OF COURSE, it's easier to beat someone into submission than reasoning with them.. Just like it's easier to feed a kid ritalin...
Jeff7
Lifer
- Jan 4, 2001
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Yeah, we're too worried about traumatizing the kids these days, worrying that every little thing we do might have some terrible impact on them. Thing is, if they are allowed to get away with anything, they'll pick up on this REALLY quick, because they aren't as stupid as some people think they are. Kids must learn early on that there WILL BE consequences for wrong actions, and that these actions are simply things you don't do.
Of course, kids will inevitably learn too that they can try to avoid consequences. Example - my mom used to have a bit less control of her temper than she does now. I did something bad, don't remember what, and she came after me. I knew damn well that she wasn't coming after me to give me a big hug, so I ran. She had to chase me around a chair, and I hid in my room and stayed there for awhile. She was still not happy with me when I did venture out again. Lesson learned.
I was usually a good kid though, relatively anyway. No serious offenses, just minor infractions I guess - moaning about things that needed to be done around the house, etc.
Just saw the video; interesting twist on that - wasn't expecting a condom ad. But anyway...kid's out of control there. A columnist suggested recently that children should have some degree of fear of their parents, and I agree. They must know that the parents are in command. That kid seems to have learned somewhere that throwing a tantrum will get him what he wants. Either that, or he needs to learn. So yeah, maybe give the cart of stuff to customer service (tell them if there's anything that needs to be refrigerated or frozen so they can take care of it) and explain the situation. Leave, and either go home, or just to the car, and "explain" to the kid that his actions are not acceptable. Maybe a good whap on the behind, or a smack on the face, and give a (loud if neccessary) verbal explanation. His crying attention at this point will hopefully turn to the unpleasantness of the spank, and upsetting his parents; hopefully it will subside then.
Of course, kids will inevitably learn too that they can try to avoid consequences. Example - my mom used to have a bit less control of her temper than she does now. I did something bad, don't remember what, and she came after me. I knew damn well that she wasn't coming after me to give me a big hug, so I ran. She had to chase me around a chair, and I hid in my room and stayed there for awhile. She was still not happy with me when I did venture out again. Lesson learned.
I was usually a good kid though, relatively anyway. No serious offenses, just minor infractions I guess - moaning about things that needed to be done around the house, etc. Just saw the video; interesting twist on that - wasn't expecting a condom ad. But anyway...kid's out of control there. A columnist suggested recently that children should have some degree of fear of their parents, and I agree. They must know that the parents are in command. That kid seems to have learned somewhere that throwing a tantrum will get him what he wants. Either that, or he needs to learn. So yeah, maybe give the cart of stuff to customer service (tell them if there's anything that needs to be refrigerated or frozen so they can take care of it) and explain the situation. Leave, and either go home, or just to the car, and "explain" to the kid that his actions are not acceptable. Maybe a good whap on the behind, or a smack on the face, and give a (loud if neccessary) verbal explanation. His crying attention at this point will hopefully turn to the unpleasantness of the spank, and upsetting his parents; hopefully it will subside then.
Kids are not adults. Hello Capt. Obvious
i didn't leave my post in there because you screwed up the quotes, but these comments were not relevant to mine.
just because you know someone who doesn't know how to effectively punish their children without violence, doesn't mean it's impossible.
i don't recall ever mentioning bribery...
for the record, i am not saying that it's not possible to turn out good children with spankings and whatnot... but we have effective methods that do not involve violence, that clearly work, so why not use those, and avoid any repercussions that may come from hitting your child? they take more time and patience, but i think it's worth it. it's the way i was raised for the most part.
Nothing says good parenting like slapping your child in the face! Couple it with a little yelling and its bound to work. Best of all, its all love.
Seriously though its disappointing to see so many people with the mentality of "it was good enough for me, its good enough for them." I was spanked as a child and while I think I came out reasonably non-warped I still think there are better ways than physical violence to teach children. Realize that while the damage may not be severe, there still might be trauma done that could be avoided by choose other avenues of discipline.
But then again when one of the most popular religions encourages violence with things like "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes" I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
Originally posted by: gopunk
Kids are not adults. Hello Capt. Obvious
i didn't leave my post in there because you screwed up the quotes, but these comments were not relevant to mine.
just because you know someone who doesn't know how to effectively punish their children without violence, doesn't mean it's impossible.
i don't recall ever mentioning bribery...
for the record, i am not saying that it's not possible to turn out good children with spankings and whatnot... but we have effective methods that do not involve violence, that clearly work, so why not use those, and avoid any repercussions that may come from hitting your child? they take more time and patience, but i think it's worth it. it's the way i was raised for the most part.
In an ideal world where no one is EVER rushed, where there are NO Schedules to meet, where there is NEVER anything burning on the stove, where there are NO Bad drivers in mall parking lots, where there is NO bullying, where parents always think of their children first, where parents have NO needs, where there are NO social pressures . . .
i guess i could see it your way. unfortunately it's not that way in real life.
i know too many parents who believe like you do BUT can't carry it out because they lack the patience or fortitude and basically end up NEVER disciplining their children. i think they would have been better off using a little physical punishment rather than NOT disciplining their children at all.
children require discipline and guidance. i have chosen as ONE of my methods of disciplining and guidance, physical punishment. I don't do it often but occasionally when the need arises i don't hesitate to do so.
you make it sound like spanking kids is abusing them, It's my opinion that NOT disciplining them at all is a greater abuse and it's also just plain laziness. they claim to not want to use physical punishment, but what they really want is to not take responsibility at all for raising and molding their children.
to me that is by far the greater abuse.
You should mention that when you used the word "beat" in your title, you mean it in a exaggerated way. Figure of speach...
I've smacked my kids. Sometimes they friggen laugh at me while doing it. WTF?!?! BRAT! They get over it. I had much worse done to me. And no I'm not scared.
People against child discipline don't have children, that or they do and they use verbal threats and mental manipulation. But trying to tell them that's wrong and it caused more damage in the long run is like talking to a wall.
I've smacked my kids. Sometimes they friggen laugh at me while doing it. WTF?!?! BRAT! They get over it. I had much worse done to me. And no I'm not scared.
People against child discipline don't have children, that or they do and they use verbal threats and mental manipulation. But trying to tell them that's wrong and it caused more damage in the long run is like talking to a wall.
So, your logic states that if someone doesn't spank a kid, they're not disciplining them and lazy. Resorting to physical violence means is lazier than anything, it takes no thought whatsoever. Kid is bad, yell a couple times, then break out the belt or whatever.
If you think my parents didn't want to take responsibility for how they raised me, you are sorely mistaken, and putting words in other people's mouths. You can't speak for others, so keep to speaking for yourself please.
I'm not against child discipline, I'm against physical means of discipline. There is a difference. You spanking people think that physical abuse is okay, and justify it by saying "I don't do it often" or "it happened to me" while you claim that people who don't spank MUST abuse their kids verbally, which isn't the case. Instead of "menatal manipulation" people like you mentally manipulate kids through giving them pain. Different means to get to the same end I guess.
To raise a kid without spanking does not involve mental and verbal abuse. My parents raised me like that and I was NOT abused. I know many more people my age who were physically abused than verbally. Not hitting a child does not screw them up, if you simply raise them the right way. How? I can't tell you, I'm not a dad. I was simply raised correctly, and without having to live in fear of my dad.
funny, i know families that have successfully raised children without striking them. i THINK they are living in real life, but i could be wrong. how do i check?
and what in the world do schedules, bad drivers, etc have to do with spanking? you spank your child because somebody cut you off? you spank your child because you are stressed? i'm against spanking in general, but that's the WORST thing you can do, punishing a child for something that isn't even their friggin' fault.
MistaTastyCakes has said all i wanted to say regarding this tidbit
If you think non-violent punishment can not be effective- the next time you do something "wrong" (speeding, etc.) imagine if the only punishments were either a spanking or a month without internet access... Think about that.. "No ice cream for a week" is more powerful to me and doesn't involve hurting an innocent, helpless darling..
HAHAHAHAHA
Innocent, helpless darling. . .
HAHAHAHA
I love my kids. there are VERY VERY few things in life i love more than my kids. but i would never call them innocent or helpless. You talk as if kids never try to usurp authority. as if they never test the boundries established by parents.
They do, No Ice Cream for a week, hmm, what are we telling our kids, that Ice cream is something SOO good that if we aren't good it will be withheld from us. I see some seriously obese kids coming out of this family.
Go to your room. So the room is only a place to be when you've been bad and when you are being punished, hmmm, no wonder the damn kids never want to go to bed.
Quiet time in the bathroom, OMG they are going to associate the bathroom with being punished, the poor poor kids, what happens when they really need to use the restroom?? oops all those bad bad memories. HAHAHAHA
disciplining, correcting or changing behavior, as far as i can see, no one is disagreeing with the necessity of this act. they are just disagreeing as to the method by which this will be achieved.
the old saying is, you can catch more bees with honey than vinegar. hmmm. but i'm not trying to catch bees am i??
i'm trying to take behavior by children that are deemed unnecessary, bad, cruel, lazy, or otherwise unacceptable, even tho THEY want to do it and I want them to correct that behavior.
Is physical punishment the ONLY means by which to accomplish these goals?? NO. I've never said they were and have NEVER claimed that it was the panacea for discipline. Is it ONE of the means for SOME of the types of unacceptable behavior by children?? YES, by all means YES.
to say one that uses physical punishment is just lazy is just plain ignorant. i take great pains and effort to determine which is necessary and which would be most effective. I think it is much lazier just to rule it out all together and say, I will NEVER NEVER consider it, because that just reduces your options and your effectiveness. basically you are to scared that you might use it WHEN it isn't called for and so you just rule it out all together. if you ask me, that's the CHEAP way out.
i've seen many parents that have tried that and everyone i've seen has failed. My sister, who is one of the best parents to her children of anyone I know, has never ruled it out. she almost NEVER uses it, but she hasn't ruled it out and agrees it is lazy to do so.
Sometimes we as parents are required to make choices our kids CANNOT understand. Guess what that's part of what it means to be a parent.
What's most amusing is, how you go out of your way to insult parents who choose to use physical punishment because it's soo easy to do. go ahead, fire ahead, it doesn't change the fact that I'm providing my children with the required discipline and child raising necessary to make him a GREAT adult.
Personally I think it's stupid to threaten anyone with physical violence. Or even the fear of physical pain. You might say "But I don't hit them hard enough for it to hurt!" it's the fear of the pain that is the real evil.
Yes, I'm one of "those people" who don't beleive in beating their kids (or animals).
I was whipped as a kid and will not do that to my children.
Yes, I'm one of "those people" who don't beleive in beating their kids (or animals).
I was whipped as a kid and will not do that to my children.
I am an adult and can reason like one. Children are not and, thusly, need more than verbal negotiations.
These statements are incompatible. You were raised so that you think the only way to resolve conflict or maintain authority is to resort to violence and you think you're not messed up? Think again, buster. You need help.
Calling people who don't spank their children prospective child abusers is absurd. What gives you the right to speak for others, LeetJ? What gives you the right to dictate why people don't hit their kids? People who don't hit their kids don't do it out of fear that they'll end up abusing them. You're simply using that unjustified opinion of yours to attempt to strengthen your tired argument. You've strayed away from logic and start making assumptions about things you don't know.
If you spank your kids, I don't really care. What gets under my skin is you trying to tell me and others who we are because of what we do and don't do. I personally feel that spanking is the CHEAP way out. Instead of attemting to reason, one basically gives a shot at verbal discipline "stop, no, no stop.. stop damnit" and then smacks. Yeah, good attempt at reasoning. No, I don't have stats to back this up, but basically anyone who spanks who's tried to use the "I can't reason with em" argument has quoted their arguments with their kids as such. This doesn't apply to all, but it does to quite a few people on this board apparantly.
If you feel like beating the bad out of your kids is the answer, then do it. Nobody's stopping you. I'm just sorry that you can't find the time nor mental capacity or creativity to figure out how to discipline children without hurting them. I'm glad you're proud of what you do, even though I don't agree. I won't stop you, nor will anyone else.. and your arguments are beginning to show less and less logic, and more emotion with each post. It's kind of like arguing with a brick wall.
You are correct.. every single GREAT adult in history was beaten by his parents. Spanking and hitting are nessecary to a well developed and bright child. Any other form of raising would be simply barbaric
I can't argue with this, for one reason.. you're using absolutely no logic, and 100% emotion. I can see you hunched over your keyboard, smiling to yourself, typing madly and feeling justified for hurting children when I read this.
Oh well, I quit. Nobody's going to change their mind about beating (or not) their kids. I've been outsmarted and owned by your amazing logic and ability to type "haha' in very large letters to back up emotion based arguments..
I agree. One of the first things you learn in any critical thinking class is that appeals to force are NOT valid arguments.
Your HILARIOUS. Don't you see, it's NOT ME making generalizations about people that don't spank, it's you people who are calling US barbaric, "slapping and childs face" (didn't i see that somewhere before)??.
actually, my point is the same as yours, don't generalize about how i raise my kids, don't tell ME that i'm being lazy because i choose to use spanking as ONE of the forms of discipline.
Calling people that spank their children as CHILD abusers is ABSURD, oh wait that works too doesn't it.
talk about tired arguments.
So we both have tired arguments
Ahh well. I'll do what I do and you do what you do and hopefully all will turn out well. I dun wanna argue anymore.. hehe.
Ahh well. I'll do what I do and you do what you do and hopefully all will turn out well. I dun wanna argue anymore.. hehe.
Yeah.. I stopped caring as well.. I noticed that many abused kids refuse to pass on the abuse (myself included) - others continue it.. Eventually, I think the cycle will end... Hopefully
I don't know how it worked but my wife could just start counting real slowly 1...2...
she never got to 3 because the kid involved would straighten up by 2. I'm not sure she new what would have happened if she got to 3.:|
she never got to 3 because the kid involved would straighten up by 2. I'm not sure she new what would have happened if she got to 3.:|
and just exactly what are we supposed to infer from this?? that those of us that DO spank our kids are abusing them??
this is EXACTLY what pisses me off and leads me to generalize about you people. MistaTastyCakes take note.
I could say the same thing. I was abuse verbally and mentally by my parents and have decided to end the cycle. the fact that i CHOOSE to use spanking when it is appropriate and i feel that it is better than abusing kids verbally and mentally. ooops. wait that arguement can only work for you right freedom??
talk about lapses in logic.
bottom line is, I take a BALANCED approach, your in support of an approach that says, ANY KIND OF PHYSICAL PUNISHMENT IS ABUSE. that's ur prerogative, i just think you are wrong.
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