Beating your kids

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Gr1mL0cK

I'm sorry all of you child abusers can't outsmart a kid

Gotta agree with this here. Not that I find spanking really wrong, but it's sad that parents have to resort to it. It's really pathetic that you can't outsmart your kid, and be able to set boundaries through non-physical means.

The problem is that outsmarting is not relevant.

Child- I want that.

You- How about this?

Child= I want that.

You- No that is not good for you

Child= I want that.

You- No Johnnie, you cannot have it.

Child- I want that. (gets louder)

You- Maybe another time. Hey, tell me about (insert distracting phrase of your choice)

Child- I WANT THAT

You- No, and if you do not behave (threatens withholding of anything you can come up with)

Child- IIIIII WWWAAAAANNNNNTTTTT TTTHHHHAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Now kicks and screams)

--------------------

Ok, now the ball is in your court. The child cannot be distracted or verbally threatened because it does not hear what you say. It can hear only one thing "OK, you can have it" Little Johnny knows only one mantra. "I want that" There is no outsmarting determined 4 year old stubbornness. Oh, yes you can win most of the time, but when it comes down to it, the child is a person with a very self centered attitude. They are not born altruistic. If it were otherwise, the species would have died out long ago. The expression of want, and pushing for dominance is hardwired into children. Some express it more strongly than others. No matter what, you are the parent and not the childs friend. Your yes needs to be yes and no has to mean no. Sometimes that means enforcing rules in other ways than you might like. It depends on the situation and child.

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider

Originally posted by: Gr1mL0cK

I'm sorry all of you child abusers can't outsmart a kid

Gotta agree with this here. Not that I find spanking really wrong, but it's sad that parents have to resort to it. It's really pathetic that you can't outsmart your kid, and be able to set boundaries through non-physical means.

The problem is that outsmarting is not relevant.

Child- I want that.

You- How about this?

Child= I want that.

You- No that is not good for you

Child= I want that.

You- No Johnnie, you cannot have it.

Child- I want that. (gets louder)

You- Maybe another time. Hey, tell me about (insert distracting phrase of your choice)

Child- I WANT THAT

You- No, and if you do not behave (threatens withholding of anything you can come up with)

Child- IIIIII WWWAAAAANNNNNTTTTT TTTHHHHAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Now kicks and screams)

--------------------

Ok, now the ball is in your court. The child cannot be distracted or verbally threatened because it does not hear what you say. It can hear only one thing "OK, you can have it" Little Johnny knows only one mantra. "I want that" There is no outsmarting determined 4 year old stubbornness. Oh, yes you can win most of the time, but when it comes down to it, the child is a person with a very self centered attitude. They are not born altruistic. If it were otherwise, the species would have died out long ago. The expression of want, and pushing for dominance is hardwired into children. Some express it more strongly than others. No matter what, you are the parent and not the childs friend. Your yes needs to be yes and no has to mean no. Sometimes that means enforcing rules in other ways than you might like. It depends on the situation and child.

This reminds me of a South Park episode:

Sit down! Shut up! And Study!

 

[LeeTJ]

it's like the battered woman syndrome. we make such a big deal in our society about battered women and yet there is almost NOTHING said about hen pecked husbands. Which is worse to be beaten or to be verbally abused??

neither is good, but we somehow make physical abuse to be a bigger deal than it is.

i am in NO WAY advocating wife abuse btw, but there are some women who's mouths deserve to be washed out with soap. not because they curse but because of how manipulative and cruel they are to their husbands and children.

it's easy to go for the obvious, it's much more realistic to realize that most things in life are not so black and white.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider

Originally posted by: Gr1mL0cK

I'm sorry all of you child abusers can't outsmart a kid

Gotta agree with this here. Not that I find spanking really wrong, but it's sad that parents have to resort to it. It's really pathetic that you can't outsmart your kid, and be able to set boundaries through non-physical means.

The problem is that outsmarting is not relevant.

Child- I want that.

You- How about this?

Child= I want that.

You- No that is not good for you

Child= I want that.

You- No Johnnie, you cannot have it.

Child- I want that. (gets louder)

You- Maybe another time. Hey, tell me about (insert distracting phrase of your choice)

Child- I WANT THAT

You- No, and if you do not behave (threatens withholding of anything you can come up with)

Child- IIIIII WWWAAAAANNNNNTTTTT TTTHHHHAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Now kicks and screams)

--------------------

Ok, now the ball is in your court. The child cannot be distracted or verbally threatened because it does not hear what you say. It can hear only one thing "OK, you can have it" Little Johnny knows only one mantra. "I want that" There is no outsmarting determined 4 year old stubbornness. Oh, yes you can win most of the time, but when it comes down to it, the child is a person with a very self centered attitude. They are not born altruistic. If it were otherwise, the species would have died out long ago. The expression of want, and pushing for dominance is hardwired into children. Some express it more strongly than others. No matter what, you are the parent and not the childs friend. Your yes needs to be yes and no has to mean no. Sometimes that means enforcing rules in other ways than you might like. It depends on the situation and child.

VERY WELL WRITTEN.

 

[MistaTastyCakes]

it's easy to go for the obvious, it's much more realistic to realize that most things in life are not so black and white

How is spanking NOT black or white? You either do or you don't. If you do, you've gotta have some belief that it's right. Would you do things to your kids that you feel are wrong?

Oh well, the whole argument is pointless cuz nobody in here is going to be moved either way

There is no right way or wrong way to raise a child. All I ask of people is to remember that HOW someone got to be who they are can be just as important as who they became because of it. The means is just as important as the end. People who spank, and people like me aren't really different actually.. I'd prefer verbal punishment (no, not abuse, don't twist words), while spankers may go from one type to another. Hopefully, when all is said and done, the two different roads we may take will both lead to a good place.

Calling spankers child abusers earlier was an overstatement and I apologize for that. I spose I'm just strongly opinionated and tend to say inflammatory things from time to time without thinking.

I'm gonna step out for now since I've got matters at the apt. to take care of, so take care all. This was the first debate I've read in ATOT in a long time that didn't turn into a flame fest hehe. Cheers all :beer:

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Most children who are spanked out of love instead of anger and are taught correctly aren't messed up at all. Hell, they're better off than the ones who were raised politically correct.

What a twisted society we live in.

 

[Armitage]

Originally posted by: classy

Originally posted by: her209
verbally abuse them

Now thats dangerous. Verbal abuse can ruin a child's spirit. It can crush their lil souls. You don't want that. Verbal abuse can last a lifetime. See butt cheeks heal within hours, but words can open some wounds that only heal in death.

My dad was by no means physically abusive, but he bordered on verbally abusive. And I can tell which hurt more ... lotta times I'd have much rather have gotten spanked then yelled at. I think kids that are verbally abused can end up with serious self-esteem problems. And I see it with my daughter. If I yell at her, she cries and then is sullen for a good while. If I spank her, she cries, then moves on. I think in her mind, a spanking is a reaction to the behavior, while yelling at her is a reaction to her.

 

[gopunk]

i'm opposed to letting kids know that violence is an acceptable solution

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: gopunk
i'm opposed to letting kids know that violence is an acceptable solution

By the definition of violent, you don't punish a child with voilence. You are correct. But violence and spanking are two very different things.

 

[Armitage]

ssigh ... I guess in my mind it isn't really violence because it isn't done in anger, and I don't intend to hurt or cause injury. I know that sounds very self-justifying. And maybe it is. I just know that in my situation it's effective where little else was.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: FFMCobalt

Originally posted by: gopunk
i'm opposed to letting kids know that violence is an acceptable solution

By the definition of violent, you don't punish a child with voilence. You are correct. But violence and spanking are two very different things.

i'm not going to get into semantics, but suffice to say, if i spanked you against your will, i could get arrested for an assault - defined as a violent crime

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: FFMCobalt

Originally posted by: gopunk
i'm opposed to letting kids know that violence is an acceptable solution

By the definition of violent, you don't punish a child with voilence. You are correct. But violence and spanking are two very different things.

if i spanked you, i would get arrested for an assault - defined as a violent crime

Yes, because you're not my parent. If I spank my kids, I won't get arrested for assault. Or abuse. By definition, a violent crime is marked by extreme force or sudden intense activity. It is notably furious or vehement. While it may be caused by force that is not natural, that specific definition can be applied to many things in life not even related to authority and consequences. It is further defined as being emotionally agitated to the point of loss of self-control, which spanking isn't. Spanking is based in love, providing a real consequence by someone of an age who isn't able to logically and maturely reason on their own instead of simply telling them no over and over again. They'll never learn that way. Atleast, not without ignoring that and learning the hard way on their own.

If you're "spanking" or have been "spanked" out of anger or loss of emotional control, that wasn't a spanking. That was abuse.

 

[dfi]

My parents spanked me, but not very much. Instead, I got punished with stuff like "stand in the corner for half an hour" or "kneel in front of the toilet for half an hour". Doesn't seem like a tough punishment but it's quite tiring.

I got hit on the palm every other day by from 1st to 3rd grade, by the elementary school teacher, for talking in class.

Anyways, I turned out ok.

dfi

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: dfi
My parents spanked me, but not very much. Instead, I got punished with stuff like "stand in the corner for half an hour" or "kneel in front of the toilet for half an hour". Doesn't seem like a tough punishment but it's quite tiring.

I got hit on the palm every other day by from 1st to 3rd grade, by the elementary school teacher, for talking in class.

Anyways, I turned out ok.

dfi

Dude, that's abuse.

 

[psianime]

Spanking, the great Asian past time.

-psianime

 

[Soybomb]

I see absolutley no reason to not find another resolution to the problem than to strike your children. What a positive messsage, I don't know what else to do, so I'll hit you. Even if it doesn't damage them in some serious way, there are always better options than violence.

 

[gopunk]

Yes, because you're not my parent.

that should have no bearing on whether or not the action is violent.

If I spank my kids, I won't get arrested for assault. Or abuse.

for the sole reason: our society is not perfect (not that it ever will be).

By definition, a violent crime is marked by extreme force or sudden intense activity. It is notably furious or vehement. While it may be caused by force that is not natural, that specific definition can be applied to many things in life not even related to authority and consequences. It is further defined as being emotionally agitated to the point of loss of self-control, which spanking isn't. Spanking is based in love, providing a real consequence by someone of an age who isn't able to logically and maturely reason on their own instead of simply telling them no over and over again. They'll never learn that way. Atleast, not without ignoring that and learning the hard way on their own.

all this stuff is subjective. you can sugar-coat it by choosing not to call it violent if you want, but the fact remains you are hurting that child. you are teaching that child that in order to get someone to stop doing something, you smack them.

i have seen children successfully raised without the use of striking a helpless child, so i really don't see the need to do so. myself, i was very very rarely spanked, and firmly believe that i could have been raised without being struck. i turned out much better behaved than most people, the majority of which were struck much more often than i. i have no reason to believe that there is any causal relationship between being stuck and positive behavior.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Just like you've said, gopunk, all of this is subjective. I will spank my children out of love. It is my belief that spanking raises better kids. Believe what you want. Justify removing my rights to descipline my kids because of a few kids you've seen all you want. My kids will be good kids.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: FFMCobalt
Just like you've said, gopunk, all of this is subjective. I will spank my children out of love. It is my belief that spanking raises better kids. Believe what you want. Justify removing my rights to descipline my kids because of a few kids you've seen all you want. My kids will be good kids.

my kids will be better

 

[Armitage]

Originally posted by: gopunk

all this stuff is subjective. you can sugar-coat it by choosing not to call it violent if you want, but the fact remains you are hurting that child. you are teaching that child that in order to get someone to stop doing something, you smack them.

Kids are not adults. Hello Capt. Obvious

My point is that the kind of motivations that work for adults, or older kids don't always work for young children. And sometimes what works ... what gets their attention focused on the problem is a little birch. And for some kids (like my daughter) I think that process was actually less traumatic then some of the alternatives we (unsuccesfully) tried. I didn't want to start spanking her ... the old saw "this is gonna hurt me more then it hurts you" is true.

i have seen children successfully raised without the use of striking a helpless child, so i really don't see the need to do so. myself, i was very very rarely spanked, and firmly believe that i could have been raised without being struck. i turned out much better behaved than most people, the majority of which were struck much more often than i. i have no reason to believe that there is any causal relationship between being stuck and positive behavior.

And I have seen children raised with more or less regular spankings that turned out great. And at least one that is a scew-up. And I know of a pair of really fvcked up, disespectful, undisciplined kids whose parents are damn proud that they never spanked them (family friends that told off my uncle at a picnic for disciplining my cousin). Frankly, those kids could have used a spanking ... now their old enough to need an ass-kicking actually.

What does that prove? Not much really. You need to find what's appropriate for you and your kids. But my bets on the kid that tastes a little birch when he screws up bad enough. And bribing for behavior is probably one of the worst thing you can do ... although I've resorted to it myself where it's simply expedient. Pick your battles.

 

[Armitage]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: FFMCobalt

Originally posted by: gopunk
i'm opposed to letting kids know that violence is an acceptable solution

By the definition of violent, you don't punish a child with voilence. You are correct. But violence and spanking are two very different things.

i'm not going to get into semantics, but suffice to say, if i spanked you against your will, i could get arrested for an assault - defined as a violent crime

And if I forced some other adult to get into my car against their will, I would be arrested for kidnapping

But nobody thought it unusual when I packed up my screaming, crying struggling daughter in the car to leave the park the other day.
again, kids are not adults. particularly at that age.

 

[Triumph]

FFMCobalt brings up a good point: A child is a blank slate. They don't even really know what No means. They do know what pain means. Many times you simply cannot logically argue with a child. Sometimes they simply aren't logical! A spanking teaches a child to associate "No" with bad behavior, by using something that is hardwired into them. It's like a computer; you need to address the assembly language first - everything else is built on layers above this.

 

[Red Dawn]

Until a child can behave itself in public it should be kept at home!

 

[Armitage]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Until a child can behave itself in public it should be kept at home!

heh ... by that measure I know some parents wouldn't leave home till their kids left for college. :disgust:

 

[larciel]

too much paper law in this country.. imo. just enough of spanking is good... but if you (the parent) can't judge how much is 'enough' for your child, then you don't deserve to... well... spank..

but we need to focus on the reason for spanking... young children need guidance.. and most of the times, they are not mature enough to truly understand what to do , and what not to do... (don't tell me anyone of you understood why you cannot slap someone in the head while he/she is eating a meal when you were 3-4 years old)

my 2cen.